[Windows] Exporting workflow from PP CS4 not using Media Encoder at DVinfo.net

Markus Klatt · June 2nd, 2009, 01:17 PM

Hi there,

I tried asking several times now, eg. here, and this is my last try. I am simply at the end and have no clue:

I have native footage from Sony EX1 (mp4 or MXF container with mpeg 2 long GOP codec) which I cut and slightly filter/modify in Premiere Pro CS4.1.
Most times I shoot in 1080/50i (yes, I need that format) and need both: FullHD for Blu-ray and PAL-SD for DVDs of the same footage.
Most of you will confirm, that simply downscaling with AME gives terrible results. So I use some workflows with VDub and/or AviSynth to deinterlace and downscale and then encode with TMPGEnc Xpress for DVDs.

Here is the problem: CS4 does not allow debugmode frameserver anymore so I have to render an intermediate file for further use at above mentioned workflows.

But how do I get valid intermediate video files out from CS4? Uncompressed AVI is pure horror, its slow rendering, even on an i7-PC, and giant file size. I would like to export with HuffYuv or Lagarith codec, for example. But everybody says, EX1-footage is, as all HD footage, TopFieldFirst. When exporting "Microsoft AVI" with those codecs one has to choose BottomFieldFirst - all other tries result in black video. I assume only BFF is valid in Microsoft AVI somehow.

I would like to use Cineform but converting footage with NeoScene is only possible from HDV/AVCHD-camcorders and when exporting with its codec as Microsoft AVI it has the same BFF-only-problem. And I cannot afford NeoHD which would do my job perfectly with EX1-footage.

How the heck do you export FullHD footage (with TopFieldFirst) for further use from PP CS4, please?

Any hint is appreciated, even if you write that you have no solution for me or that I am simply on the wrong way.

At the moment I am lost,
thanks a lot,
yours
Markus

Devin Termini · June 3rd, 2009, 08:27 PM

You could try using the AVID DNxHD intermediate codecs. They're free!
Will it maintain field order? Not exactly sure, but it's worth a try.

Markus Klatt · June 9th, 2009, 12:33 AM

Thanks Devin, I just checked the Avid website and downloaded the LE codec package. I now have to change from "Microsoft AVI" to "Quicktime" since the package contains QuickTime codecs only. But I will try...

But they write the following on the download page:

Quote:

PAL DV resolutions have an even (lower field first) ordering.
1080i HD has an even (lower field first) ordering.

First is that what I know and expected. But they tell LFF for 1080i HD-footage too?!?! I am deeply confused. Everybody says, 1080i would be TFF and after exporting my HD footage in TFF my videos look sharper. Is it a typo on the Avid-website?

I am very happy now with exporting with Lagarith codec and TFF from PP 4.1. PP4.1 cured the TFF-exporting problem from PP 4.0.
I will try again Cineform NeoScene 1.3 (hopefully the new version will allow another trial period) for the intermediate avi since it uses much less space. But its hard to believe it will be "as lossless as Lagarith".

Thanks for any hints again!

Graham Hickling · June 9th, 2009, 07:23 AM

1080i is TFF. Cineform is sufficiently lossless for any normal purposes ...

Markus Klatt · July 4th, 2009, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Hickling

Cineform is sufficiently lossless for any normal purposes ...

In direct comparison it produces slightly darker results and it softens/smoothens the image a little - compared to the original mp4 from EX1 and exported AVIs with Lagarith.
Both image processings will probably not disturb normal footage, especially at daylight. But for my tiny detailed nightshot footage I prefer Lagarith.

Peter Manojlovic · July 4th, 2009, 08:47 PM

Hey Markus....

I've been following your problems off and on...
Only because i'm going down the similair path....

I've found that the only way to get anything properly done, is through AVISynth.

After much surfing and struggling, i've come to the conclusion that the only way to downconvert 1080i to 480i is through Avisynth. The process is slow as molasses, but the outcome is spectacular..

I think the best way to get quality out of your edits, is to work and output natively from the source (or proprietary codec required)..Yes, it requires an export, but unless you've got wads of rendering, it shouldn't be too bad.

Let Avisynth feed the native ouput to your favourite encoder..

I made a crayon drawing, just to better understand proper downconverting at another forum, and my suspicions were confirmed.
If you're interested in my script, give me a shout..
I'm glad things are looking up for you.

Markus Klatt · July 5th, 2009, 06:38 AM

Hello Peter,

thank you very much for your input. My first problem with CS4 was just the exporting from timeline. In the meantime I am really happy with exporting as "Microsoft AVI" with Lagarith lossless codec as RGB. Lagarith even uses the "8" kernels of my i7-920 CPU so speed at exporting time is no problem.

After weeks of trials, errors, reading and asking I finally find the workflow of Dan Isaacs at Adobe forums delivering the very best results. It uses AviSynth too. In the beginning I tried to understand and configure what exactly are the best parameters and commands for AviSynth. But in the end I just use the hd2sd script from Dan with the appropriate settings - and it does wonderful work.
Its that good in deinterlacing and scaling, that I film with 1080/50i even when I need 720/25p or 576/50i only.

But I really would like to try your script too!

Peter Manojlovic · July 5th, 2009, 07:18 PM

My script is fundamentally the same as yours, except for a different deinterlacer (and some other minor tweaks)..
The deinterlacer requires a call up (unlike usual plugins)..Esentially, it's a doublerate, deinterlace, and interpolate necessary areas..

Unfortunately, i'm getting only .15x realtime encoding, due to Yadif() and LanczosResize() i presume. No fault of the encoder, rather the deinterlace/resize from Avisynth..
So my encoding is done overnight (like the old days on my P3)...
What kind of encoding speeds are you getting??

Unfortunately, my Matrox card doesn't give a suitable HD>SD conversion..
I'm glad you're on your way.

Load_Stdcall_plugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\C\yadif.dll")
avisource("D:\Folder\Filename.avi")
converttoyuy2(interlaced=true)
assumetff()
Yadif(Mode=1,Order=1)#if TFF
LanczosResize(720,480)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)#if TFF
Weave()
#info()

June 2nd, 2009, 01:17 PM	#1
Markus Klatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 169	[Windows] Exporting workflow from PP CS4 not using Media Encoder Hi there, I tried asking several times now, eg. here, and this is my last try. I am simply at the end and have no clue: I have native footage from Sony EX1 (mp4 or MXF container with mpeg 2 long GOP codec) which I cut and slightly filter/modify in Premiere Pro CS4.1. Most times I shoot in 1080/50i (yes, I need that format) and need both: FullHD for Blu-ray and PAL-SD for DVDs of the same footage. Most of you will confirm, that simply downscaling with AME gives terrible results. So I use some workflows with VDub and/or AviSynth to deinterlace and downscale and then encode with TMPGEnc Xpress for DVDs. Here is the problem: CS4 does not allow debugmode frameserver anymore so I have to render an intermediate file for further use at above mentioned workflows. But how do I get valid intermediate video files out from CS4? Uncompressed AVI is pure horror, its slow rendering, even on an i7-PC, and giant file size. I would like to export with HuffYuv or Lagarith codec, for example. But everybody says, EX1-footage is, as all HD footage, TopFieldFirst. When exporting "Microsoft AVI" with those codecs one has to choose BottomFieldFirst - all other tries result in black video. I assume only BFF is valid in Microsoft AVI somehow. I would like to use Cineform but converting footage with NeoScene is only possible from HDV/AVCHD-camcorders and when exporting with its codec as Microsoft AVI it has the same BFF-only-problem. And I cannot afford NeoHD which would do my job perfectly with EX1-footage. How the heck do you export FullHD footage (with TopFieldFirst) for further use from PP CS4, please? Any hint is appreciated, even if you write that you have no solution for me or that I am simply on the wrong way. At the moment I am lost, thanks a lot, yours Markus Last edited by Markus Klatt; June 2nd, 2009 at 02:18 PM.

July 4th, 2009, 08:47 PM	#6
Peter Manojlovic Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hamilton Ontario Posts: 769	Hey Markus.... I've been following your problems off and on... Only because i'm going down the similair path.... I've found that the only way to get anything properly done, is through AVISynth. After much surfing and struggling, i've come to the conclusion that the only way to downconvert 1080i to 480i is through Avisynth. The process is slow as molasses, but the outcome is spectacular.. I think the best way to get quality out of your edits, is to work and output natively from the source (or proprietary codec required)..Yes, it requires an export, but unless you've got wads of rendering, it shouldn't be too bad. Let Avisynth feed the native ouput to your favourite encoder.. I made a crayon drawing, just to better understand proper downconverting at another forum, and my suspicions were confirmed. If you're interested in my script, give me a shout.. I'm glad things are looking up for you. Attached Thumbnails

June 3rd, 2009, 08:27 PM	#2
Devin Termini Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mount Pleasant, MI Posts: 177	You could try using the AVID DNxHD intermediate codecs. They're free! Will it maintain field order? Not exactly sure, but it's worth a try.

June 9th, 2009, 07:23 AM	#4
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	1080i is TFF. Cineform is sufficiently lossless for any normal purposes ...

July 5th, 2009, 06:38 AM	#7
Markus Klatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 169	Hello Peter, thank you very much for your input. My first problem with CS4 was just the exporting from timeline. In the meantime I am really happy with exporting as "Microsoft AVI" with Lagarith lossless codec as RGB. Lagarith even uses the "8" kernels of my i7-920 CPU so speed at exporting time is no problem. After weeks of trials, errors, reading and asking I finally find the workflow of Dan Isaacs at Adobe forums delivering the very best results. It uses AviSynth too. In the beginning I tried to understand and configure what exactly are the best parameters and commands for AviSynth. But in the end I just use the hd2sd script from Dan with the appropriate settings - and it does wonderful work. Its that good in deinterlacing and scaling, that I film with 1080/50i even when I need 720/25p or 576/50i only. But I really would like to try your script too!

July 5th, 2009, 07:18 PM	#8
Peter Manojlovic Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hamilton Ontario Posts: 769	My script is fundamentally the same as yours, except for a different deinterlacer (and some other minor tweaks).. The deinterlacer requires a call up (unlike usual plugins)..Esentially, it's a doublerate, deinterlace, and interpolate necessary areas.. Unfortunately, i'm getting only .15x realtime encoding, due to Yadif() and LanczosResize() i presume. No fault of the encoder, rather the deinterlace/resize from Avisynth.. So my encoding is done overnight (like the old days on my P3)... What kind of encoding speeds are you getting?? Unfortunately, my Matrox card doesn't give a suitable HD>SD conversion.. I'm glad you're on your way. Load_Stdcall_plugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\C\yadif.dll") avisource("D:\Folder\Filename.avi") converttoyuy2(interlaced=true) assumetff() Yadif(Mode=1,Order=1)#if TFF LanczosResize(720,480) SeparateFields() SelectEvery(4,0,3)#if TFF Weave() #info()