JVC Pro HD and Adobe Premiere Pro

Gabriele Sartori · February 3rd, 2006, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Bachelder

The other cool thing about the Propect/Xena thing is you can capture the 8 bit 4:2:2 feed right out of the JVC's component out direct to disk and convert to 10 bit on the fly - bypassing the HDV format! This the method we plan on our next feature. You can also capture the 60p feed out of the JVC as 60fps via Xena for true slow-mo!

Lance

Beside that going from digital to analog to digital again scares me, how can you have 4:2:2 ? May be the format is 4:2:2 but it is artificial in my opinion. Once the tape has been recorded in 4:2:0 information is lost and you may playback and capture in 4:2:2 but I don't see how you can re-create that information.

Regards
Gabriele

Tip McPartland · February 3rd, 2006, 02:21 AM

Gabriele,

I know that this sounds suspiciously like hocus pocus, but it's actually a really cool capability.

Let me take a shot at saving Lance the time to reply to this very good question. The short answer is that going from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 is just line-doubling of the chroma data.

First, let me describe what 4:2:0 is. Basically, odd and even lines have the same chroma information. But like 4:2:2 both have half the horizontal resolution of the luma. So in the vertical axis, chroma gradients change half as often as luma gradients.

So if the chroma channels, but not the luma, are line doubled which is a very mature form of interpolation and pretty much perfected, color gradients will have the proper intermediate steps on the lines that had duplicate chroma data. It would also double the number of "stairsteps" on diagonals with large chroma differences.

I'm sure there's a bit of fancy footwork required if there is a sharp jump in chroma data that really falls between the doubled lines but is scrambled by the initial 4:2:0 encoding. But most fine detail is carried in the luma channel, and furthermore this problem would require a nearly perfect horizontal color line, so this is probably not a big issue.

From everything I've read on various forums, this evidently works quite well, which is not surprising as the technology of line doubling is very mature.

Tip

Lance Bachelder · February 3rd, 2006, 01:16 PM

Gabriele,

The component outputs on the JVC bypass any HDV encoding and is a true 720p 4:2:2 8 bit feed - this is different from capturing to tape and converting to 4:2:2 intermediate format.

The new Canon has HD-SDI out which is also 8 bit 4:2:2 at 1080i - bypassing HDV format completely. You are really using these cameras as imaging devices and capturing the true HD .avi's to a hard drive - ready to edit. It works, I've seen it and cut, color timed the files!

A recent test I attended in Hollywood revealed that these live captured Cineform files keyed better than f900 HDCAM files that were recorded to tape! At one tenth the price!

Lance

Jason Hamby · February 8th, 2006, 05:12 PM

I'm in a similar situation preparing for a studio shoot, and I can't decipher the Aja Xena cards.

HS - SDI in/out, PP2 Native support. Full Cineform support. No Component or breakout box available.

LH(e) - SDI and Component in/out, plus optional breakout box. Cineform support in progress. But this card is for After Effects, not Premiere.

So if I get ProspectHD AND the LH, once Cineform is updated, what kind of performance will I get with Premiere? I want to use Premiere 2.0 and After Effects with Prospect HD. I have no need for SDI, but I do need a component in/out for capture and TV playback.

Decklink makes more sense to me. I just can't afford the required hard drive for uncompressed HD (720p), and there will be some need for uncompressed SD.

Mark Schultz · February 20th, 2006, 02:24 PM

I just got Aspect HD 4.0 with PPro2.0, shooting 24P and have been unable to capture within PPro--getting mondo dropouts. Using HDLink, it doesn't work either--dropouts again.... unless I capture in .m2t, then manually convert to .avi with HDLink.

I think maybe my CPU/hard drive is too slow to convert and store on the fly, although I'm using a SATA drive. It is a 2.8ghz P4 with 2GB PC3200 ram. My config about matches the minimum recommended system.

I don't see any way to improve this situation short of getting a faster computer. (I've tried disabling all the memory resident software na running only HDLink). Love the camera though! Anybody know anything tricky I might try to get a straight capture to avi?

By the way, I have captured some test green screen video and plopped it into Ultra 2, and WOW. Ultra 2 likes HDV. I had to make no adjustments to get an almost perfect chroma key. I am astounded.

David Kidd · April 5th, 2006, 08:41 AM

Any 2.o users having problems with capturing HDV using the br-50 deck?
Every time I open the capture window i get Capture device offline. It does DV fine...but not HDV. So much for "native" HDV editing.

John Vincent · April 5th, 2006, 04:08 PM

I am considering buying PP2 to edit with - are you having the same problems while digitizing with the camera itself (if you have tried)?

I'm quite interested....

John

evilgeniusentertainment.com

Carl Hicks · April 5th, 2006, 04:59 PM

Hi David,

Have you contacted your reseller for support? An authorized reseller should be able to get help for you through JVC Pro's Sales Engineers and Customer Care Center.

Also: Have you contacted Adobe for support?

Regards, Carl

David Kidd · April 5th, 2006, 07:21 PM

Well let me try to go into more detail without boring anyone too much.
I have a dual 3.2 dell with all the bells and whistles. I bought Premiere 2.0 and the jvc hd-100U and br-50 deck package from B&H. I can capture dv fine but when I open a HDV project and go to capture it says capure device offline.

I tried hooking up the camera and I got the same message. I did notice that when I tried to select the device control and looked for the JVC deck it was not an option. But chosing the "alternate 1 " choice would control the deck in dv mode. Adobe was not sure why that choice was unavailable...they said it was a JVC issue and they did not have any updates for new decks. Maybe you could help me with that one Carl. Anyway PP2 works great with standard DV but its Native HDV has some issues.

By the way I loaded the Cineform HD program and it does not reckognize the
capure device as well.

Thanks in advance for any help you all can give me

Tip McPartland · April 5th, 2006, 07:39 PM

Although as you know it' s not the only way to work with HDV in Premiere, Aspect still seems to me to be the best. I use the BR-HD50 with Aspect and it gives me good deck control and good capture. I haven't really tried the "native" HDV (non-Aspect) option but from what I've heard, Aspect is still the ticket.

One thing I learned, don't bother with the Addenda-type serial cable. It gives me control over the deck, except capture doesn't work.

Tip

Carl Hicks · April 5th, 2006, 07:40 PM

Hi David,

I do not know much about capture or editing with Premier. My background is more in Avid land.

Anyone out there a Premier Pro expert?

How about B&H's support?

David, one question I would have for you is do you have an "A" version GY-HD100U camera? If not, then you should get your camera upgraded, which is a free service that JVC is offering thru July 31st. Some of the improvements involve better control interface with various NLE's. If you do need to upgrade your camera, ask our service dept to check out the firewire connection to make sure it's good in the HDV mode.

Here's the link to the upgrade website. This gives you the all of the info needed to get the upgrade.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/special/HD100...00upgrade.html

Regards, Carl

David Kidd · April 5th, 2006, 07:58 PM

Thanks Carl...I do have the A version...I have not tried to capture since I got it back. I will do it tonight and report.

I just tried it and still a no go.

Steve Mullen · April 5th, 2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Kidd

Thanks Carl...I do have the A version...I have not tried to capture since I got it back. I will do it tonight and report.

Your problem feels like Window's HDV FireWire drive may not be loaded or working. Try looking at the CineForm help site where they discuss how to check and fix this.

Daniel Patton · April 5th, 2006, 09:26 PM

David,

My email is in my profile, contact me and I will give you my phone number directly. I'm using the same JVC camera/deck with PPro 2 in a working production workflow without a hitch. It works very well for the most part. By phone we can walk you through a checklist of items to be sure you are setup correctly. We can cover more ground in less time this way. Then maybe you can come back and share your findings here in case others run into the same issue.

And Tip is dead on regarding Aspect HD, I know it's another chunky little investment but it's worth every penny considering your (our) hardware/workflow. We realized this fact early on after purchasing our camera and pushing through our first project.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Diogo Athouguia · April 5th, 2006, 09:27 PM

I have no problems capturing HDV with Premiere Pro 2.0 and I'm not using any plug-in. I just connect the camera to the fire-wire and windows recognize it as a DV device. It's funny that it used to reconize the camera as a JVC device... not anymore since I upgraded my hardware and reinstaled windows. Do you have all your drivers and windows updated?

February 3rd, 2006, 02:21 AM	#47
Tip McPartland Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Crestline, California Posts: 351	4:2:0 to 4:2:2 Gabriele, I know that this sounds suspiciously like hocus pocus, but it's actually a really cool capability. Let me take a shot at saving Lance the time to reply to this very good question. The short answer is that going from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 is just line-doubling of the chroma data. First, let me describe what 4:2:0 is. Basically, odd and even lines have the same chroma information. But like 4:2:2 both have half the horizontal resolution of the luma. So in the vertical axis, chroma gradients change half as often as luma gradients. So if the chroma channels, but not the luma, are line doubled which is a very mature form of interpolation and pretty much perfected, color gradients will have the proper intermediate steps on the lines that had duplicate chroma data. It would also double the number of "stairsteps" on diagonals with large chroma differences. I'm sure there's a bit of fancy footwork required if there is a sharp jump in chroma data that really falls between the doubled lines but is scrambled by the initial 4:2:0 encoding. But most fine detail is carried in the luma channel, and furthermore this problem would require a nearly perfect horizontal color line, so this is probably not a big issue. From everything I've read on various forums, this evidently works quite well, which is not surprising as the technology of line doubling is very mature. Tip

February 3rd, 2006, 01:16 PM	#48
Lance Bachelder New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 17	4:2:2 Gabriele, The component outputs on the JVC bypass any HDV encoding and is a true 720p 4:2:2 8 bit feed - this is different from capturing to tape and converting to 4:2:2 intermediate format. The new Canon has HD-SDI out which is also 8 bit 4:2:2 at 1080i - bypassing HDV format completely. You are really using these cameras as imaging devices and capturing the true HD .avi's to a hard drive - ready to edit. It works, I've seen it and cut, color timed the files! A recent test I attended in Hollywood revealed that these live captured Cineform files keyed better than f900 HDCAM files that were recorded to tape! At one tenth the price! Lance

February 8th, 2006, 05:12 PM	#49
Jason Hamby Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 26	But which Aja Xena model I'm in a similar situation preparing for a studio shoot, and I can't decipher the Aja Xena cards. HS - SDI in/out, PP2 Native support. Full Cineform support. No Component or breakout box available. LH(e) - SDI and Component in/out, plus optional breakout box. Cineform support in progress. But this card is for After Effects, not Premiere. So if I get ProspectHD AND the LH, once Cineform is updated, what kind of performance will I get with Premiere? I want to use Premiere 2.0 and After Effects with Prospect HD. I have no need for SDI, but I do need a component in/out for capture and TV playback. Decklink makes more sense to me. I just can't afford the required hard drive for uncompressed HD (720p), and there will be some need for uncompressed SD.

February 20th, 2006, 02:24 PM	#50
Mark Schultz Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1	PPro 2.0 + Aspect 4.0 Capture Issues I just got Aspect HD 4.0 with PPro2.0, shooting 24P and have been unable to capture within PPro--getting mondo dropouts. Using HDLink, it doesn't work either--dropouts again.... unless I capture in .m2t, then manually convert to .avi with HDLink. I think maybe my CPU/hard drive is too slow to convert and store on the fly, although I'm using a SATA drive. It is a 2.8ghz P4 with 2GB PC3200 ram. My config about matches the minimum recommended system. I don't see any way to improve this situation short of getting a faster computer. (I've tried disabling all the memory resident software na running only HDLink). Love the camera though! Anybody know anything tricky I might try to get a straight capture to avi? By the way, I have captured some test green screen video and plopped it into Ultra 2, and WOW. Ultra 2 likes HDV. I had to make no adjustments to get an almost perfect chroma key. I am astounded.

April 5th, 2006, 08:41 AM	#51
David Kidd New Boot Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23	Premiere pro 2.0 HDV caputre problems Any 2.o users having problems with capturing HDV using the br-50 deck? Every time I open the capture window i get Capture device offline. It does DV fine...but not HDV. So much for "native" HDV editing.

April 5th, 2006, 04:08 PM	#52
John Vincent Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,065	I am considering buying PP2 to edit with - are you having the same problems while digitizing with the camera itself (if you have tried)? I'm quite interested.... John evilgeniusentertainment.com

April 5th, 2006, 04:59 PM	#53
Carl Hicks JVC America Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 516	Adobe Premier Support Hi David, Have you contacted your reseller for support? An authorized reseller should be able to get help for you through JVC Pro's Sales Engineers and Customer Care Center. Also: Have you contacted Adobe for support? Regards, Carl

April 5th, 2006, 07:21 PM	#54
David Kidd New Boot Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23	Well let me try to go into more detail without boring anyone too much. I have a dual 3.2 dell with all the bells and whistles. I bought Premiere 2.0 and the jvc hd-100U and br-50 deck package from B&H. I can capture dv fine but when I open a HDV project and go to capture it says capure device offline. I tried hooking up the camera and I got the same message. I did notice that when I tried to select the device control and looked for the JVC deck it was not an option. But chosing the "alternate 1 " choice would control the deck in dv mode. Adobe was not sure why that choice was unavailable...they said it was a JVC issue and they did not have any updates for new decks. Maybe you could help me with that one Carl. Anyway PP2 works great with standard DV but its Native HDV has some issues. By the way I loaded the Cineform HD program and it does not reckognize the capure device as well. Thanks in advance for any help you all can give me

April 5th, 2006, 07:39 PM	#55
Tip McPartland Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Crestline, California Posts: 351	Get Aspect HD Although as you know it' s not the only way to work with HDV in Premiere, Aspect still seems to me to be the best. I use the BR-HD50 with Aspect and it gives me good deck control and good capture. I haven't really tried the "native" HDV (non-Aspect) option but from what I've heard, Aspect is still the ticket. One thing I learned, don't bother with the Addenda-type serial cable. It gives me control over the deck, except capture doesn't work. Tip

April 5th, 2006, 07:40 PM	#56
Carl Hicks JVC America Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 516	Adobe Premier Support Hi David, I do not know much about capture or editing with Premier. My background is more in Avid land. Anyone out there a Premier Pro expert? How about B&H's support? David, one question I would have for you is do you have an "A" version GY-HD100U camera? If not, then you should get your camera upgraded, which is a free service that JVC is offering thru July 31st. Some of the improvements involve better control interface with various NLE's. If you do need to upgrade your camera, ask our service dept to check out the firewire connection to make sure it's good in the HDV mode. Here's the link to the upgrade website. This gives you the all of the info needed to get the upgrade. http://pro.jvc.com/pro/special/HD100...00upgrade.html Regards, Carl

April 5th, 2006, 07:58 PM	#57
David Kidd New Boot Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23	Thanks Carl...I do have the A version...I have not tried to capture since I got it back. I will do it tonight and report. I just tried it and still a no go. Last edited by David Kidd; April 5th, 2006 at 08:55 PM.

April 5th, 2006, 09:26 PM	#59
Daniel Patton Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Knoxville TN Posts: 589	David, My email is in my profile, contact me and I will give you my phone number directly. I'm using the same JVC camera/deck with PPro 2 in a working production workflow without a hitch. It works very well for the most part. By phone we can walk you through a checklist of items to be sure you are setup correctly. We can cover more ground in less time this way. Then maybe you can come back and share your findings here in case others run into the same issue. And Tip is dead on regarding Aspect HD, I know it's another chunky little investment but it's worth every penny considering your (our) hardware/workflow. We realized this fact early on after purchasing our camera and pushing through our first project. Look forward to hearing from you. __________________ Our eyes allow us to see the world - The lens allows others to see the world through our eyes. RED ONE #977

April 5th, 2006, 09:27 PM	#60
Diogo Athouguia Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Portugal Posts: 282	I have no problems capturing HDV with Premiere Pro 2.0 and I'm not using any plug-in. I just connect the camera to the fire-wire and windows recognize it as a DV device. It's funny that it used to reconize the camera as a JVC device... not anymore since I upgraded my hardware and reinstaled windows. Do you have all your drivers and windows updated?