Render freeze at DVinfo.net

Clint Comer · January 2nd, 2006, 10:56 AM

I started rendering out this beast as an mpeg-2(23.976fps, 3:2 pulldown) with Magic Bullet on it. Using Premiere Pro 1.5, i've updates the media encoder witht the patch from main concept, and I have rendered out other stuff from the same timeline already so I know it works.

Ok, it says 42 hours remaining which then you times two because its a two pass render. After about 100,000 frames, about 36% done, it stops rendering frames. The timer is still going, the computer is still responsive, premiere minimizes and shows running in the task manager. But I am looking at the frames rendered and after 10 mins it doesn't move, nor does the %. I check the performance of the cpu and it is idle. So clearly it isn't doing anything. I have never seen this before. Any thoughts on to what caused this and what I can do to make sure it doesn't happen again? I like I said, its going to take 4 days to render so I need to make sure I get it right. I will post this same thing on the adobe forums as well but I need to start the render again here no later than wednesday in order to meet my deadline. If you have any ideas please post them. thank you.

Joshua Provost · January 3rd, 2006, 11:34 AM

Clint,

How long is this project?

The long time involved is no doubt due to Magic Bullet. 42 hours does not sound out of line depending on the length of the project.

As for the hanging, perhaps a two-stage process is in order? Do an Export->Movie to DV-AVI or uncompressed AVI, then encode that separately? At least you'll know where the problem lies, in the MB effects rendering, or in the MPEG-2 encoding.

Josh

Roger Averdahl · January 3rd, 2006, 11:59 AM

Hi Clint!

To start with, avoid Adobe Media Encoder in Premiere Pro if you want to save time. You will save time if you render out your movie to a DV AVI and encode it in Encore or in MainConcept MPEG Encoder or any other encoder. One hour native DV takes approx one hour to encode in Encore and more than one and a half hour to encode using Premiere Pro. (Premiere Pro, Encore and MainConcept MPEG Encoder uses the same codec, so there is no quality loss if you use Encore or MainConcept MPEG Encoder.)

I have had the same problem with Magic Bullet and i rendered out 20 minutes at a time using the Work Area Bar in Premiere Pro. After exporting the whole movie i imported all the .avi's and placed them on the Timeline and exported it as one .avi without any problem. And as Joshua says, export uncompressed .avi's.

And yes, Magic Bullet takes long time to render...

MainConcept MPEG Encoder

/Roger

Clint Comer · January 4th, 2006, 01:16 PM

Thanks a lot guys I will look into the main concept encoder for sure. For now, I did render out a dv avi which took 50 hours. I then imported it into encore and let it trancode using the auto settings. Turned out pretty good. I am going to try and render the mpeg again in premiere since I now have a copy to take to LA with me. We'll see if it hangs up again and if its in the same place, I wrote down the frams that it stopped on.

Question for Roger, you state in your first like to render out DV avi's yet in your last line oyu say uncompressed. Which should I do if I plan on using the main concept encoder or perhaps even Conopus Procoder?

Josh, the movie is 78 mins long. It took 50 hours for an avi and was going to take 88 hours for the mpeg. Sounds right for MB for sure.

Thanks again guys. I'll let you know how this mpeg turns out.

Joshua Provost · January 4th, 2006, 02:12 PM

Clint,

What format have you used thus far for editing, color correction, effects, titles, etc.? If you are using DV-AVI the whole way, you are already losing out on quality. The best you can do at this point is to render out from Premiere as uncompressed AVI, and use that to encode your MPEG-2. If you output DV-AVI, then you are recompressing and potentially losing a lot of quality especially if you have pushed the look and colors significantly.

Look out, uncompressed AVI is huge, like 5 GB for 3 minutes.

Josh

Roger Averdahl · January 4th, 2006, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clint Comer

Question for Roger, you state in your first like to render out DV avi's yet in your last line oyu say uncompressed. Which should I do if I plan on using the main concept encoder or perhaps even Conopus Procoder?

I do always render out uncompressed .avi's from Premiere Pro. (hum, i dont know if they actually are uncompressed, i unchek the Recompress option in the Export Movie Settings dialog.)

So, to use any stand alone encoder, such as MainConcept MPEG Encoder, uncheck Recompress in the Export Movie Settings dialog. :)

/Roger

Joshua Provost · January 4th, 2006, 02:23 PM

Roger,

That's not the only thing. Unchecking the Recompress box only ensures that your DV-AVI does not get recompressed unnecessarily. However, any frames that have been color corrected, effected, titled, transitioned, etc. must be recompressed to go back to DV-AVI.

Real uncompressed AVI (8-bit 4:4:4) has a file type of Microsoft AVI (not DV-AVI) and a Compressor of None.

So, if you have the space for it, and you use an external compressor, and you are doing any of those things that will trigger recompression, you have something gain by outputting true uncompressed AVI, and using that to feed your encoder.

Myself, I am using MB Deartifact to reconstruct my 4:1:1 DV-AVI files back to 4:4:4, converting to 24p, color correcting, and all that other stuff, so I am using uncompressed AVI throughout most of my workflow. Works good for smaller length projects (longest has been 7 minutes thusfar), but uses a lot of disk for longer projects.

Josh

Roger Averdahl · January 4th, 2006, 03:01 PM

Hi Joshua!

Thanks for the information Joshua! I have learned something new today! *thumbs up!*

/Roger :)

Clint Comer · January 5th, 2006, 12:21 PM

I have done everything inside Premiere, and was trying to render out to mpeg-2 right from there. But now for the second time, the mpeg has stopped rendering at the same frame. The computer isn't frozen, premiere can still be minimized, and the clock is still running. But it won't render anymore frames past that one. The DV avi out to encore looked good and worked out fine, still bums me out that I have to do it that way instead of the mpeg.

On another note, can anyone tell me if there is a difference between a mpeg at 23.976 fps using the 3:2 pull down vs a dv avi at 29.97 fps deinterlaced? The output looks the same on dvd. At the end is it all the same? This is why I was stressing on the mpeg, I thought that it was the final outcome that I wanted. Any insight on that?

Clint Comer · January 5th, 2006, 01:19 PM

Well I rendered out the section that it was stopping on and it came out just fine. I didn't change anything but the section that it rendered out. Does it have a limit on how many frames it can render? it stopped at 40110 frames.

Joshua Provost · January 5th, 2006, 02:08 PM

Clint,

If you are doing everything in Premiere, then you will get a tad more quality in going through uncompressed AVI instead of DV-AVI. You've got a long project, so the time and space it requires may mean the small increase in quality makes it not worth it to you. Maybe?

Speaking of which, there are better quality MPEG-2 encoders out there, as well, such as TMPGenc. If I were you, I would go out to uncompressed AVI, and encode with TMPGenc, and then bring the MPEG-2 file back into Encore for DVD authoring and burning. For best overall quality.

Also, there is a difference between 23.976p with 3:2 pulldown and 29.97 deinterlaced. But I'm not sure what your reference is? Whhich mode did you originally shoot the film in, and what look are you going for? I see from your web site pictures of an XL2. So, hopefully you shot the film in 16:9 anamorphic 24p Advanced pulldown. However, if you shot it in some other mode and are looking to convert it to 24p, then simply choosing a 24p mode in Encore is the wrong way to go about it. Can you fill me in on your workflow, all the way from camera to DVD?

Hey, we should work together sometime when I get back to Phoenix. We've had films all over the local Screen Wars TV show, and other local competitions. We're in a 48 hour competition in February you should check out (we're the Matter of Chance team).

Josh

Clint Comer · January 5th, 2006, 03:28 PM

I shoot in 24p (regular) 16x9. I capture in premiere pro 1.5. I edit it all there and up to now have done all effects in premiere. I add a magic bullet color filter to my final timeline. Now I am ready to render. I ran multiple tests (10) all with different settings. I found that a mpeg-2 at 23.976fps 3:2 pulldown was the best. Not only did it look great but I didn't have to transcode in encore when I went to burn the dvd. As for the avi tests, the 29.97fps deinterlcaed avi was the best. It didn't have a the interlaced lines when high movement was screen. No since the mpeg didn't work for me when I tried to to the complete movie and even if it did there would be no transcoding involved I'll go the avi. I import the dv avi into encore and set everything up there. Once It's ready I hit build dvd. It automaticlly transcoded and makes the disc. Now I have questioned the pre-sets but figured the auto would be good enough. Thats start to finish.

Now another question for you about uncompressed out and then encoding with a seperate encoder. What setting should I be using on the avi? 23.976fps? progressive or lower fields first? deinterlace the footage? what about the optimize stills thing, does do any good or bad?

Thanks again for you help man.

Joshua Provost · January 5th, 2006, 04:16 PM

Clint,

MPEG-2 23.976p with 2:3 pulldown direct out obviously should work. In this mode, the pulldown is thrown out, video is encoded, and pulldown is added on the fly by the DVD player on playback. That's what you want. If you can't get there directly, you can get there indirectly.

If you output DV-AVI 23.976p with either 2:3 or 2:3:3:2, you should be fine. Either way you are incurring a recompression cycle. 2:3:3:2 is always preferred. You can still do the 2:3:3:2 when exporting the movie, for trasnport, even though you recorded the video originally as regular 2:3. Field order should be Lower Field First.

The best would be to go uncompressed AVI. Set the File Type to Microsoft AVI. Compressor to None. Frame Rate to 23.976. Field Order to Progressive or No Fields. This will actually output just the real frames, no pulldown. You can bring that in to Encore or any other encoder. The default settings almost always require some tweaking for best quality output.

Under no circumstances would you want to output 29.97, and especially not with any deinterlacing.

Hey, if you're still working this out by Sunday, I can help you out. I'm back in town Saturday night. I'm real impressed by the trailer, and in general the ability to pull together a narrative feature film. So far we've done about fifteen short films, but nothing longer than 7 minutes. Shot a feature a year ago, but haven't had the time or will to get started editing.

Josh

Clint Comer · January 5th, 2006, 05:04 PM

well I rendered out an uncompressed avi at those settings and brought it into procoder. But as before I can't encode a mpeg-2 at 23.976. the program errors out and shuts down. I can render it out at 29.97 no problem. But if I can take the uncompressed right into encore than I might try that next. I wish stuff would work the way its suppose to.

Edit: When I import the uncompressed avi into borh Procoder and Encore they both say the footage is at 29.97 even though I rendered it out at 23.976. Is this right?

I will be heading to LA on Sunday and will be there for 3-4 days. But maybe when I get back you could come by and check it out that would be great.

Aaron Jones Sr. · September 18th, 2014, 02:27 AM

This is a great threat. I needed this information. I use a lot magic bullet in my projects as well along with lots of transitions. When I watch my task manager as premiere pro render the file I can see how it peaks at 100% for length of time and most likely it is my transitions. Also even when I'm in just play back in the sequence I get a freeze frame in my composite monitor and the only way I can recover is to shut Premiere Pro down and restart it again.

January 2nd, 2006, 10:56 AM	#1
Clint Comer Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 144	Render freeze I started rendering out this beast as an mpeg-2(23.976fps, 3:2 pulldown) with Magic Bullet on it. Using Premiere Pro 1.5, i've updates the media encoder witht the patch from main concept, and I have rendered out other stuff from the same timeline already so I know it works. Ok, it says 42 hours remaining which then you times two because its a two pass render. After about 100,000 frames, about 36% done, it stops rendering frames. The timer is still going, the computer is still responsive, premiere minimizes and shows running in the task manager. But I am looking at the frames rendered and after 10 mins it doesn't move, nor does the %. I check the performance of the cpu and it is idle. So clearly it isn't doing anything. I have never seen this before. Any thoughts on to what caused this and what I can do to make sure it doesn't happen again? I like I said, its going to take 4 days to render so I need to make sure I get it right. I will post this same thing on the adobe forums as well but I need to start the render again here no later than wednesday in order to meet my deadline. If you have any ideas please post them. thank you. __________________ Vlog On! http://youtube.com/clintus

January 3rd, 2006, 11:34 AM	#2
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Clint, How long is this project? The long time involved is no doubt due to Magic Bullet. 42 hours does not sound out of line depending on the length of the project. As for the hanging, perhaps a two-stage process is in order? Do an Export->Movie to DV-AVI or uncompressed AVI, then encode that separately? At least you'll know where the problem lies, in the MB effects rendering, or in the MPEG-2 encoding. Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

January 4th, 2006, 01:16 PM	#4
Clint Comer Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 144	Thanks a lot guys I will look into the main concept encoder for sure. For now, I did render out a dv avi which took 50 hours. I then imported it into encore and let it trancode using the auto settings. Turned out pretty good. I am going to try and render the mpeg again in premiere since I now have a copy to take to LA with me. We'll see if it hangs up again and if its in the same place, I wrote down the frams that it stopped on. Question for Roger, you state in your first like to render out DV avi's yet in your last line oyu say uncompressed. Which should I do if I plan on using the main concept encoder or perhaps even Conopus Procoder? Josh, the movie is 78 mins long. It took 50 hours for an avi and was going to take 88 hours for the mpeg. Sounds right for MB for sure. Thanks again guys. I'll let you know how this mpeg turns out. __________________ Vlog On! http://youtube.com/clintus

January 4th, 2006, 02:12 PM	#5
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Clint, What format have you used thus far for editing, color correction, effects, titles, etc.? If you are using DV-AVI the whole way, you are already losing out on quality. The best you can do at this point is to render out from Premiere as uncompressed AVI, and use that to encode your MPEG-2. If you output DV-AVI, then you are recompressing and potentially losing a lot of quality especially if you have pushed the look and colors significantly. Look out, uncompressed AVI is huge, like 5 GB for 3 minutes. Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

January 4th, 2006, 02:23 PM	#7
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Roger, That's not the only thing. Unchecking the Recompress box only ensures that your DV-AVI does not get recompressed unnecessarily. However, any frames that have been color corrected, effected, titled, transitioned, etc. must be recompressed to go back to DV-AVI. Real uncompressed AVI (8-bit 4:4:4) has a file type of Microsoft AVI (not DV-AVI) and a Compressor of None. So, if you have the space for it, and you use an external compressor, and you are doing any of those things that will trigger recompression, you have something gain by outputting true uncompressed AVI, and using that to feed your encoder. Myself, I am using MB Deartifact to reconstruct my 4:1:1 DV-AVI files back to 4:4:4, converting to 24p, color correcting, and all that other stuff, so I am using uncompressed AVI throughout most of my workflow. Works good for smaller length projects (longest has been 7 minutes thusfar), but uses a lot of disk for longer projects. Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

January 3rd, 2006, 11:59 AM	#3
Roger Averdahl Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm - Sweden Posts: 344	Hi Clint! To start with, avoid Adobe Media Encoder in Premiere Pro if you want to save time. You will save time if you render out your movie to a DV AVI and encode it in Encore or in MainConcept MPEG Encoder or any other encoder. One hour native DV takes approx one hour to encode in Encore and more than one and a half hour to encode using Premiere Pro. (Premiere Pro, Encore and MainConcept MPEG Encoder uses the same codec, so there is no quality loss if you use Encore or MainConcept MPEG Encoder.) I have had the same problem with Magic Bullet and i rendered out 20 minutes at a time using the Work Area Bar in Premiere Pro. After exporting the whole movie i imported all the .avi's and placed them on the Timeline and exported it as one .avi without any problem. And as Joshua says, export uncompressed .avi's. And yes, Magic Bullet takes long time to render... MainConcept MPEG Encoder /Roger

January 4th, 2006, 03:01 PM	#8
Roger Averdahl Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm - Sweden Posts: 344	Hi Joshua! Thanks for the information Joshua! I have learned something new today! thumbs up! /Roger :)

January 5th, 2006, 12:21 PM	#9
Clint Comer Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 144	I have done everything inside Premiere, and was trying to render out to mpeg-2 right from there. But now for the second time, the mpeg has stopped rendering at the same frame. The computer isn't frozen, premiere can still be minimized, and the clock is still running. But it won't render anymore frames past that one. The DV avi out to encore looked good and worked out fine, still bums me out that I have to do it that way instead of the mpeg. On another note, can anyone tell me if there is a difference between a mpeg at 23.976 fps using the 3:2 pull down vs a dv avi at 29.97 fps deinterlaced? The output looks the same on dvd. At the end is it all the same? This is why I was stressing on the mpeg, I thought that it was the final outcome that I wanted. Any insight on that? __________________ Vlog On! http://youtube.com/clintus Last edited by Clint Comer; January 5th, 2006 at 01:17 PM.

January 5th, 2006, 01:19 PM	#10
Clint Comer Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 144	Well I rendered out the section that it was stopping on and it came out just fine. I didn't change anything but the section that it rendered out. Does it have a limit on how many frames it can render? it stopped at 40110 frames. __________________ Vlog On! http://youtube.com/clintus

January 5th, 2006, 02:08 PM	#11
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Clint, If you are doing everything in Premiere, then you will get a tad more quality in going through uncompressed AVI instead of DV-AVI. You've got a long project, so the time and space it requires may mean the small increase in quality makes it not worth it to you. Maybe? Speaking of which, there are better quality MPEG-2 encoders out there, as well, such as TMPGenc. If I were you, I would go out to uncompressed AVI, and encode with TMPGenc, and then bring the MPEG-2 file back into Encore for DVD authoring and burning. For best overall quality. Also, there is a difference between 23.976p with 3:2 pulldown and 29.97 deinterlaced. But I'm not sure what your reference is? Whhich mode did you originally shoot the film in, and what look are you going for? I see from your web site pictures of an XL2. So, hopefully you shot the film in 16:9 anamorphic 24p Advanced pulldown. However, if you shot it in some other mode and are looking to convert it to 24p, then simply choosing a 24p mode in Encore is the wrong way to go about it. Can you fill me in on your workflow, all the way from camera to DVD? Hey, we should work together sometime when I get back to Phoenix. We've had films all over the local Screen Wars TV show, and other local competitions. We're in a 48 hour competition in February you should check out (we're the Matter of Chance team). Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

January 5th, 2006, 03:28 PM	#12
Clint Comer Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 144	I shoot in 24p (regular) 16x9. I capture in premiere pro 1.5. I edit it all there and up to now have done all effects in premiere. I add a magic bullet color filter to my final timeline. Now I am ready to render. I ran multiple tests (10) all with different settings. I found that a mpeg-2 at 23.976fps 3:2 pulldown was the best. Not only did it look great but I didn't have to transcode in encore when I went to burn the dvd. As for the avi tests, the 29.97fps deinterlcaed avi was the best. It didn't have a the interlaced lines when high movement was screen. No since the mpeg didn't work for me when I tried to to the complete movie and even if it did there would be no transcoding involved I'll go the avi. I import the dv avi into encore and set everything up there. Once It's ready I hit build dvd. It automaticlly transcoded and makes the disc. Now I have questioned the pre-sets but figured the auto would be good enough. Thats start to finish. Now another question for you about uncompressed out and then encoding with a seperate encoder. What setting should I be using on the avi? 23.976fps? progressive or lower fields first? deinterlace the footage? what about the optimize stills thing, does do any good or bad? Thanks again for you help man. __________________ Vlog On! http://youtube.com/clintus

January 5th, 2006, 04:16 PM	#13
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Clint, MPEG-2 23.976p with 2:3 pulldown direct out obviously should work. In this mode, the pulldown is thrown out, video is encoded, and pulldown is added on the fly by the DVD player on playback. That's what you want. If you can't get there directly, you can get there indirectly. If you output DV-AVI 23.976p with either 2:3 or 2:3:3:2, you should be fine. Either way you are incurring a recompression cycle. 2:3:3:2 is always preferred. You can still do the 2:3:3:2 when exporting the movie, for trasnport, even though you recorded the video originally as regular 2:3. Field order should be Lower Field First. The best would be to go uncompressed AVI. Set the File Type to Microsoft AVI. Compressor to None. Frame Rate to 23.976. Field Order to Progressive or No Fields. This will actually output just the real frames, no pulldown. You can bring that in to Encore or any other encoder. The default settings almost always require some tweaking for best quality output. Under no circumstances would you want to output 29.97, and especially not with any deinterlacing. Hey, if you're still working this out by Sunday, I can help you out. I'm back in town Saturday night. I'm real impressed by the trailer, and in general the ability to pull together a narrative feature film. So far we've done about fifteen short films, but nothing longer than 7 minutes. Shot a feature a year ago, but haven't had the time or will to get started editing. Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

January 5th, 2006, 05:04 PM	#14
Clint Comer Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 144	well I rendered out an uncompressed avi at those settings and brought it into procoder. But as before I can't encode a mpeg-2 at 23.976. the program errors out and shuts down. I can render it out at 29.97 no problem. But if I can take the uncompressed right into encore than I might try that next. I wish stuff would work the way its suppose to. Edit: When I import the uncompressed avi into borh Procoder and Encore they both say the footage is at 29.97 even though I rendered it out at 23.976. Is this right? I will be heading to LA on Sunday and will be there for 3-4 days. But maybe when I get back you could come by and check it out that would be great. __________________ Vlog On! http://youtube.com/clintus

September 18th, 2014, 02:27 AM	#15
Aaron Jones Sr. Major Player Join Date: May 2013 Location: Flint, Michigan, USA Posts: 394	Re: Render freeze This is a great threat. I needed this information. I use a lot magic bullet in my projects as well along with lots of transitions. When I watch my task manager as premiere pro render the file I can see how it peaks at 100% for length of time and most likely it is my transitions. Also even when I'm in just play back in the sequence I get a freeze frame in my composite monitor and the only way I can recover is to shut Premiere Pro down and restart it again.