DV Rack with HDV

[Jerry Matese]

Originally Posted by Mark Mapes

Absolutely. I'd say it's not a matter of if but when. In fact, at Serious Magic we're currently in the process of evaluating all of our product lines towards the end of mapping out our R&D course & schedule. As one of the proponents for putting DV50/DV100 support at the top of the list, I'd encourage all of you who are eager for that to make yourselves heard by dropping a note to me at mmapes@seriousmagic.com. The more the merrier.

Mark,

That's great news! While I'm dreaming, let's talk to R&D about a portable system that can capture two or more streams of time code synced DV50/DV100 and 4-8 channels of 24/96 discreet audio via a small format fire wire based outboard mic pre mixer. Just image a laptop or portable box capable of such a feet. The engineer/director would have the luxury of two calibrated on-sreen monitors and a virtual (pro tools/logic pro style) audio mixer. Control rooms and video trucks would become a thing of the past! Imagine how much folks would pay for such a thing!!!!!!!!!

[Alex Raskin]

Originally Posted by Mark Mapes

No on both counts. We've had several requests for the ability to record a separate audio stream, so that will be a strong candidate to be among the features in the next major version we release..

Let me strongly add my voice to the necessity of a separate audio stream recorded in sync with the video, but as a separate uncompressed file, with the ability to choose the audio Source.

Case in point: FX1/Z1 audio is not very good. So double system is needed. Double system = major inconvenience in post since one has to re-sync video with audio. Since audio did not start/stop when video recording did, it's hard to find the sync points.

Audio (in my case) is being recorded on a PC (same as used to capture live video stream!) via a very good quality mic preamp that outputs to PC via USB.

So... all the HDV rack has to do... is allow for USB sound source to be chosen as audio input... then record video as usual (including its audio data) PLUS a separate uncompressed audio file with the same name as video file, simultaneously. The system must provideo an accurate sync of audio and video, so later on, in NLE, all you have to do is manually adjust the audio file's beginning frame with video file's beginning frame to get a sync.

Possible?

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Alex Raskin

...Double system = major inconvenience in post since one has to re-sync video with audio. Since audio did not start/stop when video recording did, it's hard to find the sync points...

Worse, HDV recording in Rack does not record accurate timecode from the camera (every clip starts at 0:00), so we lose a major tool one would use in syncing double-system sound in post. HDV recording in Rack is useless to me until it lays down camera time code. The general idea here is that timecode can be used to sync two devices or two sources (duh). For some reason this wasn't recognized by as important by SM when HDVRack was released. Of course it is extremely important for multicamera iso and double system.

Strangely, DV recordings in Rack do lay down camera time code accurately, but when we get to the more "pro" HDV format, we lose basic functionality.

I'm just very frustrated with this, and have been since November when I bought the upgrade only to find out that it's not really functional with timecode. So far, product and company do not meet my expectations.

[Mark Mapes]

DV Rack's lead developer tells me he has conquered the timecode issues. We have not yet run a build to test, but it's a good bet that a forthcoming update will clear that issue off the boards.

We've recently discussed adding support for multi-track audio, and it's safe to say that it will be coming. It's too early to set even a target for the version that will include that capability.

[Heath Vinyard]

Originally Posted by Mark Mapes

DV Rack's lead developer tells me he has conquered the timecode issues. We have not yet run a build to test, but it's a good bet that a forthcoming update will clear that issue off the boards.

We've recently discussed adding support for multi-track audio, and it's safe to say that it will be coming. It's too early to set even a target for the version that will include that capability.

Hello Mark.
Thank you for addressing this issue. This has been the one thing that has held me back from purchasing. Could you give a time frame for this fix? Also, if I purchase DV Rack/HDV now, would the upgrade be free for the fix? This is in regard to the time code issue.

Thank you.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Has Serious Magic addressed the issue of HDV camera timecode in 2.0?

I'm happy to report that Sony Vegas now supports HDV camera timecode for firewire captures from the Z1, I've seen it work. Haven't yet tested out with other HDV cameras.

Would love to see this basic functionality in the HDV version of 2.0 - is it there?

[Karl Soule]

This didn't make it into the 2.0 release, but will be in the update coming hopefully next week.

We are also adding a new recording mode for HDV - MPEG-2 Program Stream recording. These files are much more compatible with older NLE's. Plus, in MPG mode, we are able to support HDV time-lapse, stop-motion, and more. This should also be a boon to FCP editors, since Final Cut won't read native M2T files.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Karl, I'm very disappointed in Serious Magic's apparent lack of dedication to their existing customers. Resolution of the HDV timecode issue was positioned to customers as something to be included in an update release of 1.x, and free.

Now, SM is encouraging upgrade to 2.x, and you are suggesting that there will be future update release of 2.x with working HDV timecode.

Do you see the credibility issue here? You only have to read 2 messages up in this thread to to see another SM rep writing that the issue was resolved in February! What happened to inclusion in the 1.2 release?

My story is this:
I purchased the HDV powerpack in Nov. 2005 for an upcoming hdv shoot that involved double-system sound.

Testing revealed that camera timecode was not recorded by DVRack in HDV... while standard def timecode has always functioned correctly.

I called a tech support person, who insisted that it did work, I then spun my wheels through several more rounds of testing, but I couldn't make it work, and I had to take a different approach for the project.

Since that time, in various telephone calls and forum postings I've been told by SM representatives that timecode doesn't exist in a firewire hdv stream, it does exist but in various places depending on camcorder manufacturer, the developer was off working on other SM products but would get to it "next week", and finally, that SM was aware of the issue and that a fix would be included in v1.2 (released late spring, as I recall).

Here we are, 10 months later, after an update release and a new version release, and no fix - but another soft committment that it'll happen next week.

Until this issue is resolved HDV in DVRack offers an incomplete solution for shoots involving double-system sound or multiple cameras, and some real obstacles to workflow. It doesn't work as well as DV. It does not deliver on the promise of enhanced workflow with hard-drive recording in the field.

Having each clip start at TC 0:00 does not support logging, double system sound, or multicamera shoots. Timecode is a foundational tool important in video production and workflow since the beginning of computer-aided editing in the early 1970s.

I'm trying to be restrained in this post, but please be aware that I am extremely frustrated with SM's initial release of an incomplete HDV HD recorder, lack of performance in resolving the issue, and inconsistency in their communications about the product and release plans.

[Mark Mapes]

I have no recollection of what derailed the HDV timecode support between Feb. when I posted that a fix was in works and late June when the patch was released--this issue slipped off my radar in the course of bouncing between several projects.

What I can assure you is that your post a week ago prompted DV Rack's lead developer to dig back into HDV timecode. He tells me he has the Sony cams covered. I'm nearly certain that I confirmed the fix, but I'll need to doublecheck that on Monday. We're down to a small handful of minor issues, so this patch should be available next week.

You cite several statements from our technical support personnel. With the exception of the assertion that DV Rack already supported HDV timecode, all of those statements reflected what we knew at the time. Since we were clearly on the learning curve, those statements should have been framed in terms of "as we understand things..." rather than as statements of absolute fact. To their credit, a few of the guys on the tech support crew took the initiative to research the matter to determine whether in fact there was timecode in the HDV stream. I distinctly recall them reporting that two different authorities had confirmed that no timecode existed in the data stream that was sent out over the Firewire.

If you feel that it unfair that an upgrade is required to get the forthcoming Sony HDV timecode support (and you wouldn't have bought the upgrade on its other merits anyway), then I encourage you to contact our customer support desk to discuss an acceptable solution.

Thank you for bringing this matter back to our attention.

[Karl Soule]

Hi Seth, (and others using HDV,)

At this point, there are 3 main flavors of HDV, and Sony is about to add a 4th. Just to be clear, I need to define them here:

720p/30p, recorded on JVC HD-1 or HD-10. Referred to here as "720p".

720p/30p or 24p, recorded on JVC HD-100 (or variant.) Referred to here as "ProHD 720."

1080i recorded on Sony or Canon cameras, referred to here as "1080i."

Sony is about to release a 1080p camera as well.


Now, regarding timecode - The original JVC 720p implentation does not output timecode out the FireWire port. Recording direct from an HD-1 or HD-10 will not include timecode information. This has been confirmed by JVC.

The ProHD 720 format recorded by the HD-100 and its variants does contain timecode.

The 1080i format also contains timecode, but very few NLE's have been able to read it. Vegas 7 is one of the few. DV Rack has always recorded the clips with timecode data, but it did not display the timecode until very recently. Our engineer has addressed that issue, and now the timecode data in a 1080i M2T file is displayed in DV Rack 2.1, which should ship in the next day or so.

According to a couple of sources, the timecode data in 1080i can also be off by as much as 15 frames (1 GOP) because it is only stored for the I-frames. I have not confirmed this yet with Sony, but I've heard it from several sources in the industry.

[Jerry Waters]

Sony is about to issue a 1080p camera? I saw the 24p that is recorded to tape as 1080i. Is this another one?

[Seth Bloombaum]

I've been in some off-forum discussions with Mr. Mapes of S.M., and can confirm that the Firewire stream from a 1080i camera does show correct timecode in Vegas V7, whether captured directly from tape or via DVRack/HDV hard drive recording. In fact, a recording he has made from a Sony FX1 to DVRack 1.2 shows correct camera timecode in Vegas V7.

He's also confirmed that the current version of 2.x (is that 2.1?) correctly displays TC from a 1080i camera, although Karl has indicated this may be the next build released.

He has made the point to me very strongly that anything pushed down firewire by the camcorder should be correctly recorded in DVRack, regardless of how DVR displays timecode. What this means to me is that if a tape capture from say, a JVC HD100 shows timecode in Vegas V7 so will a DVrack recording of the firewire stream.

I hope this is helpful to others' understanding of the status of HDV timecode in DVRack and other prosumer products - camcorder manufacturers initially agreed to a standard for HDV that was neuteral on TC position in the firewire stream, which has led to a real mess as NLE manufacturers try to figure it out, with DVRack right in the middle of the workflow. I'm just glad that the problem is slowly being recognized and solutions are finally coming.

[Karl Soule]

The "cine-look" modes on the Z1u and FX-1 are not actual 24p recording modes, but rather a way to simulate 24p in an interlaced format. These aren't recommended for 24p production.

Sony has a new camera coming out - the V1U, which uses CMOS sensors instead of CCD's, and has a true 1440x1080 progressive recording format. It can record 30p and 24p. Again, this will be another variant to the HDV spec. I don't have a lot of details about this camera yet, since there are only a handful in North America

Douglas Spotted Eagle has a review here - http://www.creativemac.com/articles/...e.jsp?id=67595

I do not have timecode information about this new format, but in keeping with the axiom of "record what the camera provides," if it's in there, DV Rack should record it. Now, we'll have to wait and see which NLE reads it. :)

[Jeff Kellam]

Originally Posted by Karl Soule

Hi Seth, (and others using HDV,)

Now, regarding timecode - The original JVC 720p implentation does not output timecode out the FireWire port. Recording direct from an HD-1 or HD-10 will not include timecode information. This has been confirmed by JVC.

This is, of course, wrong.

Obviously SM has not even done the most basic research, like look at the software provided with the GR HD-X cameras.

Even the JVC HD Capture Utility 1.0 software supplied with the cameras in 2003 showed the timecode. Of course the computer timecode is the same as that displayed on the camera display (or it would be useless).

What other simple facts has SM missed?

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

What other simple facts has SM missed?

It must be easy to miss simple facts, because the simple fact is, not all camcorders provide all of the information in the HDV stream.