To RAID or not to RAID, that is the question at DVinfo.net

Harm Millaard · November 16th, 2009, 02:41 PM

It may be of interest to some: Adobe Forums: To RAID or not to RAID, that is the...

Steve Kalle · November 16th, 2009, 04:36 PM

Hey, I don't appreciate being called a "paranoid in a hurry" :p

I have had two 150GB Raptors die within 2 weeks of each other, but because they were in Raid 10, I didn't lose any data. (However, WD was awesome as I got 2 Velociraptors in warranty return)

I can tell you focused on the Raid levels you prefer as pertinent information was left out of Raid 10. Raid 10 allows 2 disks to fail without losing data, and provides read speeds equal to Raid 0 using good Raid controllers. (ie Adaptec 5805 provides this while the Highpoint 2xxx series does not)

Harm. nice job. Although, I would have been a bit more pro-Raid. Such as when you said if someone only has a few drives, then they shouldn't use Raid. I would have said go buy some more drives so they can use Raid. I would also add that a UPS is more important than a BBU if someone must choose between the two. Losing power can destroy an entire Raid array whereas the BBU wouldn't do anything to prevent that from happening. I know as it happened to me about a week before I got APC's 1500va UPS plus second battery. The partition data was damaged but I was, luckily, able to save 95% of the data using a VM and Easus' recovery software. I was using a 3ware 9650SE-8MLPL.

Your ending statement in bold is PERFECT. That is what I tell non-believers all the time.

Harm Millaard · November 16th, 2009, 05:15 PM

Steve, thanks for the feedback and I incorporated your remarks. I hope you like them.

Steve Kalle · November 16th, 2009, 08:48 PM

"but what are the chances of that happening" ? When you consider that one drive dies and then you must order another and THEN rebuild the array, the chances are good enough for another drive to die. This is the whole reason large Raid 5 arrays are very risky (and a very bad idea) and why Raid 6 exists.

I hope you don't think I am trying to be overly critical (ie a jerk) but some of us like having that extra security. Heck, some people backup onto XDCAM optical discs in addition to hard drives when they can save a lot of money and use blu ray discs instead of XDCAM discs (I think its $50/20 for a dual layer XDCAM/Blu Ray disc).

Harm, I'm creating a thread about some problems I have been having so please take a look (it will be in the Premiere category).

Stephen Armour · November 18th, 2009, 11:06 PM

Harm, I posted a question to you on boot drive redundancy with your article on the Adobe forum on "TO RAID, or Not...

You might want to post your answer back here too, to help others that don't go there.

Thanks

Daniel Browning · November 18th, 2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

I have had two 150GB Raptors die within 2 weeks of each other, but because they were in Raid 10, I didn't lose any data. (However, WD was awesome as I got 2 Velociraptors in warranty return)

Cool. One of my 150GB raptors (RAID-1) just died. I wonder if I'll get a Velociraptor too...

Steve Kalle · November 19th, 2009, 01:01 AM

Daniel, how old is your dead Raptor? Both of mine were a little over 2 yrs old. Heck, the other 2 150GB Raptors are still chugging along without a problem. And I have 4 74GB Raptors still unplugged since I got my Intel X-25 SSD.

For your warranty return, you will be able to check online for the model # that they send you. I would bet that you get a V-Raptor as the Raptors have been out of production for a couple of years.

I don't know your setup and how you use your drives but I HIGHLY recommend looking into selling the V-Raptor when you get it and get an Intel X 25 SSD 80GB. I went from 4 74GB Raptors in Raid for the OS to an Intel SSD and its insane how much faster the SSD is. The ONLY downside to getting a SSD is having to use another computer without an SSD because it will make other computers feel like they are 10yrs old.

Harm Millaard · November 19th, 2009, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Armour

Harm, I posted a question to you on boot drive redundancy with your article on the Adobe forum on "TO RAID, or Not...

You might want to post your answer back here too, to help others that don't go there.

Thanks

Stephen,

Maybe not as explicit as you would have liked, but in the description of RAID1 it says:

The RAID level for the paranoid. It gives no performance gain whatsoever. It gives you redundancy, at the cost of a disk. If you are meticulous about backups and make them all the time, RAID1 may be a better solution, because you can never forget to make a backup, you can restore instantly. Remember backups require a disk as well. This RAID1 level can only be advised for the C drive IMO if you do not have any trust in the reliability of modern-day disks. It is of no use for video editing.

There are a number of people here who have had boot disk problems and I can very well imagine that RAID1 is the most elegant and secure protection against disk failure of boot diks. In practice however, many people do not have the space to add another disk internally or they have to forfeit a disk intended for their video work and for that reason those often use disk images on an external. It is strange how even the largest chassis tends to fill up quickly. Personally, I don't use RAID1, exactly because I do not have the space in my case to add another Velociraptor. I need a couple of different drive cages to create more space and bring my internals up to 20.

I hope this helps.

Stephen Armour · November 19th, 2009, 07:38 AM

Ok Harm, I confess I skipped over your RAID 1 part entirely...my bad. You got it covered for sure.

I guess after so many probs, I'm one who has lost all confidence in HDD's (even enterprise level), and RAID 1 for boot drives is not an option for us anymore. There is certainly no better solution I can see for boot/program drive protection.

With the size of program bloatware installations growing all the time, and with the rate program updates are released, it makes no sense whatsoever for us to not plan for mirroring our boot drives.

I can well understand the space prob though, as that's why I ended up zip-tying a drive into one server case! No time to make more elegant solutions.

Thanks again for your article, sorry for my skipover.

Daniel Browning · November 19th, 2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

Daniel, how old is your dead Raptor? Both of mine were a little over 2 yrs old.

April 2007, 2.5 years old. Perhaps from the same bad batch as yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

I don't know your setup and how you use your drives but I HIGHLY recommend looking into selling the V-Raptor when you get it and get an Intel X 25 SSD 80GB. I went from 4 74GB Raptors in Raid for the OS to an Intel SSD and its insane how much faster the SSD is. The ONLY downside to getting a SSD is having to use another computer without an SSD because it will make other computers feel like they are 10yrs old.

Thanks for the advice. I use some expensive copper hard drive enclosures to make the system silent, which wouldn't be necessary with SSD, so that's a double benefit.

Steve Kalle · November 19th, 2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harm Millaard

The RAID level for the paranoid. It gives no performance gain whatsoever. It gives you redundancy, at the cost of a disk.

Sorry Harm, but I need to correct this. Similar to Raid 10, Raid 1 (on good Raid controllers) is able to read from both drives at the same time thus increasing performance. I have even tested this on my business partner's pc where he has 2 7200rpm drives in Raid 1 and I reconfigured his pc since I sold him one of my V-Raptors. When booting up with one of the drives disconnected, it was at least 30-40% slower, if not more.

Steve Kalle · November 23rd, 2009, 07:15 PM

Harm, can you tell me if the drives connected to your Areca 1680ix constantly spin down and up and what about any drives attached to the ICH10R?

At the moment, I have this:

3ware 9650SE-8 with:
2 - 150GB Raptors in Raid 0
2 - 1TB Seagates 7200.12 in Raid 1

1680ix:
4 - 1TB 7200.12s in Raid 10 via external case

ICH10R:
1 - Intel SSD
3 - 500GB 7200.11s (2 in R1)
1 - 1TB 7200.12 via external eSata to Sata adapter
1 - 1TB 7200.12 via eSata

I never had a problem with drives spinning down all the time until the Areca. I got the Areca so I could remove the 3ware card as it is about 3yrs old and I don't trust computer hardware that old for important data.

One of the issues I experience is opening folders on a drive that hasn't been accessed in a while and emptying the Recycle Bin, which can have a several second delay. I can delete several files and right click on the recycle bin to empty which can take 5+ seconds to ask yes or cancel. This is odd as I was just accessing the drive with the deleted files. This sort of thing never occurred prior to the Areca. One of my theories is that Windows is having trouble keeping track of all these drives/partitions, which made me think of the screenshot of your drives.

Any thoughts?

Harm Millaard · November 24th, 2009, 04:07 AM

Steve,

I never have those problems, but then I have all power management settings disabled. Only at boot time do I have staggered spin-up on.

Steve Kalle · November 24th, 2009, 03:35 PM

I also have all the power mgmt settings disabled. Maybe the Areca and 3ware drivers don't interact well.

November 16th, 2009, 02:41 PM	#1
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	To RAID or not to RAID, that is the question It may be of interest to some: Adobe Forums: To RAID or not to RAID, that is the...

November 18th, 2009, 11:06 PM	#5
Stephen Armour Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Natal, RN, Brasil Posts: 900	Harm, I posted a question to you on boot drive redundancy with your article on the Adobe forum on "TO RAID, or Not... You might want to post your answer back here too, to help others that don't go there. Thanks __________________ http://lightinaction.org "All in the view of the LION"

November 19th, 2009, 07:38 AM	#9
Stephen Armour Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Natal, RN, Brasil Posts: 900	Ok Harm, I confess I skipped over your RAID 1 part entirely...my bad. You got it covered for sure. I guess after so many probs, I'm one who has lost all confidence in HDD's (even enterprise level), and RAID 1 for boot drives is not an option for us anymore. There is certainly no better solution I can see for boot/program drive protection. With the size of program bloatware installations growing all the time, and with the rate program updates are released, it makes no sense whatsoever for us to not plan for mirroring our boot drives. I can well understand the space prob though, as that's why I ended up zip-tying a drive into one server case! No time to make more elegant solutions. Thanks again for your article, sorry for my skipover. __________________ http://lightinaction.org "All in the view of the LION"

November 24th, 2009, 04:07 AM	#13
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	Steve, I never have those problems, but then I have all power management settings disabled. Only at boot time do I have staggered spin-up on. Attached Thumbnails

November 16th, 2009, 04:36 PM	#2
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	Hey, I don't appreciate being called a "paranoid in a hurry" :p I have had two 150GB Raptors die within 2 weeks of each other, but because they were in Raid 10, I didn't lose any data. (However, WD was awesome as I got 2 Velociraptors in warranty return) I can tell you focused on the Raid levels you prefer as pertinent information was left out of Raid 10. Raid 10 allows 2 disks to fail without losing data, and provides read speeds equal to Raid 0 using good Raid controllers. (ie Adaptec 5805 provides this while the Highpoint 2xxx series does not) Harm. nice job. Although, I would have been a bit more pro-Raid. Such as when you said if someone only has a few drives, then they shouldn't use Raid. I would have said go buy some more drives so they can use Raid. I would also add that a UPS is more important than a BBU if someone must choose between the two. Losing power can destroy an entire Raid array whereas the BBU wouldn't do anything to prevent that from happening. I know as it happened to me about a week before I got APC's 1500va UPS plus second battery. The partition data was damaged but I was, luckily, able to save 95% of the data using a VM and Easus' recovery software. I was using a 3ware 9650SE-8MLPL. Your ending statement in bold is PERFECT. That is what I tell non-believers all the time.

November 16th, 2009, 05:15 PM	#3
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	Steve, thanks for the feedback and I incorporated your remarks. I hope you like them.

November 16th, 2009, 08:48 PM	#4
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	"but what are the chances of that happening" ? When you consider that one drive dies and then you must order another and THEN rebuild the array, the chances are good enough for another drive to die. This is the whole reason large Raid 5 arrays are very risky (and a very bad idea) and why Raid 6 exists. I hope you don't think I am trying to be overly critical (ie a jerk) but some of us like having that extra security. Heck, some people backup onto XDCAM optical discs in addition to hard drives when they can save a lot of money and use blu ray discs instead of XDCAM discs (I think its $50/20 for a dual layer XDCAM/Blu Ray disc). Harm, I'm creating a thread about some problems I have been having so please take a look (it will be in the Premiere category).

November 19th, 2009, 01:01 AM	#7
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	Daniel, how old is your dead Raptor? Both of mine were a little over 2 yrs old. Heck, the other 2 150GB Raptors are still chugging along without a problem. And I have 4 74GB Raptors still unplugged since I got my Intel X-25 SSD. For your warranty return, you will be able to check online for the model # that they send you. I would bet that you get a V-Raptor as the Raptors have been out of production for a couple of years. I don't know your setup and how you use your drives but I HIGHLY recommend looking into selling the V-Raptor when you get it and get an Intel X 25 SSD 80GB. I went from 4 74GB Raptors in Raid for the OS to an Intel SSD and its insane how much faster the SSD is. The ONLY downside to getting a SSD is having to use another computer without an SSD because it will make other computers feel like they are 10yrs old.

November 23rd, 2009, 07:15 PM	#12
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	Harm, can you tell me if the drives connected to your Areca 1680ix constantly spin down and up and what about any drives attached to the ICH10R? At the moment, I have this: 3ware 9650SE-8 with: 2 - 150GB Raptors in Raid 0 2 - 1TB Seagates 7200.12 in Raid 1 1680ix: 4 - 1TB 7200.12s in Raid 10 via external case ICH10R: 1 - Intel SSD 3 - 500GB 7200.11s (2 in R1) 1 - 1TB 7200.12 via external eSata to Sata adapter 1 - 1TB 7200.12 via eSata I never had a problem with drives spinning down all the time until the Areca. I got the Areca so I could remove the 3ware card as it is about 3yrs old and I don't trust computer hardware that old for important data. One of the issues I experience is opening folders on a drive that hasn't been accessed in a while and emptying the Recycle Bin, which can have a several second delay. I can delete several files and right click on the recycle bin to empty which can take 5+ seconds to ask yes or cancel. This is odd as I was just accessing the drive with the deleted files. This sort of thing never occurred prior to the Areca. One of my theories is that Windows is having trouble keeping track of all these drives/partitions, which made me think of the screenshot of your drives. Any thoughts?

November 24th, 2009, 03:35 PM	#14
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	I also have all the power mgmt settings disabled. Maybe the Areca and 3ware drivers don't interact well.