Editing 30p Video files into a 25p Sequence

[Matt Thomas]

Well, I'm currently looking to purchase two new Cameras (both Card based) to replace my Z1, but the NTSC models are considerably cheaper then the PAL models but, the NTSC model doesn't shoot 25p (just 24, 30 and 60) and with me being based in the UK, whenever I burn DVDs off for clients it's in 25p.

So basically I'm asking if I shot in 30P and edited in a 25p Sequence/Project would there be any issues such sync issues etc (I also record sound separately sometimes with a Zoom H1 so would that have any audio sync issues).

Thanks for your help

[Ann Bens]

If you live in PAL land buy a PAL camera.

[Guy Caplin]

Filming at any other frame rate than 25 in PAL countries creates more problems than it is worth, specially since your final product will be PAL. On moving subjects you will create motion artifacts when you convert frame rates. The other problem is flicker from the 50 hertz lighting. Just keep it simple.

[Nigel Barker]

The problems of mixing frame rates & problems of flicker with lighting are grossly over rated when shooting HD. I think that most of the Old Wives Tales go back to Interlaced SD & problems with conversions between PAL & NTSC (or vice versa).

Both FCP & Premiere Pro easily handle different frame rates dropped onto the same timeline & I assume that any other decent NLE will do the same.

Any problem with flicker from lighting is because of shutter speed not frame rate so even to be on the safe side if you are shooting 30p use 1/50.

This highlights video was shot with a 5D3 at 25p, an Olympus OM-D E-M5 at 30p & a Panasonic G6 at 50p.

Danny and Nyssa - Handfasting Highlights Video @ Alice Barker ImagesAlice Barker Images

[Noa Put]

Nigel, what happens if you drop a 30p file with speeches onto a 25p timeline, how does it sound then when you export as a 50i or 25p file? Also, can I ask which camera was on the steadicam in the Danny and Nysa film?

[Donald McPherson]

OK I know I'm not up to most of you guys standards. Once I used my Samsung Galaxy 2 phone cam which shoots 30fps and my T2i 25fps together and I could not get the sound to sync. So I would say not a good idea.

[Noa Put]

I asked this question before in another thread to Nigel but he didn't answer, hopefully he will now as he has access to both 30 and 25p camera's, with Edius and most likely with may other semi-pro and pro nle you can mix different formats but I only wanted to know what the impact was on speech and especially if you wanted to sync the sound from a external recorder.

The reason why I asked what camera was on the steadicam in the video he referred to is that at 01:00 the panning motion is very jumpy on my screen, don't know if anyone else is seeing this? My first thought was that this would be the Olympus camera and the stuttering is because of the 30 to 25p conversion but I could be wrong or the player in my Google browser is not playing the file right.

[Noa Put]

Come on Nigel, help us demystify that Old Wives Tale about editing 30p in a 25p timeline! :)

[Nigel Barker]

The shots that look like Steadicam are indeed shot with the Olympus OM-D but just hand held. I don't see any stuttering on the panning shot at 01:00 perhaps it's a Vimeo or browser problem? There are plenty of other clips in that video that are from the OM-D (probably 50% or more)

The video was edited in Premiere Pro & dropping 30p video onto the 25p timeline the audio synchs with other tracks OK and there is no change in frequency either.

[Noa Put]

Thx for the info Nigel, I just saw on your website that I could download the file but also there and only at 01:00 during the panning motion when you follow the bride I see clear jumps when I look at her for as long as the panning motion lasts, as if frames are missing every second.
I might be able to test the sound thing as my wife has a small HD pocketcam that records at 30p, the sound and image is crap but I could try recording with my gh3 simultaneously with sound and see what happens in post when I try to match them up in Edius. I had been thinking about getting the Olympus because of it's image stabilization but many examples I see on the net show that the codec breaks easily on high detailed scenes so that's what kept me from getting it so far.

[Nigel Barker]

Noa, it doesn't look too bad to me but I think what you are probably seeing is problems when panning with the 5-way IBIS.

The Olympus 5-way IBIS excels at stabilising hand held footage so it looks like it's on a tripod or at least a shoulder rig. It's just amazing plus the size & weight allows you to do this one handed so you can even be holding a video light in the other hand.

However the IS is no real substitute for a Steadicam which gives a different sense of motion which is smoother & floatier. There can be an oddly rigid & robotic look to the footage shot with the OM-D when walking along.

Panning can also be problematical as you can get stuttering which is similar to & for the same reason that you switch off the IS on a lens when on a tripod. As you move the IS tries to keep the image stable but then reaches a point where it cannot move anymore so has to jump & then start the process all over again. There is actually a setting for the IS that just stabilises vertically for when you are panning but of course it's not realistic to be switching between different IS methods while shooting video. Most of the time the IS Auto function works fine but occasionally you end up with stuttering when panning.

Anticipation & gentle movements seem to be the secret (just like when using a Steadicam).

[Walter Brokx]

The money you'll save with buying a NTSC camera will be lost within 2 projects.
Without proper and time consuming rerendering interpolated frames, you will experiences either ghosting (frameblending results in 1 sharp frame vs. 4 blended ones) or 'irregular movements' (every 6th frame gets skipped) in your final videos.
Not always.
But just when things go fast or just when it matters, it will bite you in @$s.

Some people will never notice it, but I think you should make sure your workflow is in the right framerate from the start.