Restore clipped highlight detail in Premiere Pro CS3 with superwhites

Graham Hickling · May 30th, 2008, 12:40 PM

Wow. That IS weird!

Jyrki Hokkanen · August 15th, 2008, 07:23 AM

Sorry for the late response but I only just ran into this thread. I tested the provided footage and my Premiere CS3 behaved exactly like Daniel Browning described. I opened a fresh project with the basic NTSC HDV settings, and both the Levels and RGB Color Correction filter clips the whites, while Fast Color Correction does not. The scopes show that just adding either of those two bad behaving filters to a piece of footage, results in the whites being clipped, even if the filter settings were not touched. Lowering the white levels does not bring back the details, they stay clipped.

Jyrki Hokkanen · August 18th, 2008, 07:04 AM

I had a more thorough look at the can - here are the worms.

The following filters are good for bringing down the superwhites recorded by the camera: Fast Color corrector, Three-Way Color Corrector, Luma Curve, RGB Curves, ProcAmp.

Combining any of the following to the stack will clip the superwhites even if the above "good" filters have been used to bring them down below 100IRE: Levels, Shadow/Highlight, Color Balance, Color Balance (HLS), Tint, Gamma Correction, and probably most of the rest. Also, RGB Color Corrector and Luma Corrector cannot bring superwhites down and clip the superwhites if used before one of the "good" highlight adjusting filters. RGB Color Correction always clips the chroma.

All of this works when exporting to tape, or exporting to movie. Does not work when using Adobe Media Encoder, unfortunately!

Exporting via Media Encoder always results in the original superwhites being clipped, even if the superwhites were brought down to legal values with the "good" filters. It appears that Media Encoder first clips superwhites and only then applies the filters. MainConsept MPEG Video codec, or its implementation, seems to be buggy.

As a work around, before using Media Encoder, export the parts with corrected superwhites to movie, preferably with a non-lossy codec, and import back to your project.

Note that RGB Parade seems to always show whites as clipped, even if they are not. Use All Scopes or Vect/YC Wave/RGB Parade to check the RGB values. The other scopes work as expected.

Jyrki Hokkanen · August 20th, 2008, 03:17 AM

A minor update to my previous post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyrki Hokkanen

Note that RGB Parade seems to always show whites as clipped, even if they are not.

Selecting the Maximum Bit Depth video rendering option in Project Settings makes the RGB Parade scope show the superwhites properly. Does not fix anything else, though.

The filters understanding superwhites are tagged as "high bit-depth" in the Adobe Premiere Pro Help manual.

Graham Hickling · August 20th, 2008, 05:49 AM

Hey this is great info - appreciate the effort you have put into clarifying this!

Daniel Browning · September 24th, 2008, 12:17 AM

I don't see anything in today's Premiere Pro CS4 announcement that makes me think this issue is fixed. (If it were, I would have expected Adobe to tout it's increased dynamic range handling and highlight recovery options.) But we'll see about it when it comes out.

Daniel Browning · December 4th, 2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

I don't see anything in today's Premiere Pro CS4 announcement that makes me think this issue is fixed. (If it were, I would have expected Adobe to tout it's increased dynamic range handling and highlight recovery options.) But we'll see about it when it comes out.

I tested 4.0.0 and found no improvement. I continue to restore superwhites with RGB curves or FCC.

Jack Kelly · August 9th, 2010, 08:45 AM

An update to an old post.

I'm using PPro CS 4.2.1. I haven't yet found a way carry detail from the superwhites in my DV source material to my rendered output.

I'm monitoring on a PAL CRT video monitor with an analogue external waveform monitor all fed from a Blackmagic Design Decklink Extreme card.

When I play my DV files from my timeline, the superwhites carry through to my video monitor and external 'scope but the superwhites are clearly clipping on the computer monitor's display, and likewise they always clip when I output using Adobe Media Encoder.

As soon as I add ANY filter (including Fast Colour Corrector or RGB curves) the superwhites clip on the external monitor. No amount of tinkering with Fast Colour Corrector or RGB Curves recovers the detail that is in the superwhites in my DV source material.

I may try AVIsynth later today... I have tens of hours of footage so exporting to a lossless codec will take ages to render and will consume a huge amount of disk space.

Daniel Browning · August 9th, 2010, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Kelly

An update to an old post.

Thanks for the update. I wish I had some help for you. I did a quick test of Premiere Pro 5 and found that the superwhites are clipped on the computer monitor, but kept in the encoder (without any effects added). At least it's some improvement, but it's still not as good as Vegas (which displays the superwhites automatically).

Jack Kelly · August 9th, 2010, 10:01 AM

Ah, well, if I can't get a solution to work with CS4 then perhaps this'll be a good excuse to update to CS5! I mostly care about the superwhites making their way into the encoded output; I can just about live with them clipping in the timeline previews

Daniel Browning · January 25th, 2011, 08:35 PM

I just tested the latest patch (5.0.3) to Premiere Pro CS5 and found that it still needlessly tosses all the highlights and shadows in the garbage for editing preview and most export formats. How are other people dealing with this? Do you purposefully buy cameras that always limit themselves to 16-235? Or do you apply effects to each and *every* cilp to reverse the damage Premiere does to all of them? Do you just let the data go to pot and figure that you didn't really need that much dynamic range any way?

I find it incredible that when faced with the crippling limitations that 8-bit video imposes on us, Adobe found a way to make it even worse by throwing away some of what little data we have. Where is the outrage?

Graham Hickling · January 25th, 2011, 09:08 PM

> Where is the outrage?

Part of my outrage became redirected to Premiere's inability to properly decode AVCHD footage: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/adobe-cr...hroma-bug.html

Daniel Browning · January 25th, 2011, 11:26 PM

Ewww... that is bad. Looks even worse than just a bad job of decoding 4:2:0.

August 18th, 2008, 07:04 AM	#18
Jyrki Hokkanen Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 35	Adobe Media Encoder forces clipping I had a more thorough look at the can - here are the worms. The following filters are good for bringing down the superwhites recorded by the camera: Fast Color corrector, Three-Way Color Corrector, Luma Curve, RGB Curves, ProcAmp. Combining any of the following to the stack will clip the superwhites even if the above "good" filters have been used to bring them down below 100IRE: Levels, Shadow/Highlight, Color Balance, Color Balance (HLS), Tint, Gamma Correction, and probably most of the rest. Also, RGB Color Corrector and Luma Corrector cannot bring superwhites down and clip the superwhites if used before one of the "good" highlight adjusting filters. RGB Color Correction always clips the chroma. All of this works when exporting to tape, or exporting to movie. Does not work when using Adobe Media Encoder, unfortunately! Exporting via Media Encoder always results in the original superwhites being clipped, even if the superwhites were brought down to legal values with the "good" filters. It appears that Media Encoder first clips superwhites and only then applies the filters. MainConsept MPEG Video codec, or its implementation, seems to be buggy. As a work around, before using Media Encoder, export the parts with corrected superwhites to movie, preferably with a non-lossy codec, and import back to your project. Note that RGB Parade seems to always show whites as clipped, even if they are not. Use All Scopes or Vect/YC Wave/RGB Parade to check the RGB values. The other scopes work as expected.

September 24th, 2008, 12:17 AM	#21
Daniel Browning Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 949	Superwhite handling in CS4 I don't see anything in today's Premiere Pro CS4 announcement that makes me think this issue is fixed. (If it were, I would have expected Adobe to tout it's increased dynamic range handling and highlight recovery options.) But we'll see about it when it comes out.

August 9th, 2010, 08:45 AM	#23
Jack Kelly Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 243	An update to an old post. I'm using PPro CS 4.2.1. I haven't yet found a way carry detail from the superwhites in my DV source material to my rendered output. I'm monitoring on a PAL CRT video monitor with an analogue external waveform monitor all fed from a Blackmagic Design Decklink Extreme card. When I play my DV files from my timeline, the superwhites carry through to my video monitor and external 'scope but the superwhites are clearly clipping on the computer monitor's display, and likewise they always clip when I output using Adobe Media Encoder. As soon as I add ANY filter (including Fast Colour Corrector or RGB curves) the superwhites clip on the external monitor. No amount of tinkering with Fast Colour Corrector or RGB Curves recovers the detail that is in the superwhites in my DV source material. I may try AVIsynth later today... I have tens of hours of footage so exporting to a lossless codec will take ages to render and will consume a huge amount of disk space. __________________ Jack Kelly's filmmaking website AfterCarbon.org

August 9th, 2010, 10:01 AM	#25
Jack Kelly Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 243	Ah, well, if I can't get a solution to work with CS4 then perhaps this'll be a good excuse to update to CS5! I mostly care about the superwhites making their way into the encoded output; I can just about live with them clipping in the timeline previews __________________ Jack Kelly's filmmaking website AfterCarbon.org

May 30th, 2008, 12:40 PM	#16
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Wow. That IS weird!

August 15th, 2008, 07:23 AM	#17
Jyrki Hokkanen Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 35	Sorry for the late response but I only just ran into this thread. I tested the provided footage and my Premiere CS3 behaved exactly like Daniel Browning described. I opened a fresh project with the basic NTSC HDV settings, and both the Levels and RGB Color Correction filter clips the whites, while Fast Color Correction does not. The scopes show that just adding either of those two bad behaving filters to a piece of footage, results in the whites being clipped, even if the filter settings were not touched. Lowering the white levels does not bring back the details, they stay clipped.

August 20th, 2008, 05:49 AM	#20
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Hey this is great info - appreciate the effort you have put into clarifying this!

January 25th, 2011, 08:35 PM	#26
Daniel Browning Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 949	I just tested the latest patch (5.0.3) to Premiere Pro CS5 and found that it still needlessly tosses all the highlights and shadows in the garbage for editing preview and most export formats. How are other people dealing with this? Do you purposefully buy cameras that always limit themselves to 16-235? Or do you apply effects to each and every cilp to reverse the damage Premiere does to all of them? Do you just let the data go to pot and figure that you didn't really need that much dynamic range any way? I find it incredible that when faced with the crippling limitations that 8-bit video imposes on us, Adobe found a way to make it even worse by throwing away some of what little data we have. Where is the outrage?

January 25th, 2011, 09:08 PM	#27
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	> Where is the outrage? Part of my outrage became redirected to Premiere's inability to properly decode AVCHD footage: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/adobe-cr...hroma-bug.html

January 25th, 2011, 11:26 PM	#28
Daniel Browning Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 949	Ewww... that is bad. Looks even worse than just a bad job of decoding 4:2:0.