CS5 x64 and Mercury Playback Engine

Randy Johnson · March 28th, 2010, 07:11 PM

I have a question, Is CS5 using the nvida card for the all the processing? Or is it using the processor for video playback and the card for effects?

Mike Harvey · March 28th, 2010, 07:29 PM

Randy, here's everything known about the Mercury Playback Engine

The Genesis Project: Technology Sneek Peek: Adobe® Mercury Playback Engine

Randy Johnson · March 28th, 2010, 08:10 PM

o.k. ive seen all that. Personally I only do 2 layers of video 3 tops and I only do transistions with the occasional filter. I dont care about tons of layers and effects I care about smooth scrubbing and fast response.

Marty Baggen · March 28th, 2010, 10:37 PM

Randy.... my production demands sound similar to yours. You may want to check out Edius before you make any hardware purchases.

I'm toying with a combination of Cineform Prospect HD which provides a pathway to their amazing First Light metadata adjustment tool, and Edius 5.

The playback of HDV and Cineform encoded clips is smooth as can be. I get my EX1 tomorrow, so the final test will be with MXF material. I'm running Win7 64-bit on a modestly powered workstation with an ATI display card (I can't even remember which one) and only 4gb of RAM.

Edius is a 32-bit software however.

Edius 5 is available as a 30 day trial from Grass Valley. I'm really liking what I see.

Randy Johnson · March 28th, 2010, 10:44 PM

Actually I use Edius now I also own CS4 I like to keep my options open. Everytime a new CS comes out I try to change but up till Edius is too smooth. The thing that kills me with Edius is its lack of a decent DVD authoring app. or at least the ability to make a authoring app friendly file. I can only use mpeg-2 files from Edius with Encore not h.264. I really hope CS comes though this time I really like the whole Adobe package. I have a Black Magic card intensity pro the one thing I learned is Adobe doesnt play well with BM cards with Cineform the only way I could edit reliably with my BM card is natively which is why I really hope this Mercury engine pays off. I shoot in AVCHD.

Marty Baggen · March 28th, 2010, 10:52 PM

Hah... I've been singing to the choir.

I use TMPGenc for virtually all of my conversions, never using Adobe Media Encoder (I have CS4 as well) except to export to a Cineform master.

I mention TMPGenc because the makers of that software also have DVD authoring programs as well. If they are anything like the encoder, then they are probably solid and high quality.

I use Encore with MPEG2 files converted via TMPGenc from Cineform master files. I've had great luck with it, and the quality is outstanding.

If I go with Edius.... I will still use Cineform source clips for my edit project because of the First Light capabilities... but my output will probably be the lossless Canopus HD codec instead of Cineform..... unless of course Cineform manages to make an export plug-in for Edius 5.

So far as CS5.... to understand all the hype about the Mercury Playback Engine, all one has to do is fire up Edius 5. It may not do countless layers of video, but in my case.... and it sounds like yours as well.... who cares?

Tim Kolb · March 29th, 2010, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Baggen

I get my EX1 tomorrow, so the final test will be with MXF material. I'm running Win7 64-bit on a modestly powered workstation with an ATI display card...

Well, of course, the ATI card won't be compatible to augment the Mercury Playback Engine boost...so Edius may well retain a responsiveness edge on that system vs CS5 PPro.

And while XDcamHD on optical disc are wrapped as MXF...the EX cameras are MPEG4 wrapped (yes...it's MPEG2 video in an MPEG4 wrapper.

Marty Baggen · March 29th, 2010, 07:04 AM

Tim,

The question that caught my attention was essentially asking if GPU processing was really needed for smooth previewing of a couple of streams in CS5.

Randy's needs seemed very similar to mine, and it appears that I am achieving perfectly smooth performance with the Edius 5 demo on my garden variety setup.

I have been contemplating an extensive (read expensive) overhaul of hardware to accommodate whatever the CS5 specs are going to be.... and now I realize there may be alternatives to that route.

I was using the "MXF" term in a generic sense. I'm very excited about the addition of the EX1.

Randy Johnson · March 29th, 2010, 07:54 AM

I have Edius NEO 2 also and it is smooth and fast. But still no decent authoring app. I still must use Encore.

Tim Kolb · March 29th, 2010, 09:14 AM

Marty,

I have an EX1 (now replaced in the product line by the EX1r) and simply think it's the best camcorder value dollar-for-dollar that In know of currently. I use a fair variety of higher-end cameras when necessary including Motion RAW cameras, and while there are cameras with greater capability than the EX1(r), I think that the return on investment with this camera is really impressive.

So, I think you'll not regret your decision there...

On Edius:

Going back some years when I worked more closely with Canopus, my typical mantra was if you can do what you need to do in post production in Edius, I've seen nothing faster. I still stand by that statement. Edius is starting to get some traction in news, which is an area where I have to assume it just smokes everything in its path.

I'm an Adobe user, but that doesn't mean I don't see the strengths of other products...the media management in an Avid system, the ability to scale performance to be stable on a wide variety of systems ranging from underpowered to powerhouses that Vegas possesses, the flexibility offered by the inclusion of Color that gives FCP an edge in that area... There are strengths in every app out there. The strengths of Edius have always revolved around being absurdly responsive relative to the media and the hardware being used.

As you've noted, Edius just handles media beautifully and smoothly. It has from the beginning when I was operating an Edius kiosk at NAB when it was introduced, with something like 16 layers of DV (a big deal for that time) with effects...and it chewed right through it.

Adobe will always have more effects and more options than Edius as they really are targeting different users, but I still think that Edius is a great product.

on your question...the playback is improved on CS5 relative to CS4 even without a CUDA compatible display card as far as I know. Whether it would get to the level of Edius' responsiveness without the display card help...i could only speculate, but I'd be doubtful on a modestly configured system.

...but I always reserve the right to be proven wrong by actual testing.

Marty Baggen · March 29th, 2010, 09:39 AM

"...but I always reserve the right to be proven wrong by actual testing."

I work with a lot of engineering firms and I am going to steal your classic quote from above and claim it as my own.... I love it!

Having been so impressed with Edius 5 and a current owner of CS4, I'm thinking I may have a good formula. I have longed for a snappy, simple, responsive NLE. If I am going to do anything complex, I have After Effects. For Blu-Ray/DVD, there's Encore.... and for encoding, I have TMPGenc.

Already armed with Cineform's Prospect HD... I can do all my color correction on a metadata level and not affect preview performance.

All my sound work is done in Vegas and Sound Forge with the Waves mastering plug-in suite.

I've never had FCP or Avid experience, but they seem to have powerful assets as well.

CS5 could be a breakout product, but simple and lean workflow is my ultimate goal. The EX1 should contribute to that end as well.... and hearing your praises is further affirmation.

It's great to hear your perspective on things Tim... there is a lot of commonality in your experiences with where I am headed.

Tim Kolb · March 29th, 2010, 10:57 AM

The thing with Adobe's product...which I use as my principle tool BTW, is that it simply isn't as elegant in its resource utilization as some other NLEs (think Edius, Vegas).

Now...the upside is the effects and inter-application functionality that the Adobe suite provides is extensive...and I need those capabilities, so I have to get the hardware necessary to run the app effectively.

As I said, they each have their sweet spots...Adobe's is not lightweight resource utilization and Edius's isn't external effects or encode authoring extension...

I wouldn't buy a Corolla to start a freight business, nor a 24' box truck to commute back and forth to the office. You get what you need and life is good.

Martin Guitar · March 29th, 2010, 12:02 PM

I downloaded the trial for Edius 5 and when i import Cineform files, some work fine and some are totally black. (i can hear the audio though)

Any thoughts why it would do that?

Edius from what i saw is smooth and realtime. I just can't take it anymore with Vegas 9c, Core i7 920 , 6gb ram, velociraptor for OS and raid 0 (3 drives) for footage. Vegas can't keep a smooth preview.

I want CS5.

Roger Wilson · March 30th, 2010, 08:59 AM

This article from an Adobe blog proivdes some additional information about the MPE. There have been improvements to the base product and a supported GPU is not required, but if one is available, it will be used.

The Video Road: Debunking Mercury Myths

David Dwyer · April 11th, 2010, 04:22 AM

Adobe Premiere Pro Mercury Playback Engine is faster than CS4 across the board --- works great on your existing system. If you want even more speed, then you need to grab one of the NVIDIA CUDA cards that we've tuned for (GTX 285, Quadro 3800, 4800, 5800, CX .... optimized support for GTX 480 coming in Q3).
4 hours ago · Report

From their Facebook Page - No 3700 or GTX295?

March 29th, 2010, 09:14 AM	#70
Tim Kolb Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Neenah, WI Posts: 547	Marty, I have an EX1 (now replaced in the product line by the EX1r) and simply think it's the best camcorder value dollar-for-dollar that In know of currently. I use a fair variety of higher-end cameras when necessary including Motion RAW cameras, and while there are cameras with greater capability than the EX1(r), I think that the return on investment with this camera is really impressive. So, I think you'll not regret your decision there... On Edius: Going back some years when I worked more closely with Canopus, my typical mantra was if you can do what you need to do in post production in Edius, I've seen nothing faster. I still stand by that statement. Edius is starting to get some traction in news, which is an area where I have to assume it just smokes everything in its path. I'm an Adobe user, but that doesn't mean I don't see the strengths of other products...the media management in an Avid system, the ability to scale performance to be stable on a wide variety of systems ranging from underpowered to powerhouses that Vegas possesses, the flexibility offered by the inclusion of Color that gives FCP an edge in that area... There are strengths in every app out there. The strengths of Edius have always revolved around being absurdly responsive relative to the media and the hardware being used. As you've noted, Edius just handles media beautifully and smoothly. It has from the beginning when I was operating an Edius kiosk at NAB when it was introduced, with something like 16 layers of DV (a big deal for that time) with effects...and it chewed right through it. Adobe will always have more effects and more options than Edius as they really are targeting different users, but I still think that Edius is a great product. on your question...the playback is improved on CS5 relative to CS4 even without a CUDA compatible display card as far as I know. Whether it would get to the level of Edius' responsiveness without the display card help...i could only speculate, but I'd be doubtful on a modestly configured system. ...but I always reserve the right to be proven wrong by actual testing. __________________ TimK Kolb Productions

March 29th, 2010, 10:57 AM	#72
Tim Kolb Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Neenah, WI Posts: 547	The thing with Adobe's product...which I use as my principle tool BTW, is that it simply isn't as elegant in its resource utilization as some other NLEs (think Edius, Vegas). Now...the upside is the effects and inter-application functionality that the Adobe suite provides is extensive...and I need those capabilities, so I have to get the hardware necessary to run the app effectively. As I said, they each have their sweet spots...Adobe's is not lightweight resource utilization and Edius's isn't external effects or encode authoring extension... I wouldn't buy a Corolla to start a freight business, nor a 24' box truck to commute back and forth to the office. You get what you need and life is good. __________________ TimK Kolb Productions

March 28th, 2010, 07:11 PM	#61
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	I have a question, Is CS5 using the nvida card for the all the processing? Or is it using the processor for video playback and the card for effects?

March 28th, 2010, 07:29 PM	#62
Mike Harvey Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 43	Randy, here's everything known about the Mercury Playback Engine The Genesis Project: Technology Sneek Peek: Adobe® Mercury Playback Engine

March 28th, 2010, 08:10 PM	#63
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	o.k. ive seen all that. Personally I only do 2 layers of video 3 tops and I only do transistions with the occasional filter. I dont care about tons of layers and effects I care about smooth scrubbing and fast response.

March 28th, 2010, 10:37 PM	#64
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	Randy.... my production demands sound similar to yours. You may want to check out Edius before you make any hardware purchases. I'm toying with a combination of Cineform Prospect HD which provides a pathway to their amazing First Light metadata adjustment tool, and Edius 5. The playback of HDV and Cineform encoded clips is smooth as can be. I get my EX1 tomorrow, so the final test will be with MXF material. I'm running Win7 64-bit on a modestly powered workstation with an ATI display card (I can't even remember which one) and only 4gb of RAM. Edius is a 32-bit software however. Edius 5 is available as a 30 day trial from Grass Valley. I'm really liking what I see.

March 28th, 2010, 10:44 PM	#65
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	Actually I use Edius now I also own CS4 I like to keep my options open. Everytime a new CS comes out I try to change but up till Edius is too smooth. The thing that kills me with Edius is its lack of a decent DVD authoring app. or at least the ability to make a authoring app friendly file. I can only use mpeg-2 files from Edius with Encore not h.264. I really hope CS comes though this time I really like the whole Adobe package. I have a Black Magic card intensity pro the one thing I learned is Adobe doesnt play well with BM cards with Cineform the only way I could edit reliably with my BM card is natively which is why I really hope this Mercury engine pays off. I shoot in AVCHD.

March 28th, 2010, 10:52 PM	#66
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	Hah... I've been singing to the choir. I use TMPGenc for virtually all of my conversions, never using Adobe Media Encoder (I have CS4 as well) except to export to a Cineform master. I mention TMPGenc because the makers of that software also have DVD authoring programs as well. If they are anything like the encoder, then they are probably solid and high quality. I use Encore with MPEG2 files converted via TMPGenc from Cineform master files. I've had great luck with it, and the quality is outstanding. If I go with Edius.... I will still use Cineform source clips for my edit project because of the First Light capabilities... but my output will probably be the lossless Canopus HD codec instead of Cineform..... unless of course Cineform manages to make an export plug-in for Edius 5. So far as CS5.... to understand all the hype about the Mercury Playback Engine, all one has to do is fire up Edius 5. It may not do countless layers of video, but in my case.... and it sounds like yours as well.... who cares?

March 29th, 2010, 07:04 AM	#68
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	Tim, The question that caught my attention was essentially asking if GPU processing was really needed for smooth previewing of a couple of streams in CS5. Randy's needs seemed very similar to mine, and it appears that I am achieving perfectly smooth performance with the Edius 5 demo on my garden variety setup. I have been contemplating an extensive (read expensive) overhaul of hardware to accommodate whatever the CS5 specs are going to be.... and now I realize there may be alternatives to that route. I was using the "MXF" term in a generic sense. I'm very excited about the addition of the EX1.

March 29th, 2010, 07:54 AM	#69
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	I have Edius NEO 2 also and it is smooth and fast. But still no decent authoring app. I still must use Encore.

March 29th, 2010, 09:39 AM	#71
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	"...but I always reserve the right to be proven wrong by actual testing." I work with a lot of engineering firms and I am going to steal your classic quote from above and claim it as my own.... I love it! Having been so impressed with Edius 5 and a current owner of CS4, I'm thinking I may have a good formula. I have longed for a snappy, simple, responsive NLE. If I am going to do anything complex, I have After Effects. For Blu-Ray/DVD, there's Encore.... and for encoding, I have TMPGenc. Already armed with Cineform's Prospect HD... I can do all my color correction on a metadata level and not affect preview performance. All my sound work is done in Vegas and Sound Forge with the Waves mastering plug-in suite. I've never had FCP or Avid experience, but they seem to have powerful assets as well. CS5 could be a breakout product, but simple and lean workflow is my ultimate goal. The EX1 should contribute to that end as well.... and hearing your praises is further affirmation. It's great to hear your perspective on things Tim... there is a lot of commonality in your experiences with where I am headed.

March 29th, 2010, 12:02 PM	#73
Martin Guitar Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 115	I downloaded the trial for Edius 5 and when i import Cineform files, some work fine and some are totally black. (i can hear the audio though) Any thoughts why it would do that? Edius from what i saw is smooth and realtime. I just can't take it anymore with Vegas 9c, Core i7 920 , 6gb ram, velociraptor for OS and raid 0 (3 drives) for footage. Vegas can't keep a smooth preview. I want CS5.

March 30th, 2010, 08:59 AM	#74
Roger Wilson Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Denver, CO, USA Posts: 85	This article from an Adobe blog proivdes some additional information about the MPE. There have been improvements to the base product and a supported GPU is not required, but if one is available, it will be used. The Video Road: Debunking Mercury Myths

April 11th, 2010, 04:22 AM	#75
David Dwyer Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Chester, North West Posts: 565	Adobe Premiere Pro Mercury Playback Engine is faster than CS4 across the board --- works great on your existing system. If you want even more speed, then you need to grab one of the NVIDIA CUDA cards that we've tuned for (GTX 285, Quadro 3800, 4800, 5800, CX .... optimized support for GTX 480 coming in Q3). 4 hours ago · Report From their Facebook Page - No 3700 or GTX295?