So Premeire Pro is currently a better HDV solution? at DVinfo.net

Greg Jacobson · February 8th, 2005, 03:15 AM

I am using both Premiere Pro and Vegas. I am getting the Z1 this week and have been looking into which platform I should use. It appears that Cineform is more powerful with Premeire Pro than with Vegas. I have not used the Cineform product, just reading the info on their website.

So has Sony announced any plans to give us real time HDV editing in Vegas?

Rob Lohman · February 8th, 2005, 07:33 AM

What exactly would be more powerful? From my understanding
Cineform offers the same levels of performance on both Premiere
and Vegas.

From what I heard from some users, 1920 x 1080 in HDV will not
be realtime on any system at the moment.

Greg Jacobson · February 8th, 2005, 10:05 AM

Just reading directly off of the Cineform website.

It says the version for Vegas is "near real time" and that the version for Premeire Pro is "real time".

David Newman · February 8th, 2005, 10:17 AM

Yes, Currently Aspect HD (for Premiere Pro) offer about double for the performance of Connect HD (for Vegas.) Aspect HD includes a new video pipeline and 40+ real-time effects that exploit Premiere's hardware plug-in interface (although it does this with software only.) This is why AHD is so much faster.

Rob,

HDV encoded at 1440x1080 (Sony HDV) is real-time on modern P4 systems (note: Prospect HD supports 1920x1080 10-bit in real-time.) We regularly can mix up to 3 stream of Sony HDV at 30 frames per second on a 3+Ghz P4. Aspect HD performs like a hardware accelerater without any hardware upgrades.

Mark Kubat · February 8th, 2005, 07:17 PM

Key advantages so far for Prem Pro with mainconcept HDV plugin:

- renders seem faster than Vegas on same machine
- deinterlace capability on Prem Pro seems more straightforward in Prem Pro, helping to give more filmic type result from 60i/50i if you so chose...

Overall, I prefer Vegas for more straightforward, quicker editing - you just drag and overlap successive clips for transitions, etc...

It's just that some of the re-sampling that goes on in Vegas is a little wonky in terms of getting "unexpected" results.

25 fps/50i to 24p for instance doesn't seem to work as effectively as in say FCP...

Rob Lohman · February 9th, 2005, 06:23 AM

Okay, thanks for the info. I was expecting both products to perform
the same, oh well, can't have everything I guess! <g>

Great to hear it is realtime as well, not sure where I read that
it wasn't (so many posts).

Peter Jefferson · February 9th, 2005, 07:25 AM

"It says the version for Vegas is "near real time" and that the version for Premeire Pro is "real time"."

but what is really considered realtime?? Personally, if i have to stop a looped playback while im adjusting keyframes is NOT realtime.. not in my book. as what i am seeing is not in motion and im working with video, so i have to see motion to place my Keys correctly..

as for preview and playback, it depends on how important that is to your work. most people are happy with using a reference monitor for jsut that.. a reference monitor.. for colour and gamma correction etc..

in the end, they all have to render... realtime render is all good.. but at what sacrifice within the production process??

I dunno.. im still waiting for the dust to settle then i'll move to the one which works best for me..

Kevin Shaw · February 10th, 2005, 08:01 AM

<<<...what is really considered realtime?? >>>

Ah, that's the million-dollar marketing question, now isn't it? It's worth noting that almost everyone tries to bill their video editing products as "real time" these days, but some are much more so than others. To me, real time editing means you don't have to render anything to see the results played back at full quality on your computer, preferably with simultaneous full quality monitoring and full quality output to your choice of recording devices. In practice, every editing program has its limits, so none are truly real time under all circumstances.

With HDV in particular, I know of only one shipping solution with real time playback to both the computer screen and an external HDTV monitor, and none which can output in real time back to an HDV camera or to current HD distribution formats. Compared to DV editing options that's not very effiicent, and means it's going to take more time to produce an HDV video than a DV one.

Derek Serra · February 17th, 2005, 09:49 AM

I'm anxiously waiting for the long-promised "hdv" update to Premiere Pro. The long wait has me worried, as they're well into their second month of beta-testing. Let's hope the bugs are not insurmountable. As a long-time Premiere user, I'll probably go with 1.51 and Cineform, provided there's batch capture and export to tape! I've accepted that the only inexpensive way to preview on an external monitor is with the also unreleased Matrox HD card.

Kevin Shaw · February 18th, 2005, 11:44 AM

Derek: why wait for Adobe to trouble-shoot their free version of the Cineform plugin when you can buy the real thing and get better editing performance for a reasonable price?

As far as I know you're not going to get functional batch capture with most current HDV editing solutions, but that's so "20th century" anyway--it's time to stop worrying about that and just buy some big hard drives so you can do bulk captures of all your footage.

Regarding the Matrox video card with component outputs, are you sure that's not shipping yet? Seems like that should be happening soon if it hasn't already.

David Newman · February 18th, 2005, 12:05 PM

Also worth investigating (out now) is the NVidia power Quadro FX 540. We are get one (hopeful) next week.

Derek Serra · February 19th, 2005, 11:49 AM

I'm waiting for 1.51 only because it will support hdv export to camera. Presently even the $499 Aspect HD doesn't help me in that regard. Once I'm sure that export to tape with Premiere Pro is actually working, bug-free, I'll invest in Aspect HD. I've been burnt before by promises from software vendors - no export, no buy.

David Newman · February 19th, 2005, 12:02 PM

The feature you are requesting is working in the current version of Aspect HD (2.5b is fully tested in this regard), it is just a dormant feature awaiting the new Premiere release. We do plan another release upon the Premiere arrival which includes even more cool upgrades -- free to current users.

Greg Jacobson · February 19th, 2005, 02:49 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : The feature you are requesting is working in the current version of Aspect HD (2.5b is fully tested in this regard), it is just a dormant feature awaiting the new Premiere release. We do plan another release upon the Premiere arrival which includes even more cool upgrades -- free to current users. -->>>

Will this also be available for Connect HD?

David Newman · February 19th, 2005, 07:20 PM

Connect HD works today with Vegas 5.0d. Just get the latest Vegas download and Connect HD and you are set.

February 8th, 2005, 03:15 AM	#1
Greg Jacobson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New York Posts: 141	So Premeire Pro is currently a better HDV solution? I am using both Premiere Pro and Vegas. I am getting the Z1 this week and have been looking into which platform I should use. It appears that Cineform is more powerful with Premeire Pro than with Vegas. I have not used the Cineform product, just reading the info on their website. So has Sony announced any plans to give us real time HDV editing in Vegas?

February 8th, 2005, 07:33 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	What exactly would be more powerful? From my understanding Cineform offers the same levels of performance on both Premiere and Vegas. From what I heard from some users, 1920 x 1080 in HDV will not be realtime on any system at the moment. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

February 8th, 2005, 10:17 AM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes, Currently Aspect HD (for Premiere Pro) offer about double for the performance of Connect HD (for Vegas.) Aspect HD includes a new video pipeline and 40+ real-time effects that exploit Premiere's hardware plug-in interface (although it does this with software only.) This is why AHD is so much faster. Rob, HDV encoded at 1440x1080 (Sony HDV) is real-time on modern P4 systems (note: Prospect HD supports 1920x1080 10-bit in real-time.) We regularly can mix up to 3 stream of Sony HDV at 30 frames per second on a 3+Ghz P4. Aspect HD performs like a hardware accelerater without any hardware upgrades. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 8th, 2005, 07:17 PM	#5
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	we've tested both - like Prem pro better with FX1 Key advantages so far for Prem Pro with mainconcept HDV plugin: - renders seem faster than Vegas on same machine - deinterlace capability on Prem Pro seems more straightforward in Prem Pro, helping to give more filmic type result from 60i/50i if you so chose... Overall, I prefer Vegas for more straightforward, quicker editing - you just drag and overlap successive clips for transitions, etc... It's just that some of the re-sampling that goes on in Vegas is a little wonky in terms of getting "unexpected" results. 25 fps/50i to 24p for instance doesn't seem to work as effectively as in say FCP...

February 9th, 2005, 06:23 AM	#6
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Okay, thanks for the info. I was expecting both products to perform the same, oh well, can't have everything I guess! <g> Great to hear it is realtime as well, not sure where I read that it wasn't (so many posts). __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

February 8th, 2005, 10:05 AM	#3
Greg Jacobson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New York Posts: 141	Just reading directly off of the Cineform website. It says the version for Vegas is "near real time" and that the version for Premeire Pro is "real time".

February 9th, 2005, 07:25 AM	#7
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"It says the version for Vegas is "near real time" and that the version for Premeire Pro is "real time"." but what is really considered realtime?? Personally, if i have to stop a looped playback while im adjusting keyframes is NOT realtime.. not in my book. as what i am seeing is not in motion and im working with video, so i have to see motion to place my Keys correctly.. as for preview and playback, it depends on how important that is to your work. most people are happy with using a reference monitor for jsut that.. a reference monitor.. for colour and gamma correction etc.. in the end, they all have to render... realtime render is all good.. but at what sacrifice within the production process?? I dunno.. im still waiting for the dust to settle then i'll move to the one which works best for me..

February 10th, 2005, 08:01 AM	#8
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	<<<...what is really considered realtime?? >>> Ah, that's the million-dollar marketing question, now isn't it? It's worth noting that almost everyone tries to bill their video editing products as "real time" these days, but some are much more so than others. To me, real time editing means you don't have to render anything to see the results played back at full quality on your computer, preferably with simultaneous full quality monitoring and full quality output to your choice of recording devices. In practice, every editing program has its limits, so none are truly real time under all circumstances. With HDV in particular, I know of only one shipping solution with real time playback to both the computer screen and an external HDTV monitor, and none which can output in real time back to an HDV camera or to current HD distribution formats. Compared to DV editing options that's not very effiicent, and means it's going to take more time to produce an HDV video than a DV one.

February 17th, 2005, 09:49 AM	#9
Derek Serra Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 76	Premiere Pro 1.51 update? I'm anxiously waiting for the long-promised "hdv" update to Premiere Pro. The long wait has me worried, as they're well into their second month of beta-testing. Let's hope the bugs are not insurmountable. As a long-time Premiere user, I'll probably go with 1.51 and Cineform, provided there's batch capture and export to tape! I've accepted that the only inexpensive way to preview on an external monitor is with the also unreleased Matrox HD card. __________________ Derek Antonio Serra Indie Filmmaker www.indv.co.za

February 18th, 2005, 11:44 AM	#10
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Derek: why wait for Adobe to trouble-shoot their free version of the Cineform plugin when you can buy the real thing and get better editing performance for a reasonable price? As far as I know you're not going to get functional batch capture with most current HDV editing solutions, but that's so "20th century" anyway--it's time to stop worrying about that and just buy some big hard drives so you can do bulk captures of all your footage. Regarding the Matrox video card with component outputs, are you sure that's not shipping yet? Seems like that should be happening soon if it hasn't already.

February 18th, 2005, 12:05 PM	#11
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Also worth investigating (out now) is the NVidia power Quadro FX 540. We are get one (hopeful) next week. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 19th, 2005, 11:49 AM	#12
Derek Serra Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 76	I'm waiting for 1.51 only because it will support hdv export to camera. Presently even the $499 Aspect HD doesn't help me in that regard. Once I'm sure that export to tape with Premiere Pro is actually working, bug-free, I'll invest in Aspect HD. I've been burnt before by promises from software vendors - no export, no buy. __________________ Derek Antonio Serra Indie Filmmaker www.indv.co.za

February 19th, 2005, 12:02 PM	#13
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	The feature you are requesting is working in the current version of Aspect HD (2.5b is fully tested in this regard), it is just a dormant feature awaiting the new Premiere release. We do plan another release upon the Premiere arrival which includes even more cool upgrades -- free to current users. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 19th, 2005, 02:49 PM	#14
Greg Jacobson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New York Posts: 141	<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : The feature you are requesting is working in the current version of Aspect HD (2.5b is fully tested in this regard), it is just a dormant feature awaiting the new Premiere release. We do plan another release upon the Premiere arrival which includes even more cool upgrades -- free to current users. -->>> Will this also be available for Connect HD?

February 19th, 2005, 07:20 PM	#15
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Connect HD works today with Vegas 5.0d. Just get the latest Vegas download and Connect HD and you are set. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman