NTSC and PAL... at DVinfo.net

Rob Birks · March 16th, 2010, 07:39 AM

Despite a gazillion very clear warnings, one my pupils set his Adobe Premiere Pro project to NTSC having filmed all his footage in PAL.

He's been editing for a couple of weeks now, so lots of work has gone into it, but I only discovered the project settings were off yesterday. The project settings are greyed out, so can't be changed now. Any ideas what I should advise him to do? I'm a little surprised he's been able to play and edit all his footage with the wrong project settings (I didn't know you could) and feel a little out of my depth. This is completely new territory for me as I've never actually had a project for PAL footage set to NTSC before - it's just something you don't do!

I'm despairing at his inability to read or listen to advice, but then that's kids for you eh? :P

Alan Craven · March 16th, 2010, 09:25 AM

Have you tried importing the project into a new PAL project?

I have no personal experience of doing this, but that is where I would start.

Rob Birks · March 16th, 2010, 09:33 AM

Thanks Alan, I'll try that tomorrow and let you know :)

Harm Millaard · March 16th, 2010, 09:34 AM

Just tell him he flunked his class and should start again. That will teach him and that is what you are for, right?

Andrew Smith · March 16th, 2010, 10:25 AM

I've got a better idea. Get him to output a test tape / DVD and watch the colour drain from his face when it refuses to output / play.

Then tell him he has lost the client / won't get paid / flunked. :-)

Andrew

Peter Manojlovic · March 16th, 2010, 10:34 AM

The PAL footage can be slowed down to 23.98FPS on output to .m2v....
When you do your encode, simply add pulldown to the stream (or during authouring), and you'll get proper playback on TV..
Assuming of course, your delivery is for DVD....

Rob Birks · March 17th, 2010, 06:31 AM

oooh you guys are harsh tutors! :P

But you see, now I'm in two minds.. because Peter your idea is sheer genius! But that said, will the pupil learn from his mistake if I do a fix for him? Andrew and Harm, I may be with you on this. Because if he has to start again from scratch, that's a lesson he wont forget.

Thing is, it's difficult for some kids in their mid-teens, who have only ever used Windows Movie Maker, to suddenly jump to something like Adobe Premiere Pro where some suffer from having too much control.

I'm going to sit him down and have a chat. And maybe I'll be kind... ;)

Harm Millaard · March 17th, 2010, 07:14 AM

As they say:

Good judgment comes from experience; and experience, well, that comes from bad judgment.

Or:

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

Both apply, irrespective of age.

Ed Przyzycki · March 17th, 2010, 08:03 AM

As a teacher, remember that you'll have to take the course and assignment objectives/outcomes into account, as well as your grading criteria for the project. This criteria (similar to what's on a test) needs to be clear to the students prior to the start of the project.

For example, if the only criteria is "Produce and edit a 5 minute video and burn it to DVD" - then maybe he's accomplished that. (albeit in a format that can't be played in your region)

But, if you have very measurable objectives that comprise the project's outcome - it is more clear. (i.e. Shoot in 640x480 29.97 NTSC = 5pts, Configure Premiere settings = 5pts, Use 5 different transition effects = 5pts, etc)

A great teachable moment is providing him with the guidance on how he can find answers to his own problems and come up with solutions (i.e. online forums, books, peers, etc).

He may ultimately fail the part where "he didn't follow your clear warning".

But as a teacher though, you can either teach him to put his hands up and give up (fix this for me), or guide him through his mistake and give him the confidence and strength to resolve his own issues.

Andrew Smith · March 17th, 2010, 08:22 AM

Brings back memories for me.

Some ratbags in my class were playing up, so I gave them a detention. Given the bleeding-heart restrictions (that I think were) in place, I merely gave them a 5 minute detention as we aren't allowed to steal their lunch break from them.

All they had to do was to be completely quiet for 5 minutes. As a group.

Took until almost the end of the lunch hour to complete the detention, with the rest of the group of students ready to draw blood from the next one of their brood that dared to test the definition of "silence". They really hated hearing the words "Okay .. reset the detention. Let's start again."

Chances are it was the best lesson of their lives.

Andrew

PS. I'm not cruel. It was only a 5 minute detention. :-)

Rob Birks · March 17th, 2010, 09:06 AM

'Good judgment comes from experience; and experience, well, that comes from bad judgment'

Harm I love this! It's a great mantra for reminding us we're only human and that this isn't a bad thing :)

Andrew you are preaching to the choir! It probably was the most valuable lesson of their lives, though I bet some of them haven't realised it yet!

Though just to be clear, I'm actually only a part-time teacher (two days a week). I graduated from film school last summer, started a video production company with a fellow graduate but also do a bit of teaching to help pay the bills (and because I love it!) So I teach about 40 pupils how to use Adobe software and do my best to give them an insight into how to approach editing film. So I don't have to worry about grading and criteria for coursework, but I do want these pupils to come out of this experience as the best filmmakers they can be.

Bill Engeler · March 17th, 2010, 02:57 PM

All kidding aside, creating a new project with the correct dimensions and frame rate and dragging the existing project into it should solve the problem. I've done this before and it works. If you are using CS4, he should be able to do the same by dragging it into a new sequence with the appropriate settings. In the digital realm, PAL and NTSC are just different pixel formats and frame rates, easily interpreted.

I suspect he could even just export from the existing wrong project to a good export format without problems, but this is just a guess.

Rob Birks · March 17th, 2010, 03:05 PM

Cheers Bill, once I've had a chat to him about it I feel this would be the fairer course of action!

Peter Manojlovic · March 17th, 2010, 03:38 PM

Just for giggles....

Could you export an EDL (edit decision list), restart a fresh project in PAL, and reimport the EDL?

Mark Morreau · March 19th, 2010, 07:35 PM

Which version of Premiere Pro is your student using?

If it's CS4 this is simple: create a new sequence with the correct (PAL) settings, and just copy all the clips on the timeline of the wrong (NTSC) sequence and paste them into the PAL sequence... that should solve the problem.

March 16th, 2010, 07:39 AM	#1
Rob Birks Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reading (England) Posts: 43	NTSC and PAL... Despite a gazillion very clear warnings, one my pupils set his Adobe Premiere Pro project to NTSC having filmed all his footage in PAL. He's been editing for a couple of weeks now, so lots of work has gone into it, but I only discovered the project settings were off yesterday. The project settings are greyed out, so can't be changed now. Any ideas what I should advise him to do? I'm a little surprised he's been able to play and edit all his footage with the wrong project settings (I didn't know you could) and feel a little out of my depth. This is completely new territory for me as I've never actually had a project for PAL footage set to NTSC before - it's just something you don't do! I'm despairing at his inability to read or listen to advice, but then that's kids for you eh? :P __________________ Rob

March 16th, 2010, 09:33 AM	#3
Rob Birks Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reading (England) Posts: 43	Thanks Alan, I'll try that tomorrow and let you know :) __________________ Rob

March 16th, 2010, 10:34 AM	#6
Peter Manojlovic Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hamilton Ontario Posts: 769	Not all is lost.. The PAL footage can be slowed down to 23.98FPS on output to .m2v.... When you do your encode, simply add pulldown to the stream (or during authouring), and you'll get proper playback on TV.. Assuming of course, your delivery is for DVD....

March 17th, 2010, 06:31 AM	#7
Rob Birks Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reading (England) Posts: 43	oooh you guys are harsh tutors! :P But you see, now I'm in two minds.. because Peter your idea is sheer genius! But that said, will the pupil learn from his mistake if I do a fix for him? Andrew and Harm, I may be with you on this. Because if he has to start again from scratch, that's a lesson he wont forget. Thing is, it's difficult for some kids in their mid-teens, who have only ever used Windows Movie Maker, to suddenly jump to something like Adobe Premiere Pro where some suffer from having too much control. I'm going to sit him down and have a chat. And maybe I'll be kind... ;) __________________ Rob

March 17th, 2010, 09:06 AM	#11
Rob Birks Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reading (England) Posts: 43	'Good judgment comes from experience; and experience, well, that comes from bad judgment' Harm I love this! It's a great mantra for reminding us we're only human and that this isn't a bad thing :) Andrew you are preaching to the choir! It probably was the most valuable lesson of their lives, though I bet some of them haven't realised it yet! Though just to be clear, I'm actually only a part-time teacher (two days a week). I graduated from film school last summer, started a video production company with a fellow graduate but also do a bit of teaching to help pay the bills (and because I love it!) So I teach about 40 pupils how to use Adobe software and do my best to give them an insight into how to approach editing film. So I don't have to worry about grading and criteria for coursework, but I do want these pupils to come out of this experience as the best filmmakers they can be. __________________ Rob

March 16th, 2010, 09:25 AM	#2
Alan Craven Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: York, England Posts: 518	Have you tried importing the project into a new PAL project? I have no personal experience of doing this, but that is where I would start.

March 16th, 2010, 09:34 AM	#4
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	Just tell him he flunked his class and should start again. That will teach him and that is what you are for, right?

March 16th, 2010, 10:25 AM	#5
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,065	I've got a better idea. Get him to output a test tape / DVD and watch the colour drain from his face when it refuses to output / play. Then tell him he has lost the client / won't get paid / flunked. :-) Andrew

March 17th, 2010, 07:14 AM	#8
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	As they say: Good judgment comes from experience; and experience, well, that comes from bad judgment. Or: Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again. Both apply, irrespective of age.

March 17th, 2010, 08:03 AM	#9
Ed Przyzycki Regular Crew Join Date: May 2009 Location: SouthWest Suburbs of Chicago, IL Posts: 55	As a teacher, remember that you'll have to take the course and assignment objectives/outcomes into account, as well as your grading criteria for the project. This criteria (similar to what's on a test) needs to be clear to the students prior to the start of the project. For example, if the only criteria is "Produce and edit a 5 minute video and burn it to DVD" - then maybe he's accomplished that. (albeit in a format that can't be played in your region) But, if you have very measurable objectives that comprise the project's outcome - it is more clear. (i.e. Shoot in 640x480 29.97 NTSC = 5pts, Configure Premiere settings = 5pts, Use 5 different transition effects = 5pts, etc) A great teachable moment is providing him with the guidance on how he can find answers to his own problems and come up with solutions (i.e. online forums, books, peers, etc). He may ultimately fail the part where "he didn't follow your clear warning". But as a teacher though, you can either teach him to put his hands up and give up (fix this for me), or guide him through his mistake and give him the confidence and strength to resolve his own issues.

March 17th, 2010, 08:22 AM	#10
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,065	Brings back memories for me. Some ratbags in my class were playing up, so I gave them a detention. Given the bleeding-heart restrictions (that I think were) in place, I merely gave them a 5 minute detention as we aren't allowed to steal their lunch break from them. All they had to do was to be completely quiet for 5 minutes. As a group. Took until almost the end of the lunch hour to complete the detention, with the rest of the group of students ready to draw blood from the next one of their brood that dared to test the definition of "silence". They really hated hearing the words "Okay .. reset the detention. Let's start again." Chances are it was the best lesson of their lives. Andrew PS. I'm not cruel. It was only a 5 minute detention. :-)

March 17th, 2010, 02:57 PM	#12
Bill Engeler Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Brussels, Belgium Posts: 162	All kidding aside, creating a new project with the correct dimensions and frame rate and dragging the existing project into it should solve the problem. I've done this before and it works. If you are using CS4, he should be able to do the same by dragging it into a new sequence with the appropriate settings. In the digital realm, PAL and NTSC are just different pixel formats and frame rates, easily interpreted. I suspect he could even just export from the existing wrong project to a good export format without problems, but this is just a guess.

March 17th, 2010, 03:05 PM	#13
Rob Birks Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reading (England) Posts: 43	Cheers Bill, once I've had a chat to him about it I feel this would be the fairer course of action! __________________ Rob

March 17th, 2010, 03:38 PM	#14
Peter Manojlovic Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hamilton Ontario Posts: 769	EDL file Just for giggles.... Could you export an EDL (edit decision list), restart a fresh project in PAL, and reimport the EDL?

March 19th, 2010, 07:35 PM	#15
Mark Morreau Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Kentish Town, London, UK Posts: 157	Which version of Premiere Pro is your student using? If it's CS4 this is simple: create a new sequence with the correct (PAL) settings, and just copy all the clips on the timeline of the wrong (NTSC) sequence and paste them into the PAL sequence... that should solve the problem.