Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

[Taj Jackson]

Originally Posted by Bruce Schultz

Cineform tech support tells me that the next update of Neo 3D will include native MVC processing for files from JVC, Panasonic and Sony.

Sounds great. Thanks for the heads up. Did they give you an ETA on the Neo3D update?

[Bruce Schultz]

The usual: ADN

(any day now)

[Matt Faw]

Originally Posted by Bruce Schultz

Matt, my experience with TD10/NX3D1 files mirrors yours, however, I found Sony Vegas to be a pale comparison to FCP / Cineform Neo3D workflow so I have only been using it to separate the L/R images and converting/muxing them with Cineform MOV to use in FCP. I can see why some would opt to stay in Vegas and edit 3D natively, however I had serious playback issues with M2TS files in Vegas and not in FCP, so I didn't bother learning a new timeline routine. Also the 3D adjustments palate was rudimentary at best with very few options for fine tuning or ghost busting etc.

Vegas does a great job of creating full resolution L/R images from the MVC files and that is good enough for me.

Another note, I stated in an earlier post on this thread that the Sony CMU & PMB programs would work without the camera being directly hooked up to the computer, but this appears to not be the case. I have found though, that if your MVC files are still on an SD card in the camera that it is a much easier process to render full L/R frames out from those programs directly from the camera as they can be queued in a batch for processing saving mucho time. Unfortunately this isn't always the case as data gets transferred and then SD cards get re-used, so I'm working out the possibility of re-recording the MVC / M2TS files back to SD cards to insert in the camera for processing. This is ass-backwards of course but for some reason Sony has not made it possible to utilize the separation of clips from existing files on a hard drive - go figure. The fact that the Sony MVC files Right image is not a full resolution but rather a Delta file embodying only the differences between it and the full resolution Left image makes using the Sony software all the more important for image fidelity.

Cineform tech support tells me that the next update of Neo 3D will include native MVC processing for files from JVC, Panasonic and Sony.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Bruce. I have not yet had the chance to work with the Cineform Neo on FCP, since I only have the GoPro software. My experience with Vegas, too, has been stuttery playback, at best (even sometimes of 2D!), as compared to Stereoscopic Viewer, which plays back the same files, fine, on the same system. I have been hoping that this was mostly a matter of a slow PC, and that adequate CPU/GPU/RAM would bring Vegas up to snuff, but that' s just theory, so far. I've been cutting professionally on FCP for a decade now, so I'd sure prefer to keep cutting there (I wonder how FCP X fares with .m2ts files?).

As for Vegas' convergence controls, I'm still pretty unsure about them. I first tried to clean up the ghosting using the "horizontal offset" slider, and then whoops, realized I was killing my depth. So far, I've had the best success using the "Auto Correct" function in the "Stereoscopic 3D Adjust" filter (although that also crashes Vegas, a lot). I've seen the Cineform Neo tutorial, and it sure seems more powerful. Good to know that it is.

Regarding copying .m2ts files onto an SD card, and re-inserting that in the TD10, I'd like to know if you have any success with that. The instruction manual with the TD10 suggests that it should be possible, but does not say how. I tried that procedure, in order to be able to show selects to others (and set the camera to view the SD card as its medium), but the camera did not see any of the files.

If indeed Cineform's Neo will (any day now) natively handle MVC, then I'd much prefer that, to stick with FCP. Either way, I'll need to buy a new computer to handle all the throughput, so the main question is to stick with Mac, or move to PC...

[Bruce Schultz]

All good points Matt.

"I wonder how FCP X fares with .m2ts files?" It seems to handle them very well, however, sticking an MVC / M2TS file into it will only give you 2D. I am impressed with only one thing about FCP X which is it's very robust playback engine. It's really something, but I'm afraid it's the only thing I can recommend it for as it's other lack of funtions cancel everything out for me. I'm waiting to see if Apple makes this once again a professional program like FCP 7. They are losing huge market share every day they delay for sure.

"I have been hoping that this was mostly a matter of a slow PC, and that adequate CPU/GPU/RAM would bring Vegas up to snuff, but that' s just theory, so far" Not so much theory really. I rebuilt my computer to an 8-core i7 with 16GB RAM and still couldn't playback some files without stutter in Vegas. Same files play fine in PPro CS5 on Windows and PPro CS5 & FCP7 on Mac.

On controls like ghost busting and features like 3D text, Tim Dashwood's Stereo Toolbox 3D can't be beat. He has a much more robust toolset than either Neo3D or any NLE standard tools like Vegas or Avid MC 5. Avid MC6 looks pretty promising for 3D though, but expensive.

I'm still experimenting with repositioning the downloaded camera files back onto the SD card and using the camera with CMU or PMB software. I'll post an update when I get more info.

[Wolfgang Schmid]

With my i7 2600K overclocked to 4.3 Ghz, the playback of Sony TD10 mvc files is fine. It has been fine for Vegas Pro 10e, it is fine for Vegas Pro 11 too. There is not a lot of playback reserves, but it works.

The Vegas convergene tool work fine - the adjustment of the horizontal difference between the two videoparts adjust in the end of the day the position where the convergence is zero, so what comes out or what stays behind the monitor. It is especially great if you use in the internal preview window a difference picture, where you see in a very quick way where the convergence is zero - and use a nvidia 3D vision with a 120 Hz monitor for the preview of the video (even that still works with a Quadro only). The only range for improvement would be to see how many pixel you shift the video parts (so to show the parallax in a direct way).

I never ever would like to edit MVC file directly in the camcorder or with an sdhc chip.Why not move that to the harddisc? Vegas generates the audio waveform files, and that is not fine in the camcorder.

[Bruce Schultz]

Wolfgang, perhaps you could share any computer fine tuning tips and tricks you've used to help those of us who are having Vegas playback issues resolve them. I have a system close to yours (i7 @ only 3.33 though) and can't get native m2ts files to playback at all on a Vegas timeline or in the Viewer. The same files playout fine in PPro CS5 in Windows so I'm pretty sure it's a Vegas setup issue and not hardware. Any tips would be appreciated as this playback issue is what prevents me from using Vegas more often.

[Matt Faw]

And I'd also love to hear what GPU has worked for others. I've done a lot of homework on this, online, but most of the reviews are about 3D gaming, rather than production.

The following page from Sony's site has information on which GPUs function with their graphics acceleration.

Vegas Pro 11 GPU acceleration

[Matt Faw]

Originally Posted by Bruce Schultz

On controls like ghost busting and features like 3D text, Tim Dashwood's Stereo Toolbox 3D can't be beat. He has a much more robust toolset than either Neo3D or any NLE standard tools like Vegas or Avid MC 5.

Bruce, thanks for the tip.

I have a current project, a small youtube consciousness documentary interview with my dad, who is a psychology professor. I shot it with the TD10 and GoPro rig as b-camera. I am posting it (so far) on Vegas. Once I have a rough cut, I think I'll try to bring the footage into FCP, and invest in the Stereo Toolbox to finish the project.

And then I'm going to try to integrate stereo CGI (purchased brain models, animated in 3D Studio Max) in the Z-space (and nose room) in front of my dad. That'll be a whole new learning curve...

[Wolfgang Schmid]

Originally Posted by Bruce Schultz

Wolfgang, perhaps you could share any computer fine tuning tips and tricks you've used to help those of us who are having Vegas playback issues resolve them. I have a system close to yours (i7 @ only 3.33 though) and can't get native m2ts files to playback at all on a Vegas timeline or in the Viewer. The same files playout fine in PPro CS5 in Windows so I'm pretty sure it's a Vegas setup issue and not hardware. Any tips would be appreciated as this playback issue is what prevents me from using Vegas more often.

Well, I am talking about 1080 50i MVC files, from my Sony TD10 but also from my Panasonic Z10000. Playback of those files works fine in Vegas Pro 11 build 425/426, if I use an overclocked i7 2600 K. In more detail, I use the preview settings "preview full" to achieve my 25 fps.

The hardware I use to preview those files is a Quadro 2000D, together with a nvidia 3D vision and a 120 Hz 3D ASUS monitor - what is a nice combination. The reason why I use the Quadro is that only with a Quadro you have a secondary preview with Vegas (even if I know that one of the new features of Vegas Pro 11 is that it should allow the 3D preview on a single-monitor setting too, but a lot of people have issues with that).

I do not use the GPU acceleration really, since I have seen that the Quadro 2000D is so weak in terms of CUDA cores, that it slows down the system in both preview capabilities but also render time. I have in addition a GTX 570 in my system, what is a little bit tricky to install beside the Quadro - but you can do that in a way where the GTX acts als CUDA slave only. But even here I see a speed improvement in render time, but not really in the preview of MVC files. So for preview I stick still to CPU only (what you adjust in Options/Preferences/Video).

For sure, the project properties have to be adjusted to the footage we use - but that is standard I think.

So I was talking about MVC m2ts files only. If you have 2D m2ts files that does not play back really, then there must be another issue. 3D MVC 1080 50i/60i is more demanding then 2D AVCHD 1080 50p/60p, and that is more demanding then 2D AVCHD 1080 50i/60i.

[Bruce Schultz]

Wolfgang, yes I was referring to stuttering playback on MVC 3D files. I use a NVidia GTX 285 CUDA graphics card but it doesn't seem to help much in Vegas 11 nor did it in 10E.

Vegas seems to have no trouble with standardized codecs like XDCAM or AVI but the highly compressed AVCHD type files seem to choke it on playback.

[Wolfgang Schmid]

I think maybe the GTX 285 is not strong enough, in relation to your CPU. So I would try the preview with disabled cuda in options/preferences/video, where you set cuda to none.

What kind of hardware do you use - beside the i7? What is the 3D preview hardware?

I assume that you use an NTSC model, so are the project properties set to 1920x1080, upper field first, 30 fps?

How many frames/second do you see in your internal preview, what preview settings do you use, for a pure Sony TD10 file, without any filters?

[Bruce Schultz]

Wolfgang, I'm anxious to try out those settings, but I have to go out and shoot a quick shout-out with Mrs. Pitt today. I'll get back to you tomorrow on this.

[Tim Trott]

I installed some recommended player and AVI converter files and wound up with a Trojan virus - Bunat@rts which appears as Smart HDD. Not sure which file had the nasty in it -- the AVI converter or the player or the fffd driver file. Beware.