Panasonic P2HD and Premiere Pro

David Taylor · May 11th, 2006, 10:01 PM

We (CineForm) have an almost-public beta just posted for the next release of Aspect HD that supports the HVX200. "Almost public" means that if you email David Newman you'll get the link - it's not yet on our public site, and won't be for a few days. See the thread in the CineForm forum: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=67198 for details.

David.

Vince Curtis · May 11th, 2006, 11:54 PM

David - Is there any advantage of Aspect over Raylight ? Especially since Aspect is $300 more than Raylight ?

I have Raylight now. I use PP2.0 and Vegas on a PC platform. . . .Thanks

David Taylor · May 12th, 2006, 01:03 AM

Vince, first of all, sorry about the "missive", but I'll mention a few things:

1) Aspect HD is a real-time editing engine that displaces the native editing engine in Premiere. As part of the engine, Aspect HD has its own RT effects, transitions, motion engine, etc. When the Aspect HD engine is in operation, the Premiere interface issues "commands" to the CineForm engine. It is how we achieve performance that is about 4X faster than native Premiere performance.

2) Underneath our RT engine is our CineForm Intermediate codec which is designed for a multi-generation post workflow. Its quality is superb, and it has been used in numerous feature films. Following is a link to a quality analysis we performed a while ago comparing to a native DVCPRO HD post workflow: http://www.cineform.com/technology/H...lysis10bit.htm. That analysis was done with our 10-bit Prospect HD codec, but you definitely get the idea. For support of the HVX200 we convert the P2 files to CineForm Intermediate for higher visual fidelity through post and improved editing performance.

3) The conversion utility in Aspect HD offers numerous options for DVCPRO HD source files, including 1280 x 720 for native 960 x 720 P2 source files, and 1440 x 1080 for native P2 1280 x 1080 source files. It is then trivial to include files from multiple sources (HDV, HVX, etc) on the same editing timeline. There are many other user options available. In this link we give you a flavor of that: http://www.cineform.com/products/hvx...ort/hvx200.htm.

In comparison, Raylight is a DVCPRO HD codec with an AVI wrapper for use in PC applications. It replaces the P2 MXF wrapper with an AVI wrapper for broad PC compatibility. This technique is completely valid, and if the result meets your performance, visual quality, and feature requirements then it'll be a good solution for you.

But I think you'll find that for multi-generation post-production the visual fidelity result of CineForm Intermediate is superior to any DVCPRO HD codec because CI was designed for post, not for tape acquisition. And the performance of our RT engine can't be equalled with any other solution, including hardware based solutions.

You can try Aspect HD on a 15-day trial with full functionality to better judge for yourself. For the next few days you'll need to request the Beta release directly from David Newman as I mentioned in a post above. By sometime next week we'll have a general release that you can navigate to directly from our website.

By the way, our Connect HD is $199, and will include DVCPRO HD support in the next week or so. Connect HD has the same CineForm Intermeditate codec and conversion utility, but without the RT engine included in Aspect HD. It is targeted for all PC apps outside Premiere Pro.

Vince Curtis · May 12th, 2006, 09:56 AM

Thanks for the explanation.

I appreciate the HVX200 support for this product and future products. I and others I know have purchased the HVX200 for possible film out and film festivals, and your 10-bit products and HDLink Integration is great.

As I do most of my editing on Vegas, Ill look forward to your continued support with Sony also. . ..

Tom Lowe · May 27th, 2006, 07:07 PM

First question: Will this combination work? Cineform says its Aspect HD software will allow Premiere Pro 2.0 to work with the HVX's MXF files. But there is no specific mention of the FS-100 hard-drive. Can Premiere Pro 2.0 + Aspect HD import MXF files from an FS-100 drive onto a PC for editing?

Also, I placed this order on Friday, but I have since been reading some horror stories about the FS-100 Firestore device dropping out, not being recognized via firewire, and even catching on fire! I was planning to use the firestore as my primary/only p2 storage device on a 25-day feature shoot, but now I'm worried. If that firestore drive breaks down, my whole feature will come to a grinding halt.

Then again the P2 cards are very, very expensive, and not as ideal for a movie shoot as a 100-gig drive like the Firestore.

Also, what about variable frame-rates on the FS-100? Can I shoot ten minutes of 24p, then switch to 60p? It seems like the FS-100 has frame-rate limitations that P2 cards do not? Is that correct?

Thanks if anyone can offer advice.

Edit: I guess I could buy two FS-100s? Or maybe get the FS-100 and one p2 card to shoot variable framerate stuff?

Has anyone heard of the CitiDisk HD storage device?

http://www.shining.com/products/tota...on/citidisk_hd

It appears to store 120 gigs, is small, and only costs $1,100. I could buy two of those.

Robert Perez · August 30th, 2006, 08:44 PM

This is probably real noob question, but I've read such great things about this camera, and I've got such significant investment already into the Adobe Production Suite, I'm wondering, how well does Premiere Pro accommodate the HVX200's formats? Is the camera supported?

Thanks

Vince Curtis · August 30th, 2006, 11:04 PM

You have to use Raylight or Cineform to convert the files. . .

this shows how to work with Premiere for Raylight. . .

http://dvfilm.com/raylight/raylightTutorial4.htm

http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight/

and here is another post re: Premiere + HVX200

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=68377

or just use the SEARCH for premiere and hvx200 on this forum or that OTHER one. . ...

Robert Perez · August 31st, 2006, 01:44 AM

Thanks for those links. I couldn't actually read the last one, it keeps taking me to a server not found page, but the first 2 links worked fine.

Dan Eschenfelder · October 19th, 2006, 02:04 PM

Anything new on Adobe Premiere Pro supporting P2?

I don't want to spend alot of extra money on CineForm Hardware just to convert the files.

Anyone know if they will be coming out with a newer version with support for P2 anytime soon?

I'm a PC guy and an Adobe Software user for years... I'd like to stay with it.

I'm getting ready to purchase Adobe Production Studio Premium, but I'm sceptical to buy the current version, if the next version will support it. I am purchasing the "Student" version, so NO UPGRADES or PLUG-INS.

Thanks,
Dan

Barry Green · October 19th, 2006, 02:45 PM

You don't need any hardware, and CineForm doesn't include hardware anyway.

Your Premiere Pro options are:
1) Matrox Axio, which is a hardware board set
2) RayLight, a $195 program that converts the HVX files to .AVI
3) Serious Magic DVCPRO-HD Decoder, a program that works similarily to RayLight
4) CineForm, a $500 program that works similarly but converts the files into CineForm HD codec and offers more features

Premiere Pro doesn't have native support by itself. If you want to use an HVX, and you want to use Premiere Pro, then you've GOT to get something else in-between or the two won't work together.

Dan Eschenfelder · October 20th, 2006, 11:54 AM

Sorry, I meant SOFTWARE. I didn't want to have to purchase a different card, or any other software just to convert the files. Their's no reason why Premiere Pro shouldn't support the P2 camera Natively. (IMO) I was worried that I was going to have to shell out another $500 bucks for CineForm.

Anyway... I'm glad you told me about Serious Magic!!!

I googled Serious Magic and Adobe Premiere Pro and got a news release issued in September.

http://www.seriousmagic.com/news/DVCProHDDecoder.cfm

You may notice as well at the top left it says: "An Adobe Company"

I love it!!! It says in the presser that it is available for download for $195 bucks. I wonder if that excludes "Student Verisons" of Premiere?

Also, since they are now supported/owned by Adobe... does that answer my earlier question... "Anyone know if they will be coming out with a newer version with support for P2 anytime soon?" Will they release a new version with Serious Magic already installed?

Thanks for you help Barry. Lots of help.

Regards,
Dan

Gene Crucean · October 20th, 2006, 01:06 PM

I'm sure the next version of PP that they release will have full support. Just sit tight for now. It's either that or spend a little cash.

Barry Green · October 20th, 2006, 01:25 PM

Yeah, what will happen is anybody's guess. They did say that some serious magic technologies would be incorporated in future adobe products. Does that mean they'll bundle the DVCPRO-HD Decoder in Premiere Pro? Maybe, who knows?

The thing is: if you want to work with Premiere Pro TODAY, you've got to spend some cash to get one of the appropriate tools, because Premiere Pro (for whatever reason) doesn't support it right now, as-is, in its stock configuration.

You might write to Serious Magic and ask them what their policy would be for Premiere Pro users who want to buy the DVCPRO-HD decoder; they might have some suggestions already?

Steve Collins · December 5th, 2006, 11:43 PM

Anyone try this yet?

http://www.mainconcept.com/site/index.php?id=18023

David Saraceno · January 4th, 2007, 11:20 AM

Adobe just announced this, and the bundle only pertains to Intel Macs.

Wondering if this means that it will support DVCProHD and/or MXF out of the box or it needs the codec installed by FCP.

Interesting stuff.

May 27th, 2006, 07:07 PM	#65
Tom Lowe New Boot Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 13	I just ordered HVX + FS-100 + Premiere Pro + Aspect HD... will it work? First question: Will this combination work? Cineform says its Aspect HD software will allow Premiere Pro 2.0 to work with the HVX's MXF files. But there is no specific mention of the FS-100 hard-drive. Can Premiere Pro 2.0 + Aspect HD import MXF files from an FS-100 drive onto a PC for editing? Also, I placed this order on Friday, but I have since been reading some horror stories about the FS-100 Firestore device dropping out, not being recognized via firewire, and even catching on fire! I was planning to use the firestore as my primary/only p2 storage device on a 25-day feature shoot, but now I'm worried. If that firestore drive breaks down, my whole feature will come to a grinding halt. Then again the P2 cards are very, very expensive, and not as ideal for a movie shoot as a 100-gig drive like the Firestore. Also, what about variable frame-rates on the FS-100? Can I shoot ten minutes of 24p, then switch to 60p? It seems like the FS-100 has frame-rate limitations that P2 cards do not? Is that correct? Thanks if anyone can offer advice. Edit: I guess I could buy two FS-100s? Or maybe get the FS-100 and one p2 card to shoot variable framerate stuff? Has anyone heard of the CitiDisk HD storage device? http://www.shining.com/products/tota...on/citidisk_hd It appears to store 120 gigs, is small, and only costs $1,100. I could buy two of those. Last edited by Tom Lowe; May 27th, 2006 at 10:51 PM.

August 30th, 2006, 08:44 PM	#66
Robert Perez New Boot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington USA Posts: 6	Newbie question re: HVX200 and Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0 This is probably real noob question, but I've read such great things about this camera, and I've got such significant investment already into the Adobe Production Suite, I'm wondering, how well does Premiere Pro accommodate the HVX200's formats? Is the camera supported? Thanks

August 30th, 2006, 11:04 PM	#67
Vince Curtis Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 69	You have to use Raylight or Cineform to convert the files. . . this shows how to work with Premiere for Raylight. . . http://dvfilm.com/raylight/raylightTutorial4.htm http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight/ and here is another post re: Premiere + HVX200 http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=68377 or just use the SEARCH for premiere and hvx200 on this forum or that OTHER one. . ... Last edited by Vince Curtis; August 31st, 2006 at 09:38 AM.

October 19th, 2006, 02:04 PM	#69
Dan Eschenfelder New Boot Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 20	Adobe Premiere Pro Editing Anything new on Adobe Premiere Pro supporting P2? I don't want to spend alot of extra money on CineForm Hardware just to convert the files. Anyone know if they will be coming out with a newer version with support for P2 anytime soon? I'm a PC guy and an Adobe Software user for years... I'd like to stay with it. I'm getting ready to purchase Adobe Production Studio Premium, but I'm sceptical to buy the current version, if the next version will support it. I am purchasing the "Student" version, so NO UPGRADES or PLUG-INS. Thanks, Dan

December 5th, 2006, 11:43 PM	#74
Steve Collins New Boot Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 18	Native MXF Editing in Premiere Anyone try this yet? http://www.mainconcept.com/site/index.php?id=18023

May 11th, 2006, 10:01 PM	#61
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	We (CineForm) have an almost-public beta just posted for the next release of Aspect HD that supports the HVX200. "Almost public" means that if you email David Newman you'll get the link - it's not yet on our public site, and won't be for a few days. See the thread in the CineForm forum: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=67198 for details. David.

May 11th, 2006, 11:54 PM	#62
Vince Curtis Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 69	David - Is there any advantage of Aspect over Raylight ? Especially since Aspect is $300 more than Raylight ? I have Raylight now. I use PP2.0 and Vegas on a PC platform. . . .Thanks

May 12th, 2006, 01:03 AM	#63
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	Vince, first of all, sorry about the "missive", but I'll mention a few things: 1) Aspect HD is a real-time editing engine that displaces the native editing engine in Premiere. As part of the engine, Aspect HD has its own RT effects, transitions, motion engine, etc. When the Aspect HD engine is in operation, the Premiere interface issues "commands" to the CineForm engine. It is how we achieve performance that is about 4X faster than native Premiere performance. 2) Underneath our RT engine is our CineForm Intermediate codec which is designed for a multi-generation post workflow. Its quality is superb, and it has been used in numerous feature films. Following is a link to a quality analysis we performed a while ago comparing to a native DVCPRO HD post workflow: http://www.cineform.com/technology/H...lysis10bit.htm. That analysis was done with our 10-bit Prospect HD codec, but you definitely get the idea. For support of the HVX200 we convert the P2 files to CineForm Intermediate for higher visual fidelity through post and improved editing performance. 3) The conversion utility in Aspect HD offers numerous options for DVCPRO HD source files, including 1280 x 720 for native 960 x 720 P2 source files, and 1440 x 1080 for native P2 1280 x 1080 source files. It is then trivial to include files from multiple sources (HDV, HVX, etc) on the same editing timeline. There are many other user options available. In this link we give you a flavor of that: http://www.cineform.com/products/hvx...ort/hvx200.htm. In comparison, Raylight is a DVCPRO HD codec with an AVI wrapper for use in PC applications. It replaces the P2 MXF wrapper with an AVI wrapper for broad PC compatibility. This technique is completely valid, and if the result meets your performance, visual quality, and feature requirements then it'll be a good solution for you. But I think you'll find that for multi-generation post-production the visual fidelity result of CineForm Intermediate is superior to any DVCPRO HD codec because CI was designed for post, not for tape acquisition. And the performance of our RT engine can't be equalled with any other solution, including hardware based solutions. You can try Aspect HD on a 15-day trial with full functionality to better judge for yourself. For the next few days you'll need to request the Beta release directly from David Newman as I mentioned in a post above. By sometime next week we'll have a general release that you can navigate to directly from our website. By the way, our Connect HD is $199, and will include DVCPRO HD support in the next week or so. Connect HD has the same CineForm Intermeditate codec and conversion utility, but without the RT engine included in Aspect HD. It is targeted for all PC apps outside Premiere Pro.

May 12th, 2006, 09:56 AM	#64
Vince Curtis Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 69	Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate the HVX200 support for this product and future products. I and others I know have purchased the HVX200 for possible film out and film festivals, and your 10-bit products and HDLink Integration is great. As I do most of my editing on Vegas, Ill look forward to your continued support with Sony also. . ..

August 31st, 2006, 01:44 AM	#68
Robert Perez New Boot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington USA Posts: 6	Thanks for those links. I couldn't actually read the last one, it keeps taking me to a server not found page, but the first 2 links worked fine.

October 19th, 2006, 02:45 PM	#70
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	You don't need any hardware, and CineForm doesn't include hardware anyway. Your Premiere Pro options are: 1) Matrox Axio, which is a hardware board set 2) RayLight, a $195 program that converts the HVX files to .AVI 3) Serious Magic DVCPRO-HD Decoder, a program that works similarily to RayLight 4) CineForm, a $500 program that works similarly but converts the files into CineForm HD codec and offers more features Premiere Pro doesn't have native support by itself. If you want to use an HVX, and you want to use Premiere Pro, then you've GOT to get something else in-between or the two won't work together.

October 20th, 2006, 11:54 AM	#71
Dan Eschenfelder New Boot Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 20	Sorry, I meant SOFTWARE. I didn't want to have to purchase a different card, or any other software just to convert the files. Their's no reason why Premiere Pro shouldn't support the P2 camera Natively. (IMO) I was worried that I was going to have to shell out another $500 bucks for CineForm. Anyway... I'm glad you told me about Serious Magic!!! I googled Serious Magic and Adobe Premiere Pro and got a news release issued in September. http://www.seriousmagic.com/news/DVCProHDDecoder.cfm You may notice as well at the top left it says: "An Adobe Company" I love it!!! It says in the presser that it is available for download for $195 bucks. I wonder if that excludes "Student Verisons" of Premiere? Also, since they are now supported/owned by Adobe... does that answer my earlier question... "Anyone know if they will be coming out with a newer version with support for P2 anytime soon?" Will they release a new version with Serious Magic already installed? Thanks for you help Barry. Lots of help. Regards, Dan

October 20th, 2006, 01:06 PM	#72
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	I'm sure the next version of PP that they release will have full support. Just sit tight for now. It's either that or spend a little cash.

October 20th, 2006, 01:25 PM	#73
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Yeah, what will happen is anybody's guess. They did say that some serious magic technologies would be incorporated in future adobe products. Does that mean they'll bundle the DVCPRO-HD Decoder in Premiere Pro? Maybe, who knows? The thing is: if you want to work with Premiere Pro TODAY, you've got to spend some cash to get one of the appropriate tools, because Premiere Pro (for whatever reason) doesn't support it right now, as-is, in its stock configuration. You might write to Serious Magic and ask them what their policy would be for Premiere Pro users who want to buy the DVCPRO-HD decoder; they might have some suggestions already?

January 4th, 2007, 11:20 AM	#75
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	Premiere Encore & Soundbooth Coming to the Mac Adobe just announced this, and the bundle only pertains to Intel Macs. Wondering if this means that it will support DVCProHD and/or MXF out of the box or it needs the codec installed by FCP. Interesting stuff.