3D 3K 12-bit RAW camera project at DVinfo.net

Anmol Mishra · January 19th, 2017, 12:13 AM

I worked on this a couple of years ago and am posting here so others can benefit..

Why?

I have decided to shoot my next film in 3D. For this purpose, I can use a Panasonic Z10000 camera with 1080p @ 25P and 24P. The 4:2:2 lossless signal can be recorded with a BM Ultrastudio to dual Prores streams. However, 3D presents some challenges in post production. Upsizing 3D is a no-no as this may causes various violations in the 2 streams. Also, any jerkiness in 3D makes the viewer feel dizzy - a sensation similar to sea-sickness. The alternative is to shoot in a higher res and use a zoom and pan-scan in post to simulate movement. The HIT can be adjusted in post to add to the simulation of movement. Stereoscopic 3D Cinematography; Zooming in 3D. | RealVision VR
How?

In another project, an inexpensive USB3 Flea3 FL3-U3-88S2C-C camera by Point Grey was used as a 4K RAW camera project.

A statement was made that using binning, 2K @ 60 fps RAW footage displayed minimal rolling shutter. This post indicated that 200 MBps is the limit that the Flea3 cameras have for bandwidth.

This camera can output 12-bit RAW at 24,25 fps at slightly above 3K. This allows for a resolution budget to allow for stabilizing and post zoom and pan,scan actions. Thus, I can keep my camera steady on a tripod while filming and worry about dolly moves in post. This allows for 3K in 12-bit RAW or a low rolling shutter 2K at 12-bit RAW.
More Details?

The lenses used in actual production will be fixed focal length as POV is hard to fix. I will attempt to connect an embedded i7 PC with 3x SSDs - 1 for the OS and 2 for recording each stream using uncompressed RAW. The gfx card does not make a difference - the key point is the CPU. A single recorder is preferred.

Some software options - COTS - Streampix with optional Cineform RAW - 1000/- + optional CF RAW license Norpix recorder Smallpix 2 with 2x SSDs - 2500/- + SSDs

My first attempt is to replicate what Soeren did in his thread and just use the supplied FlyCapture app.

Cesar Rubio has attempted this before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:H.Cesar_Rubio
DR-3D Home
Museum
http://dna-rubio-s3d.net/index.php

However, this last approach was done lugging around a bulky PC. I wanted mine to be battery operated and portable.

The USB3 cameras can be used for anaglyph preview using Stereoscopic Player. The embedded PC can be controlled remotely using VNC or Remote Desktop.

Options for data rate with uncompressed RAW -

2048 x 1080 x 12bit, 60fps (199MB/s, binning, full sensor)
3120 x 1754 x 12bit, 25fps (205MB/s, windowed)
3200 x 1800 x 12bit, 24fps (207MB/s, windowed)
3584 x 2016 x 8bit, 25fps (181MB/s, windowed)
3728 x 2096 x 8bit, 24fps (188MB/s, windowed but only very slightly of course)

Little raw cam side project... - Page 10

The camera has good detail and can look cinematic with the right grading. Little raw cam side project... - Page 6

Anmol Mishra · January 19th, 2017, 12:15 AM

Set of prime lenses. The crop factor on 1/2-inch lenses is about 6x. The sensor is 1/2.5" and we can realistically expect to capture only 3K - the final sensor size is slightly larger 1/3-inch after cropping. So, the crop will be about 7x.

A 6mm lens will provide a normal POV on the 3K image and 8mm on the binned image from the total sensor.

The Budget option is

Ricoh C-Mount 6mm M Series 2 Mp Lens with Locking Screws 145$

Spacecom JHF8M-MP VELA Series 2/3" Low Distortion 3 Megapixel Lens (8mm) 100$

And for tele, a single 16mm is enough. I may buy 12mm as well since the lenses are quite cheap.

Spacecom JHF16M-MP VELA Series 2/3" Low Distortion 3 Megapixel Lens (16mm) 100$

Spacecom JHF12M-MP VELA Series 2/3" Low Distortion 3 Megapixel Lens (12mm) 100$

All the Spacecom lenses are also usable with the BMPCC camera, which I have. The lenses, as with all lenses will have better lph ratings near the center.

The Spacecom lenses have filter threads of 37.5 and the Ricoh at 35.5 I can realistically use the 2x cameras at a min. IA of ~ 40mm

This is excellent for indoor filming.

The Deluxe option - Kowa - Kowa lens | Kowa factory automation and machine vision lenses

Kowa LM6NCM - 1/2" 120lph at the centre 100lph on the periphery uncalibrated - 189$ new

Kowa LM12JCM - in 2/3-inch but 120lph at center. 195/- new with uncalibrated Iris and Focus

Kowa LM6NC3 - same specs for 3-CCD Calibrated

Kowa LM12NC3 - same in 12mm for 3-CCD and calibrated - 375$ new

Spacecom also offers 5MP lenses but they have 49mm filter thread. So the min IA is affected, the Kowa lenses have 37.5mm width.

Anmol Mishra · January 19th, 2017, 12:18 AM

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...%20Project.zip

I have uploaded the entire project in case someone wants to play with it. Sorry about the delay.

For 3d, I decided to build a separate version without the polling used by PGR. This version is very fast and ensures that there are no dropped frames. On the flipside, it cannot display while recording. Use this, if you want to record from multiple cameras, or for high frame rates, where the other version gives dropped frames.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...yCap2-sync.exe

And for reference - the original thread was here...

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/d...era-project/p1

This is the original version with a bugfix. It can only record from a single camera, and uses a polling method to record and display at the same time.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...yCap2-poll.exe

Both versions still display an underexposed image. I suspect this is due to a gamma mismatch. Default QT gamma is 2.2 while Flycap2 converts to RGB using gamma of 1.

Adam Stanislav · January 20th, 2017, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anmol Mishra

The 4:2:2 lossless signal

Sorry, but only 4:4:4 can be lossless. 4:2:2 throws out half of the chroma information. Even if that is alleged to happen “with little to no visual difference” (at least according to wikipedia), that is a loss of one third of the available information and is, therefore, not lossless.

Anmol Mishra · January 22nd, 2017, 11:59 PM

I don't understand the context. Raw is raw. Its the raw sensor data with no loss information. This rig and software capture 12 bit 3k raw and can capture almost 4k in 8 bit

Adam Stanislav · January 23rd, 2017, 07:52 PM

4:2:2 is not raw. See this link explaining what 4:2:2 is.

Anmol Mishra · January 24th, 2017, 05:39 AM

Adam. The panasonic z10000 output a debayered 422 signal. I simply stated I use the panny for pro uses and posted this thread about dual flea3 raw cameras.
That's what the first post is about.
Panny = 4:2:2 HDMI
Flea3 = Windowed 12 bit 3k raw

Adam Stanislav · January 24th, 2017, 10:35 AM

And I simply said 4:2:2 was not lossless.

January 19th, 2017, 12:13 AM	#1
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	3D 3K 12-bit RAW camera project I worked on this a couple of years ago and am posting here so others can benefit.. Why? I have decided to shoot my next film in 3D. For this purpose, I can use a Panasonic Z10000 camera with 1080p @ 25P and 24P. The 4:2:2 lossless signal can be recorded with a BM Ultrastudio to dual Prores streams. However, 3D presents some challenges in post production. Upsizing 3D is a no-no as this may causes various violations in the 2 streams. Also, any jerkiness in 3D makes the viewer feel dizzy - a sensation similar to sea-sickness. The alternative is to shoot in a higher res and use a zoom and pan-scan in post to simulate movement. The HIT can be adjusted in post to add to the simulation of movement. Stereoscopic 3D Cinematography; Zooming in 3D. \| RealVision VR How? In another project, an inexpensive USB3 Flea3 FL3-U3-88S2C-C camera by Point Grey was used as a 4K RAW camera project. A statement was made that using binning, 2K @ 60 fps RAW footage displayed minimal rolling shutter. This post indicated that 200 MBps is the limit that the Flea3 cameras have for bandwidth. This camera can output 12-bit RAW at 24,25 fps at slightly above 3K. This allows for a resolution budget to allow for stabilizing and post zoom and pan,scan actions. Thus, I can keep my camera steady on a tripod while filming and worry about dolly moves in post. This allows for 3K in 12-bit RAW or a low rolling shutter 2K at 12-bit RAW. More Details? The lenses used in actual production will be fixed focal length as POV is hard to fix. I will attempt to connect an embedded i7 PC with 3x SSDs - 1 for the OS and 2 for recording each stream using uncompressed RAW. The gfx card does not make a difference - the key point is the CPU. A single recorder is preferred. Some software options - COTS - Streampix with optional Cineform RAW - 1000/- + optional CF RAW license Norpix recorder Smallpix 2 with 2x SSDs - 2500/- + SSDs My first attempt is to replicate what Soeren did in his thread and just use the supplied FlyCapture app. Cesar Rubio has attempted this before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:H.Cesar_Rubio DR-3D Home Museum http://dna-rubio-s3d.net/index.php However, this last approach was done lugging around a bulky PC. I wanted mine to be battery operated and portable. The USB3 cameras can be used for anaglyph preview using Stereoscopic Player. The embedded PC can be controlled remotely using VNC or Remote Desktop. Options for data rate with uncompressed RAW - 2048 x 1080 x 12bit, 60fps (199MB/s, binning, full sensor) 3120 x 1754 x 12bit, 25fps (205MB/s, windowed) 3200 x 1800 x 12bit, 24fps (207MB/s, windowed) 3584 x 2016 x 8bit, 25fps (181MB/s, windowed) 3728 x 2096 x 8bit, 24fps (188MB/s, windowed but only very slightly of course) Little raw cam side project... - Page 10 The camera has good detail and can look cinematic with the right grading. Little raw cam side project... - Page 6 __________________ mishra.tv Productions A Sydney-based group for dance movement-based video and film productions.

January 19th, 2017, 12:15 AM	#2
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	Re: 3D 3K 12-bit RAW camera project Set of prime lenses. The crop factor on 1/2-inch lenses is about 6x. The sensor is 1/2.5" and we can realistically expect to capture only 3K - the final sensor size is slightly larger 1/3-inch after cropping. So, the crop will be about 7x. A 6mm lens will provide a normal POV on the 3K image and 8mm on the binned image from the total sensor. The Budget option is Ricoh C-Mount 6mm M Series 2 Mp Lens with Locking Screws 145$ Spacecom JHF8M-MP VELA Series 2/3" Low Distortion 3 Megapixel Lens (8mm) 100$ And for tele, a single 16mm is enough. I may buy 12mm as well since the lenses are quite cheap. Spacecom JHF16M-MP VELA Series 2/3" Low Distortion 3 Megapixel Lens (16mm) 100$ Spacecom JHF12M-MP VELA Series 2/3" Low Distortion 3 Megapixel Lens (12mm) 100$ All the Spacecom lenses are also usable with the BMPCC camera, which I have. The lenses, as with all lenses will have better lph ratings near the center. The Spacecom lenses have filter threads of 37.5 and the Ricoh at 35.5 I can realistically use the 2x cameras at a min. IA of ~ 40mm This is excellent for indoor filming. The Deluxe option - Kowa - Kowa lens \| Kowa factory automation and machine vision lenses Kowa LM6NCM - 1/2" 120lph at the centre 100lph on the periphery uncalibrated - 189$ new Kowa LM12JCM - in 2/3-inch but 120lph at center. 195/- new with uncalibrated Iris and Focus Kowa LM6NC3 - same specs for 3-CCD Calibrated Kowa LM12NC3 - same in 12mm for 3-CCD and calibrated - 375$ new Spacecom also offers 5MP lenses but they have 49mm filter thread. So the min IA is affected, the Kowa lenses have 37.5mm width. __________________ mishra.tv Productions A Sydney-based group for dance movement-based video and film productions.

January 19th, 2017, 12:18 AM	#3
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	Re: 3D 3K 12-bit RAW camera project https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...%20Project.zip I have uploaded the entire project in case someone wants to play with it. Sorry about the delay. For 3d, I decided to build a separate version without the polling used by PGR. This version is very fast and ensures that there are no dropped frames. On the flipside, it cannot display while recording. Use this, if you want to record from multiple cameras, or for high frame rates, where the other version gives dropped frames. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...yCap2-sync.exe And for reference - the original thread was here... http://www.personal-view.com/talks/d...era-project/p1 This is the original version with a bugfix. It can only record from a single camera, and uses a polling method to record and display at the same time. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...yCap2-poll.exe Both versions still display an underexposed image. I suspect this is due to a gamma mismatch. Default QT gamma is 2.2 while Flycap2 converts to RGB using gamma of 1. __________________ mishra.tv Productions A Sydney-based group for dance movement-based video and film productions.

January 22nd, 2017, 11:59 PM	#5
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	Re: 3D 3K 12-bit RAW camera project I don't understand the context. Raw is raw. Its the raw sensor data with no loss information. This rig and software capture 12 bit 3k raw and can capture almost 4k in 8 bit __________________ mishra.tv Productions A Sydney-based group for dance movement-based video and film productions.

January 23rd, 2017, 07:52 PM	#6
Adam Stanislav Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Rhinelander, WI Posts: 1,258	Re: 3D 3K 12-bit RAW camera project 4:2:2 is not raw. See this link explaining what 4:2:2 is.

January 24th, 2017, 05:39 AM	#7
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	Re: 3D 3K 12-bit RAW camera project Adam. The panasonic z10000 output a debayered 422 signal. I simply stated I use the panny for pro uses and posted this thread about dual flea3 raw cameras. That's what the first post is about. Panny = 4:2:2 HDMI Flea3 = Windowed 12 bit 3k raw __________________ mishra.tv Productions A Sydney-based group for dance movement-based video and film productions.

January 24th, 2017, 10:35 AM	#8
Adam Stanislav Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Rhinelander, WI Posts: 1,258	Re: 3D 3K 12-bit RAW camera project And I simply said 4:2:2 was not lossless.