PAL Mpeg2 from NTSC DV? at DVinfo.net

George Odell · June 27th, 2006, 03:29 PM

Premiere 6.5 will export to Mpeg2 off the timeline. I can take my NTSC DV clip and export to PAL Mpeg2 and it seems to work... but does it?

What do I have when I'm done. This sounds too simple. Is it doing any standards conversion or ??

Has anyone tried Atlantis (NTSC to PAL) and how's the final PAL quality? I need broadcast-quality Mpeg2 when I'm done.

Graham Hickling · June 27th, 2006, 07:52 PM

I'm not exactly sure what Premiere does in that situation, but it sure ain't going to end up being broadcast quality!

I havent found Atlantis to be that great either, though I only trialled it briefly. Procoder (or Procoder Express) would be my recommendation for a simple drag-and-drop solution.

The best results I''ve seen have come from either AfterEffects work or avi synth scripts, when used in combination with smart deinterlacer plugins and/or field-interpolation plugins (like Twixtor)....but the learning curve for both of those approaches is steeper.

George Odell · June 28th, 2006, 11:53 AM

When you say After Affects, are you using a plugin to do the conversion? There is something called AlgoSuite for After Affects that sells for around $600 that is supposed to be superb. They require a $50 fee to try it for 1 week.

Have you or anyone else had any experience with this plug-in?

BTW: This Procorder. Have you used it. Some say it is not that great no matter how easy it is to use. I had high hopes for Atlantis but now I'm not so sure after what you said.

Any other actual users out there? Can we get top quality going NTSC to PAL??

Graham Hickling · June 28th, 2006, 12:33 PM

George, I've mainly done PAL-to-NTSC conversions, using avisynth scripts centered around LeakKernelDeint. Some discussion of this approach is here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=100788

I've seen good results achieved by others who used aftereffects with plugins. Not sure which - twixtor, realviz retimer and the algolith suite are often mentioned.

To clarify my earlier comment, my understanding is that Atlantis aims for a 'film-look' result, which personally I dislike. It may suit your needs however.

George Odell · June 28th, 2006, 02:16 PM

I'm wondering if there is a way to convert NTSC-to-PAL using still images as the source? If the NTSC video is first exported as a series of still images (say BMP's) and then opened in Premiere under a PAL project setting...

Premiere will adjust the pics to fit the new frame size and the rest is rendering to Mpeg2, correct? Would this not work?

I assume the audio would be the hard part. It would probably be out of sync. Don't know.

My Canopus ADVC110 is supposed to work with PAL if I select that on the internal switches. I have a NTSC/PAL monitor to connect to the output so that looks promising.

It is worth a try?

Graham Hickling · June 28th, 2006, 03:44 PM

That will work, sort of - unfortunately motion wont be smooth. You will have 59.95 pictures each second (one per NTSC field) and you'll have to get rid of 9.95 of them to get to 50 fields per second required for PAL's 25frames per second.

If you simply drop fields (or even worse frames) your pans etc become jerky....sometimes called studder/stutter.

The two solutions to this are to blend fields together (e.g. Procoder's approach) or create new fields that are an interpolation of the adjacent fields (e.g. Twixtor's approach).

Audio is actually the easiest thing to fix - most audio editors can time-stretch a few % and indeed Procoder does this as part of its conversion process.

George Odell · June 29th, 2006, 09:22 AM

I'm doing a test with Procoder version 1. I will send it to my client for their input as to the quality and if it will be acceptable to them.

Field blending VS interpolation... Do you think the current version of Procoder uses the same technique as version 1?

I have this software program for changing speeds (fps) that is supperb. The best I've ever seen and it uses interpolation.

Graham Hickling · June 29th, 2006, 09:31 AM

Version 2 Procoder does have somewhat a enhanced format conversion routine over Version 1.

It still uses field blending rather than interpolation I believe, but it has an option whereby you permit the program to slightly alter the length of the footage - which helps reduce flickering.

George Odell · June 29th, 2006, 11:49 AM

Here is the reply I just received from Canopus...

"There have been improvements for NTSC to PAL conversions. We use field interpolation for the NTSC to PAL conversion."

I had asked....

"Comparing Procoder 1.0 and 2.0... is there any difference between the quality of an NTSC to PAL conversion using version 2 over version 1. That is, does 2 still use field blending as in version 1 or have you updated it to field interpolation or some other improvement?"

added...

I went to their site to download the trial version but that is marked as v 1.25 from 2002... not version 2.0. I have emailed them but I would assume the 1.25 version does not have the interpolation update to test it with.

Canopus replied...

"We currently only offer a ProCoder 1.25 demo. We do not have our new ProCoder 2 demo available or developed. The available download uses the older method of conversion. If you have a small file, I can run a test here for you, this is the only way at this time."

June 27th, 2006, 03:29 PM	#1
George Odell Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 270	PAL Mpeg2 from NTSC DV? Premiere 6.5 will export to Mpeg2 off the timeline. I can take my NTSC DV clip and export to PAL Mpeg2 and it seems to work... but does it? What do I have when I'm done. This sounds too simple. Is it doing any standards conversion or ?? Has anyone tried Atlantis (NTSC to PAL) and how's the final PAL quality? I need broadcast-quality Mpeg2 when I'm done. __________________ "the difference between an amateur photographer and a professional is the amateur shows you all his pictures"

June 28th, 2006, 11:53 AM	#3
George Odell Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 270	When you say After Affects, are you using a plugin to do the conversion? There is something called AlgoSuite for After Affects that sells for around $600 that is supposed to be superb. They require a $50 fee to try it for 1 week. Have you or anyone else had any experience with this plug-in? BTW: This Procorder. Have you used it. Some say it is not that great no matter how easy it is to use. I had high hopes for Atlantis but now I'm not so sure after what you said. Any other actual users out there? Can we get top quality going NTSC to PAL?? __________________ "the difference between an amateur photographer and a professional is the amateur shows you all his pictures"

June 28th, 2006, 02:16 PM	#5
George Odell Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 270	I'm wondering if there is a way to convert NTSC-to-PAL using still images as the source? If the NTSC video is first exported as a series of still images (say BMP's) and then opened in Premiere under a PAL project setting... Premiere will adjust the pics to fit the new frame size and the rest is rendering to Mpeg2, correct? Would this not work? I assume the audio would be the hard part. It would probably be out of sync. Don't know. My Canopus ADVC110 is supposed to work with PAL if I select that on the internal switches. I have a NTSC/PAL monitor to connect to the output so that looks promising. It is worth a try? __________________ "the difference between an amateur photographer and a professional is the amateur shows you all his pictures"

June 29th, 2006, 09:22 AM	#7
George Odell Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 270	I'm doing a test with Procoder version 1. I will send it to my client for their input as to the quality and if it will be acceptable to them. Field blending VS interpolation... Do you think the current version of Procoder uses the same technique as version 1? I have this software program for changing speeds (fps) that is supperb. The best I've ever seen and it uses interpolation. __________________ "the difference between an amateur photographer and a professional is the amateur shows you all his pictures"

June 29th, 2006, 11:49 AM	#9
George Odell Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 270	Here is the reply I just received from Canopus... "There have been improvements for NTSC to PAL conversions. We use field interpolation for the NTSC to PAL conversion." I had asked.... "Comparing Procoder 1.0 and 2.0... is there any difference between the quality of an NTSC to PAL conversion using version 2 over version 1. That is, does 2 still use field blending as in version 1 or have you updated it to field interpolation or some other improvement?" added... I went to their site to download the trial version but that is marked as v 1.25 from 2002... not version 2.0. I have emailed them but I would assume the 1.25 version does not have the interpolation update to test it with. Canopus replied... "We currently only offer a ProCoder 1.25 demo. We do not have our new ProCoder 2 demo available or developed. The available download uses the older method of conversion. If you have a small file, I can run a test here for you, this is the only way at this time." __________________ "the difference between an amateur photographer and a professional is the amateur shows you all his pictures" Last edited by George Odell; June 29th, 2006 at 02:59 PM.

June 27th, 2006, 07:52 PM	#2
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	I'm not exactly sure what Premiere does in that situation, but it sure ain't going to end up being broadcast quality! I havent found Atlantis to be that great either, though I only trialled it briefly. Procoder (or Procoder Express) would be my recommendation for a simple drag-and-drop solution. The best results I''ve seen have come from either AfterEffects work or avi synth scripts, when used in combination with smart deinterlacer plugins and/or field-interpolation plugins (like Twixtor)....but the learning curve for both of those approaches is steeper.

June 28th, 2006, 12:33 PM	#4
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	George, I've mainly done PAL-to-NTSC conversions, using avisynth scripts centered around LeakKernelDeint. Some discussion of this approach is here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=100788 I've seen good results achieved by others who used aftereffects with plugins. Not sure which - twixtor, realviz retimer and the algolith suite are often mentioned. To clarify my earlier comment, my understanding is that Atlantis aims for a 'film-look' result, which personally I dislike. It may suit your needs however.

June 28th, 2006, 03:44 PM	#6
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	That will work, sort of - unfortunately motion wont be smooth. You will have 59.95 pictures each second (one per NTSC field) and you'll have to get rid of 9.95 of them to get to 50 fields per second required for PAL's 25frames per second. If you simply drop fields (or even worse frames) your pans etc become jerky....sometimes called studder/stutter. The two solutions to this are to blend fields together (e.g. Procoder's approach) or create new fields that are an interpolation of the adjacent fields (e.g. Twixtor's approach). Audio is actually the easiest thing to fix - most audio editors can time-stretch a few % and indeed Procoder does this as part of its conversion process.

June 29th, 2006, 09:31 AM	#8
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Version 2 Procoder does have somewhat a enhanced format conversion routine over Version 1. It still uses field blending rather than interpolation I believe, but it has an option whereby you permit the program to slightly alter the length of the footage - which helps reduce flickering.