Adobe Premiere discussions from 2003

[Dany Nativel]

What about this ?

http://www.onerivermedia.com/codecs/testing.htm

Now I'm confused (again) about going to uncompressed from DV for FX or stay with DV all the time!

From the above website :
DV -> uncompressed
Blackmagic Design 10-bit 4:2:2 Here BMD converts the image to it's 4:2:2 color space... in 16-bpc no less. Notice the color filtering on the color filtering. Obviously this is not an exact replication from the DV image... even by the most accurate codecs in the 4:2:2 bunch.

uncompressed back to DV
"Notice again there is further loss. The contouring is heavier and blocks more than the original DV image."


Another interesting reading :
http://www.onerivermedia.com/codecs/...es/adam_dv.htm

[Bryan Roberts]

Hey all. This may be a stupid question, but I have a 16 mm project approaching in the next month for a class and I plan to edit on my home Premiere setup but I wasn't sure if this was possible. Our footage is going to be processed and then transferred onto a DV tape. Does this mean that I just capture the video through Premiere the same as I would my normal DV projects? What effect will transferring the 24 frame 16mm footage to DV tape and then capturing it on Premiere have on the overall look of the film? Thanks!

-Bryan.

[Peter Moore]

If the film is being transferred to DV tape, then you can import the tape normally.

Most likely 3:2 pulldown will be employed. What you will have in the end is essentially a video transfer at 60i. You should thus be able to edit it normally.

As for the overall look, well it certainly won't be as good as if you edited the 16mm film natively or if you transferred to HD (a shame you can't do the latter). But it should look as good as any DVD or commercially produced video. You just won't have the high resolution.

[Rob Lohman]

These things are probably the result of color space conversion.
An NTSC DV stream is 4:1:1 (PAL is 4:2:0). This gets converted
into 4:2:2 and if you convert it back to DV back into 4:1:1 or
4:2:0. This will probably generate some very small conversion
(rouding?) errors.

[Jason Tammemagi]

Thanks for the advice folks,
I've definitely found that I'm losing quality with the dv compression, especially noticable in high contrast areas. As much of my short is shot by torchlight. it is a real problem. That coupled with the fact that I've been doing a lot of colour correcting which has increased some contrast even further has meant that the dv compression was really working against me.

But I've found by rendering the footage out uncompressed, that isn't a problem. It still obviously has evidence that is was once compressed (again noticable in high contrast sequences), but it does not get any worse at all.

The files are HUGE though, so I've had to invest in a new hard drive. Out of curiosity, for those who are rendering to image sequences, what formats are you using? TGAs?

Thanks,
Jay.

[Gary Bettan]

Guys, it's obvious that Adobe and other vendors list minimum system specs that while the program may run, you will not be satisfied with the results. I can't stand this practice, but it seems it will not go away. So here for the record is our minimum recommended system for running Premiere Pro and liking what you get:

- 2+ Ghz P4 processor or Athlon Eqiv.
- 512+ Megs of RAM
- A dedicated 7200 RPM drive for video (can be EIDE, FireWire, SCSI or Serial ATA)
- A decent 3D graphics card with 64+ Megs of RAM. (I recommend a dual head card - once you go dual you'll never go back)

You will find that the more CPU speed you give Premiere Pro, the better it runs. Not just real-time stuff, but overall responsiveness. So get the fastest CPU you can afford. This will also speed up your encoding to DVD.

And users will still see some pretty significant benfits from 3rd party hardware accelerators like the RTX100 or Storm. Matrox just sent us over some very good info on what benefits the RTX100 w/ Premiere Pro will bring you. Here is my boiled down version:

1) Analog & DV I/O a good DV/AV converter like the ADVC100 will cost you around $300 bucks

2) Real-time analog, DV & MPEG2 output. For many of us the real-time MPEG2 output is now just as or more important then real-time output to tape. Final outputs with premiere pro must be rendered.

3) Real-time color correction with TV output. Color correction needs a video monitor to get the best results. The Matrox color correction tool is not as slick as the new Premiere pro, but it's pretty easy to use. The auto white balance is a great time saver.

4) Matrox real-time 3D FX and filters. These are very high quslity with superb keyframing tools. you can preview the FX while you are working with them on your external video monitor.

5) The RTX100 single pass scan and capture tool is fantastic. It goes beyond batch capturing. On the fly your video is broken down into clips. unwanted clips can be deleted to free up disk space.

6) For AE users the WYSIWYG video output is a very nice tool.

If you order the RTX100 w/ Premiere 6.5 today, you get a FREE upgrade to Premiere Pro, Encore DVD & Audition!! That's an incredible deal for $999.95!!!

Gary
Videoguys.com

[BJ Thomas]

Ok found a bug in premiere pro. I use story boards when editing wedding. In Premiere Pro when ever you import a new video it conforms the video so that the audio is converted to 32 bit. Now the conforming can take anywhere from 2 minutes to 10 minutes depending on size of video clip. After the video is conformed, if you go check the conformed audio folder you will notice that the size of the folder is for 1 hour video is about 2 gigs.
Now create a new bin and rename it as story board. Edit the one video file that you brought in and grab a few subclips from main video and drag into storyboard folder. You can now play that clip back and save a header for each clip to identify it. You won't experience any problem till you decide to save the project as a new file. Then Adobe Premiere thinks that each of those clips in the storyboard are new clips instead of links to the main video. It then decides to conform each clip even if it is under 4 secs long to the size of the original clips. So if you have 30 linked files in your storyboard bin it will create 30 two gig file, taking up whooping 60 gig disk space. So becareful when using save as feature and storyboards with lots of files.

[James Emory]

I am cutting with Premiere 5.1c. I have worked on projects that were an hour and 15 to 20 minutes maximum with 4 sources in one project in the past and was maybe just under the limit or lucky. But I am now working on one that is an hour and 45 minutes with 5 sources. Well, at about an hour and 20 minutes into the timeline, strange things began to happen and there was a lot of crashes, application errors as it described it. A couple of times a box that said not enough memory would appear. I assume this would be Premiere's memory capacity because I have plenty of RAM. Eventually Premiere would not even launch and with 60 hours of work on the line I became nervous. Luckily I had heard of maximum project length issues and decided to cut the project in half into two seperate ones and these problems went away. Even trying to delete content in bulk using the multiple clip tool crashed Premiere so I had to shorten the project a few clips at a time from part one to shorten it to about an hour. What is the maximum project length for a single project for 5.1, 6.5 and 7.0?

[Ed Frazier]

Hi James, I use 6.1 and the maximum length is 3.0 hours. I've edited projects that long on several occasions with no problems, but Premiere will issue a warning if you try to put more than three hours on the timeline. I don't know if that limit has been increased in later versions.

[Mark Jefferson]

Hi James,

I use Premiere 6.5, and I have heard that there is a limit of three hours to a project. I personally have never had a project go that long; I can only fit approx. 140 minutes (2 hours 20 minutes) on a DVD, so I break my projects up so they will fit in the alloted time. I do agree however, that the more video tracks you use, the more unstable Premiere becomes. I just finished a multi-cam wedding with two cams, and I had a real problem with locking up. Luckily, I know to save my project (CNTL + S) EVERY time I make a change to the timeline. I've been through the wringer before where I lost hours worth of work because Premiere crashed. I don't know about Premiere Pro, I have to pay off my new GL2 before I buy anything else (at least according to my wife).

Cheers,
Mark Jefferson

[Peter Jefferson]

err.. sorry to sound irksome, but WHY would you (or it) WANT to convert the audio to 32bit? the raw data off tape is only 16bit 48khz... so using any format with a higher bitrate than that is pointless and time wasting.... unless your going DVDAudio which your not...

BJ, i dont mean to sound like im comparing but i jsut have to mention this considering the issue your bringing up.

This is amazin that this type of file management is required, I mean heres a perfect example of how Vegas works.

this is REGARDLESS of teh project you choose or the audio driver or channels you wish to have....

1) Capture a 1hr DV tape in DVAvi format standard 48khz
2) add file to your media pool or it will automaicaly be added for you depending n how you capture.
3) click and drag the whole file to the timeline
4) Split (S on the keyboard) your file into segments
5) arrange these any way you like. Shorten, cut, delete, effect, slow mo and stretch etc etc each split component of the one file. You roriginal is untouched.
6)When your happy Render

When working with multiple cameras all you need to do is sync them or run tsunami scripts and add your split points when you want to change angle...
no joke it takes about 5 minutes

that just a basic break down which does not require the need to "conform" the original and doesnt require any processing or saving clips off the main file.

Even though people are happy with the tools at their disposal, there is no denying that Vegas is an extremely effective package.
What you have described makes me assume that what your describing takes a substantial amount of time to prepare and reuires copius amounts of storage space.
In Vegas you just need room for your master captured file.

Oh by the way loading times.. i dont know how long your project is, but im currently working with 10 hours worth of footage DV on the timeline and breaking it down into an hour and half wedding presentation using the split technique above.

6 video tracks with 10 hours footage, 12 audio tracks for a 5.1 Surround project and loading the project initally takes about 12 seconds.

Finally the comparison of this, to what you are describing prety much shows me that i made the right decision in staying with Vegas. Ive been using vegas since its inception and i have bene considering a change.
Needless to say i havent changed.

Oh to create a new file from a main capture using vegas (as youve desrcibed), all you need to do is either highlight the area you require and render (it will automatically be added to your media pool/media bin.. this wirks with still as well) OR split that part, copy it and paste it to a new track....

I hope this gives you some basic insight into how Vegas manages its files.
There are many other ways to work with your files in Vegas using the trimmer and Bin features, but in all honesty, i dont need to go into that in this case, as your working from a master and making clips which are going to be used within the same project.

cheers
P

[BJ Thomas]

Peter, I have used Vegas Video but i feel more comfortable in Premiere. The conforming happens when you import video . Vegas also does something similar to this when you are importing files. What is happening in Premiere , where it is eating up disk space is a bug in the program. Vegas is a great program but Premiere is what works for me because I am able to use Adobe auditon , encore, after effects and photoshop with premiere and lot of times I am able to keep different layers. Everything else about premiere pro I love except this bug.

Adobe conforms the audio to 32 bit for performance improvement.
Taken from digitalvideoediting.com.

"This basically makes your audio more responsive and more accessible to Premiere. This paves the way for high quality, real time audio performance. I’ve noticed that conforming audio eliminates issues when working with MP3’s or when working with clips that have varying sample rates or file formats"

[Peter Jefferson]

hey BJ I totally appreciate your feelings about working with a whole series of apps which work hand in hand, however that comment below may be good for premiere pro,
but

This basically makes your audio more responsive and more accessible to Premiere. This paves the way for high quality, real time audio performance. "

My response to that is-
Maybe within the application it may provide a higher qulaity resample rate, however the CPU workload will increase as it reads a higher bitrate file. Not to mention soundcard compatibility. Some soundcards DONT support 32bit audio, therefore there will be increased bandwidth taken up by the SW audio decoder. Again more juice require from CPU.
With DV CPU juice is paramount to a fast and smooth stutter free workflow.
I do not agree with the logic behind converting a sample rate considering the original is inferior to begin with. Once your audio is recorded thats it, no amount of resampling can "improve" the sound quality. reprocessing yes, resampling raw data to a higher bitrate, no.

Audio characteristics will not change, however resampling to a higher bitrate may require audio interpolation depending on teh media <as its being resampled> , and lack of accuracy during interpolation may in fact cause distortions within audio the file. This could be detrimental when working with DVD and 5.1 Metadata information during AC3 encoding, as the freq distortion caused by the interpolation algorithms may cause Freq diturbances which could be recognised by the Decoder.
Notice i said "could", most likely this isnt an issue, but anyway...
I honestly cant see how 32 bit audio would improve the final output considering the final output is will need to be rndered back to 16bit 48khz...
Most apps Ive used which require a 32bit audio stream are the ones which have issues with interpolation and resample accuracy during effects reprocessing.
ie bitrates are higher so distortion levels are lower and smoother when using effects.
Therefore resampling the file to a higher bitrate allows a smoother re-process throughout the file during processing.
This resampling isnt necessary on most software apps and plugins, however some do require resampling as they DONT use an interpolation routine.
Ive seen MANY plugins which suffer this symptom, its common and it cuases no harm to the naked ear.
With audio there are MANY differnet way of doing this, i jsut feel that it is an unnecessary process you have to go thru to use audio.

Basically, breaking it down like this, theoretically shows me that the audio processing within premiere pro is weak compared to vegas and Forge and requires a higher bitrate to cover up the audio flaws during processing.

"I’ve noticed that conforming audio eliminates issues when working with MP3’s or when working with clips that have varying sample rates or file formats"

Again, conforming within Vegas is not required as it reads almost any audio format you throw at it. Actualy it reads every audio format apart from CD audio and AC3, it can rip a cd to audio and place it in your media pool thou...
This non conformity again saves time, and compatibility with variable formats is a non-issue.

With regard to Vegas' own conforming, i have not come across this, from VOB to mp3, to tiff to jpg to animated gif, thru to wmv, QT etc etc except divx <it can output divx thou> i havent had it ever ask me to convert anything for it to run the file.

Everyone has the tools which work for them.
Im just explaing how maybe on certain projects, Vegas might be a better tool for people experiencing this problem you are describing.

In the end not only do you have a file double up issue, but you have a resampling requirement which IMO is a waste of time and resources.

Premiere is good no doubt, but its so cumbersome it can sometimes frustrate me to no end... If it wasnt for the Storm card supporting it, id uninstall it.. :(
I use premiere 6 alongside Vegas and use different apps for different requirements, But I wont be upgrading to P/Pro if the workflow requires this kind of "over management"....
I dont have the time for it.

Good luck with sorting out this glitch thou.. im sure there are afew others like all apps, god i remember vegas used to die when i hit undo while running ASIO drivers... LOL

Nothings perfect, so we should all be greatful we are given some incredible tools to earn a living with :)

[Julian Luttrell]

Peter,

the quality of audio effects will benefit greatly from 32 bit precision over 16/20/24 bit, in exactly the same way that cinema format digital video compositing systems work at 16 or 32 bit per channel - it makes for many, many more digital values leading to smooth results with no banding.

This will be more apparent with many effects applied one over the other, than with a single effect.

But this is completely different from "resampling". Resampling occurs when the sample rate of the source audio is different from the result required - for example a miniDV camera typically records at 32 KHz sample rate, but a DVD's audio is 48KHz. To convert one to the other requires the computer to effectively recreate the analog audio signal from the 32 KHz source, and then redigitise that at 48KHz - this two way journey introduces artifacts. It's like PAL to NTSC conversion - the result is always softer than the source footage.

However, provided the source and result have the same sample rate, converting from 24 to 32 bit is an invisible activity to the ear since there is no need to interpolate anything. All that happens is to copy a short binary number into a longer binary destination - 100% accurate with no two way journey. Of course, the results do not reflect the higher fidelity possible with 32 bits, but are exactly the same as the source audio.

Regards,

Julian

[BJ Thomas]

Since I upgraded to Premiere Pro and have used it for about 3 weeks I have to say I can't ever go back to premiere 6.5. There are so many good things that to work in it now is a pleasure. Everything works as advertised (except storyboard with the bug)and it is very stable so far. They also provide a free plugin called movie looks by magic bullet and some of the outputs I have done with it is amazing.



Now in Vegas Video, when you import a video clip that you captured in another program, it builds peaks and I am not sure if it is conforming the audio the same way Premiere is doing and it takes about the same time that Premiere does.