Editing HDV - Do I really need an intermidiate?

[Ben Freedman]

Howdy...

I have been doing some experiments with HDV and Premiere Pro 2.0 on a very fast dual-Operton machine...

My question is: Do I really need cineform or another intermeidate? I've used them before on lesser machines to improve frame rate on preview, but this computer can handle HDV with transitions without slowing down one bit...

Regarding Long-GOP and compression, it seems that Premiere handles cuts well, regardless of which frame I'm on, and disolves are smooth throughout.

Output to WMV 720p looks good to me, and while render times are still long, that's what overnights are for...

Again, I've used cineform with Vegas because editing HDV is very painful, but with this computer, the actual editing is painless, and the render quality seems good. I notice that HDV on the timeline doesn't even show the 'red render bar', so Premiere seems to handle it very nicely.

Finally, I'm not doing any really complicated effects. 99% of the time, it's straight cuts or dissolves.

Any thoughts?

Best,

Benjamin


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[Chris Barcellos]

Check out this thread, where you will get a good taste of the arguments.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=68733&page=4


You will see the Pro's Pros have no use for HDV 'native" editing.

Like you, I have been using PPro 2.0 to edit native HDV, and have been happy with the results for the most part. I'm not using my HDV stuff professionally, so this is a good way, in my mind to learn to start working with HDV.

If I was in a heavy production situation, I have no doubt I would go to an intermediate.

Then again, with a whole new codec on the horizon from Sony and Panosonic, I think a wait and see attitude is a good idea.

[Ben Freedman]

Hi, Chris...

It sounds like you may have a case of the 'pros'. :-) Just because the 'pros' do it, doesn't make it any better...

I'm not sure what you consider to be a 'heavy production' environment, but you didn't actually give any real reasons why an intermediate is any better for basic editing.

Sure, if you're doing a lot of effects or compositing, across generations, I can see the argument, but most of what I do is straight cuts or dissolves...

Any actual reasons why an intermediate is any better?

Best,

Benjamin

[Ben Freedman]

I read that thread, and posted this:

Here's what I don't understand...

There are 3 benefits to an intermediate, as I understand it:

1) Improved workflow on slower machines
2) No GOP issues
3) Less compression, therefore fewer artifacts on recompression...

Let's assume we're going to edit on a wicked fast machine (dual opteron), so #1 isn't an issue...

Let's assume we're editing directly from the HDV files to the final format in 1 generation. Since we'd have to use this same generation to get to the intermediate, #3 isn't an issue (or not much of one)...

With regards to #2, I have been doing some experiments with cuts and disolves and other effects with PP2 and Vegas on HDV, and the rendered result seems very smooth and accurate, no matter which frame I start or end the effect on. In fact, has anyone had any GOP issues with native HDV in Vegas or PP2? I've heard all about it, but can't replicate it myself...

If #2 turns out to be a boogeyman, and 1 and 3 are not big issues, I still don't see the need to jump to an intermediate if my performance is good with HDV, and my editing needs are simple (cuts and dissolves, not heavy compositing, etc...)

Finally, many 'pro' level packages have been touting native-HDV editing latley (such as $10K+ Axios, avid, and others) so the idea that it's not something 'pros' want to do seems odd.

DSE? What say you? (Don't hurt me...)

Best,

Benjamin

[Chris Barcellos]

Honestly, I haven't had enough experience with the intermediate codecs to know there is a difference. I am told that in the editing process, the color handling is "better" using the intermediate. I think the theory is that given the GOP situation, you cannot necessarily depend on getting exactly what you edited for in the first place. Since the intermediates provide frames that are complete in themselves frame by frame, you do not have that possibility. I did notice in one transition I did recently, a kind of tinge show up for just a fraction of a second, and I am thinking that might be what is being indicated.

Besides Premiere Pro 2.0, I've also used Pinnacle 10 Plus to edit in HDV. I understand they use the same engine in that version as Liquid. The program has been a little buggy.