Serious Magic DVRack

Dan Mumford · February 26th, 2005, 12:10 PM

I misunderstood your use of DV Rack. I thought you wanted to usit while capturing, but after re-reading your post, I see you want to use it in conjunction with Premier Pro. As Rob said, I'd use the vectorscope and waveform monitors in Premier Pro.

My original reply was for capturing the video from the GV-D1000, which you could do using the laptop with DV Rack on it. My suggestion was to capture to an external hard drive connected to the laptop, observing it in Dv Rack, then connect the external hard drive to your editing computer and importing to Premier Pro.

I haven't gotten my Dv Rack yet, (on back-order) but I understand it is for checking the video as you shoot it. This will help you make corrections in the camcorder settings to get good footage.

Dan

Paul Jason · March 2nd, 2005, 09:08 AM

I downloaded the rebate and was reading it over, I'm starting to wonder if I'm to late to get in on this deal.

It says,

• Purchase one (1) copy of DV Rack between February 1, 2005 and March 31, 2005.

• Complete and mail this form with the original UPC bar code, a copy of the DV Rack receipt dated between February 1, 2005 and March 1, 2005.

• All requests must be postmarked by April 30, 2005.

How can a person purchase a copy of DV Rack between February 1, 2005 and March 31, 2005 and mail a copy of the DV Rack receipt dated between February 1, 2005 and March 1, 2005. Looks like if you purchased it after March 1st, your out. On the other hand, at the top it says you have till March 31 to purchase it. Have I missed something here or is this a type -o- ?

Mark Mapes · March 2nd, 2005, 12:01 PM

This is indeed a typo. Where it reads "March 1, 2005," it should be "March 31, 2005." Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We'll have a corrected form posted asap. Just to be safe, it's probably best wait and use the corrected form--the folks at the rebate redemption companies can be terribly literal even when they know better.

Paul Jason · March 2nd, 2005, 12:28 PM

Thanks for the information Mark!

Mark Mapes · March 2nd, 2005, 01:14 PM

All fixed. Thanks again for pointing out this oversight.

Ashley Cooper · March 4th, 2005, 08:51 PM

You've got to figure at some time soon that DV Rack will come out with an HD version of their DV Rack software. Talk about a cheap way to get true and clean HD! Combining it with the P2 camera everyone here is all astir about would really rock. I doubt Panasonic would be able to give an answer to this, but theoretically would it be possible to pass DVC Pro HD down from a camera like this through firewire 800 to a laptop to use an HD version of DVRack?
Of course, DV Rack is PC only right now, so that might be a problem.
Anyway, just wondering how doable this might be. Any thoughts are appreciated!

Barry Green · March 4th, 2005, 09:33 PM

Total speculation at this point. However, one thing I can point to is that desktop firewire editing of DVCPRO-HD is here already -- both Apple and Avid support importing the footage from a DVCPRO-HD firewire-equipped deck.

So is it unreasonable to assume that DV Rack could also import that same firewire signal? Complicating things is that the DVCPRO-HD data rate is 4x as high as the DV/HDV data rate, 100 megabits vs. 25 megabits.

Then you have the frame size to contend with; 720p is about 3x as many pixels per frame as DV, 1080i can be as many as about 6x as many, and 720p is also about 6x as many total pixels per second than DV is, so you'd either need an *extremely* fast computer, or be willing to put up with slower performance (5fps for 720p vs. realtime for DV, for example). That's a tradeoff I'd take, I'd rather have the option than not have the option! Especially because as computers become faster, the playback rate automatically will be better...

In short, I bet it's do-able, but not necessarily practical right now unless people are willing to accept 5fps playback rates, and scaled-down monitor preview. I'd love to see them develop it though!

Ashley Cooper · March 5th, 2005, 06:33 PM

Thanks, Barry. Sounds like things are a ways off. Perhaps when multicore processors come out it will be easier to get decent playback. Of course, PC laptops would also need to incorporate firewire 800, which I don't believe any of them do right now. Perhaps things would be easier if the firewire from the camera was able to work like the P2 cards are said to and only send the bandwidth you are effectively using. So if you were working in 24p, you'd only need to send 40 megabits instead 100.
What about some kind of workaround? Could you take the component out of the camera, pass it through a transcoder like the Canopus ADVC-500 and go firewire out to a laptop? I'm guessing not as the ADVC-500 seems to be limited to SD resolutions. I'm also guessing that when the new P2 camera comes out that it won't be able to downconvert to SD, and if it did, you'd be missing the point of checking HD signals.

Barry Green · March 5th, 2005, 11:37 PM

The DVCPRO-HD data stream is theoretically capable of being transported over a regular firewire system, 100 megabits isn't all that much, you shouldn't need FW800 for that.

We don't know if the camera will support firewire streaming at all, first of all. Second, if it does, we don't know if it supports streaming just the unique frames (i.e., 40 mbps out of 100mbps for 24p) or if it transfers the entire 100mbps. If it can support just sending the unique frames, that would be well within the capability of current firewire technology.

However, the processor speed issue is still going to affect it. I mean, the people at Serious Magic have done *amazing* work in getting the program to display color-corrected, zebra-clipped, aspect-ratio-converted DV at 60 fields per second -- that's quite an accomplishment, but doing so at six times as many pixels would be tough. Of course, 720/24p wouldn't be six times as many pixels, it'd be a littel over twice as many pixels... hmm, that might be in the realm of do-ability!

Someone get Serious Magic on the phone... :)

Brad Abrahams · March 6th, 2005, 10:47 AM

Remember that DVCPRO HD is undersampled to 960x720 and 1280x1080, so you would not be dealing with full frame HD.

Barry Green · March 6th, 2005, 02:54 PM

All HD recording formats currently available undersample the frame (HDCAM = 1440x1080, HDV=1440x1080).

So there would be less raw pixels, yes, which would help improve performance some, but then it'd have to be upsampled for display because most (all?) computer screens use square pixels, so it might net out the same. Actually might net out more in favor of speed, as the smaller frame means the manipulations (for color for the monitor, for adding zebra etc) could be done on the smaller frame size, and then up-rezzed once for display!

Ashley Cooper · March 7th, 2005, 01:26 AM

Very cool, thank you both for your responses. Seems like it is or will soon be theoretically possible. We just have to get the Panasonic and DV Rack to talk!

Barry Green · March 7th, 2005, 09:17 AM

Oh, I'm sure they already are. Jan at Panasonic has started a special bundle deal where they're including DV Rack with a camera bag, I think they call it the "Serious Production" bundle. So there's an existing relationship, hopefully this will lead to a DVCPRO-HD and DVCPRO50 version of DV Rack!

David Hurdon · March 11th, 2005, 07:18 AM

I'm intrigued by the teleprompter functionality of Ultra but wonder how convincing the results are, given the small print (forced proximity to the screen) and separation of camera lens and, say, laptop screen. Can anyone with experience of it comment on whether that aspect of its capabilities is up to the purchase price?

David Hurdon

Jeremy Rank · March 11th, 2005, 11:15 AM

I use it for lot's of my productions. Unlike NLEs, Ultra doesn't care if you're using a wrinkled or poorly lit screen...it just works.

For the BG prompter, I make a motion BG and add my title to it and span it for the length of my green screen shot. When I get to Ultra, it just drops into the BG without any problems and looks pretty convincing.

As if that wasn't good enough, I did a wedding and did interviews with my green screen. Without thinking, I had the bride hold up her boquet to conceal her handheld mic. When I got it into Ultra, I figured that the bride shot was going to be worthless since I had shot it with her green-leafed boquet in front of her....you know, Ultra was able to cut the screen, but leave the boquet untouched!

Ultra lets you select multiple shades of green to key out of your BG...so it doesn't matter if it's unevenly lit, you can just set 25+ key shades to knock out.

February 26th, 2005, 12:10 PM	#136
Dan Mumford Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Daytona Beach, Florida Posts: 99	I misunderstood your use of DV Rack. I thought you wanted to usit while capturing, but after re-reading your post, I see you want to use it in conjunction with Premier Pro. As Rob said, I'd use the vectorscope and waveform monitors in Premier Pro. My original reply was for capturing the video from the GV-D1000, which you could do using the laptop with DV Rack on it. My suggestion was to capture to an external hard drive connected to the laptop, observing it in Dv Rack, then connect the external hard drive to your editing computer and importing to Premier Pro. I haven't gotten my Dv Rack yet, (on back-order) but I understand it is for checking the video as you shoot it. This will help you make corrections in the camcorder settings to get good footage. Dan __________________ Wow! That thing must have cost an arm and a leg! - - - It did! I used to have three of each.

March 2nd, 2005, 12:01 PM	#138
Mark Mapes Serious Magic Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 68	This is indeed a typo. Where it reads "March 1, 2005," it should be "March 31, 2005." Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We'll have a corrected form posted asap. Just to be safe, it's probably best wait and use the corrected form--the folks at the rebate redemption companies can be terribly literal even when they know better. __________________ Mark Mapes OnLocation QA Manager, Adobe Systems

March 2nd, 2005, 01:14 PM	#140
Mark Mapes Serious Magic Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 68	All fixed. Thanks again for pointing out this oversight. __________________ Mark Mapes OnLocation QA Manager, Adobe Systems

March 4th, 2005, 08:51 PM	#141
Ashley Cooper Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 85	DVC Pro HD and DV Rack? You've got to figure at some time soon that DV Rack will come out with an HD version of their DV Rack software. Talk about a cheap way to get true and clean HD! Combining it with the P2 camera everyone here is all astir about would really rock. I doubt Panasonic would be able to give an answer to this, but theoretically would it be possible to pass DVC Pro HD down from a camera like this through firewire 800 to a laptop to use an HD version of DVRack? Of course, DV Rack is PC only right now, so that might be a problem. Anyway, just wondering how doable this might be. Any thoughts are appreciated!

March 11th, 2005, 07:18 AM	#149
David Hurdon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 484	Experience with Ultra (Serious Magic) I'm intrigued by the teleprompter functionality of Ultra but wonder how convincing the results are, given the small print (forced proximity to the screen) and separation of camera lens and, say, laptop screen. Can anyone with experience of it comment on whether that aspect of its capabilities is up to the purchase price? David Hurdon __________________ Site:http://www.faceliftmarketing.ca Blog:http://www.websitevideo.blogspot.com

March 2nd, 2005, 09:08 AM	#137
Paul Jason Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 163	I downloaded the rebate and was reading it over, I'm starting to wonder if I'm to late to get in on this deal. It says, • Purchase one (1) copy of DV Rack between February 1, 2005 and March 31, 2005. • Complete and mail this form with the original UPC bar code, a copy of the DV Rack receipt dated between February 1, 2005 and March 1, 2005. • All requests must be postmarked by April 30, 2005. How can a person purchase a copy of DV Rack between February 1, 2005 and March 31, 2005 and mail a copy of the DV Rack receipt dated between February 1, 2005 and March 1, 2005. Looks like if you purchased it after March 1st, your out. On the other hand, at the top it says you have till March 31 to purchase it. Have I missed something here or is this a type -o- ?

March 2nd, 2005, 12:28 PM	#139
Paul Jason Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 163	Thanks for the information Mark!

March 4th, 2005, 09:33 PM	#142
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Total speculation at this point. However, one thing I can point to is that desktop firewire editing of DVCPRO-HD is here already -- both Apple and Avid support importing the footage from a DVCPRO-HD firewire-equipped deck. So is it unreasonable to assume that DV Rack could also import that same firewire signal? Complicating things is that the DVCPRO-HD data rate is 4x as high as the DV/HDV data rate, 100 megabits vs. 25 megabits. Then you have the frame size to contend with; 720p is about 3x as many pixels per frame as DV, 1080i can be as many as about 6x as many, and 720p is also about 6x as many total pixels per second than DV is, so you'd either need an extremely fast computer, or be willing to put up with slower performance (5fps for 720p vs. realtime for DV, for example). That's a tradeoff I'd take, I'd rather have the option than not have the option! Especially because as computers become faster, the playback rate automatically will be better... In short, I bet it's do-able, but not necessarily practical right now unless people are willing to accept 5fps playback rates, and scaled-down monitor preview. I'd love to see them develop it though!

March 5th, 2005, 06:33 PM	#143
Ashley Cooper Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 85	Thanks, Barry. Sounds like things are a ways off. Perhaps when multicore processors come out it will be easier to get decent playback. Of course, PC laptops would also need to incorporate firewire 800, which I don't believe any of them do right now. Perhaps things would be easier if the firewire from the camera was able to work like the P2 cards are said to and only send the bandwidth you are effectively using. So if you were working in 24p, you'd only need to send 40 megabits instead 100. What about some kind of workaround? Could you take the component out of the camera, pass it through a transcoder like the Canopus ADVC-500 and go firewire out to a laptop? I'm guessing not as the ADVC-500 seems to be limited to SD resolutions. I'm also guessing that when the new P2 camera comes out that it won't be able to downconvert to SD, and if it did, you'd be missing the point of checking HD signals.

March 5th, 2005, 11:37 PM	#144
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The DVCPRO-HD data stream is theoretically capable of being transported over a regular firewire system, 100 megabits isn't all that much, you shouldn't need FW800 for that. We don't know if the camera will support firewire streaming at all, first of all. Second, if it does, we don't know if it supports streaming just the unique frames (i.e., 40 mbps out of 100mbps for 24p) or if it transfers the entire 100mbps. If it can support just sending the unique frames, that would be well within the capability of current firewire technology. However, the processor speed issue is still going to affect it. I mean, the people at Serious Magic have done amazing work in getting the program to display color-corrected, zebra-clipped, aspect-ratio-converted DV at 60 fields per second -- that's quite an accomplishment, but doing so at six times as many pixels would be tough. Of course, 720/24p wouldn't be six times as many pixels, it'd be a littel over twice as many pixels... hmm, that might be in the realm of do-ability! Someone get Serious Magic on the phone... :)

March 6th, 2005, 10:47 AM	#145
Brad Abrahams Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 65	Remember that DVCPRO HD is undersampled to 960x720 and 1280x1080, so you would not be dealing with full frame HD.

March 6th, 2005, 02:54 PM	#146
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	All HD recording formats currently available undersample the frame (HDCAM = 1440x1080, HDV=1440x1080). So there would be less raw pixels, yes, which would help improve performance some, but then it'd have to be upsampled for display because most (all?) computer screens use square pixels, so it might net out the same. Actually might net out more in favor of speed, as the smaller frame means the manipulations (for color for the monitor, for adding zebra etc) could be done on the smaller frame size, and then up-rezzed once for display!

March 7th, 2005, 01:26 AM	#147
Ashley Cooper Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 85	Very cool, thank you both for your responses. Seems like it is or will soon be theoretically possible. We just have to get the Panasonic and DV Rack to talk!

March 7th, 2005, 09:17 AM	#148
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Oh, I'm sure they already are. Jan at Panasonic has started a special bundle deal where they're including DV Rack with a camera bag, I think they call it the "Serious Production" bundle. So there's an existing relationship, hopefully this will lead to a DVCPRO-HD and DVCPRO50 version of DV Rack!

March 11th, 2005, 11:15 AM	#150
Jeremy Rank Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Visalia, CA Posts: 66	I use it for lot's of my productions. Unlike NLEs, Ultra doesn't care if you're using a wrinkled or poorly lit screen...it just works. For the BG prompter, I make a motion BG and add my title to it and span it for the length of my green screen shot. When I get to Ultra, it just drops into the BG without any problems and looks pretty convincing. As if that wasn't good enough, I did a wedding and did interviews with my green screen. Without thinking, I had the bride hold up her boquet to conceal her handheld mic. When I got it into Ultra, I figured that the bride shot was going to be worthless since I had shot it with her green-leafed boquet in front of her....you know, Ultra was able to cut the screen, but leave the boquet untouched! Ultra lets you select multiple shades of green to key out of your BG...so it doesn't matter if it's unevenly lit, you can just set 25+ key shades to knock out.