Sony HDR-TD10 3D camcorder announced at CES

[Pavel Houda]

Absolutely. The only reason I mentioned the MVC was if someone wanted to remove the flash memory and read and use it. If they were to capture the HDMI, that the video is frame packed pixels and can be processed as you describe. Sorry for the messy and overly lengthy attempt of explanation.

[Alister Chapman]

But that is my point. If you took out the SD card and read the file with suitable software, the MVC file will contain enough data to re-create two full L/R streams of 1920x1080 video. It is just data, however you look at it. So it should be perfectly feasible to write an algorithm to extract the data from the file and do whatever is needed to decode the streams. Written correctly this codec should be transparent to the end user just as any other codec is, so editing need not be any more complicated than it is for 2D. Having a single multiplexed file as opposed to two separate files, for an end user or consumer will be easier to manage and understand.

The question is whether someone will write the decoder. If the demand is there, I'm sure someone will do it.

[Adam Stanislav]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

Having a single multiplexed file as opposed to two separate files, for an end user or consumer will be easier to manage and understand.

Not only that. Such a file can be usually compressed much better (subtracting the right view from the left channel should produce a stream that compresses better than compressing the right view on its own merits). This saves space on the media cards as well as hard disks.

[Les Wilson]

I'm quite interested in this discussion. According to the response in this thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/3d-stere...-standard.html

JVC and Panasonic are using side by side frames while Sony is using interleaved. And, both are covered by the relevant ISO 3D standard. As I recall, Panasonic's frames are anamorphic while JVC claims full 1080 frames. All the usual inter and intra-frame compression techniques are available in each technique. I think the NLE CODEC should be able to hide all of it and present any of them on a timeline in a perfectly rational manner.

[Alister Chapman]

The JVC can record two separate full frame L/R streams as well as side by side and other modes according to JVC's press release. What comes out of the HDMI connection is a little less clear.

[Pavel Houda]

Removed by Author.

[Heinz Bihlmeir]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

.
The question is whether someone will write the decoder. If the demand is there, I'm sure someone will do it.

Methods and programs to extract and recover the right eye stream from a MVC file set are available and discussed in various forums like biohemmet.se or doom9.org.

[Pavel Houda]

Absolutely. The algorithms are available, They must be for MVC to become a standard. Most major companies and Universities dealing with 3D have the codecs in S/W and H/W. The industry direction is obvious. I wasn't talking about highly technical people. I was talking about the people for whom these products are meant - the general public. Almost anything can be reverse-engineered and work-arounds can be designed. Some elegant, other not so much, all very error prone. If general public starts doing that, they'll have worse impression of 3D than they are already getting. Too many things can make 3D an unpleasant experience. Actually from what I saw so far, even many professional works are problematic. I think that 3D at this time can be barely acceptably done by the pro's and highly technical hobbyists. I am afraid that badly done amateur 3D can cause unpleasant experience and negative attitude towards 3D to a general user. It should be left to the pro's for a while longer. When we went from B/W to color and from SD to HD, the only issues were cost and lack of content, performance was just plus. It is not at all the case with 3D.

BTW, the recently announced JVC consumer camcorder stores MVC compressed video as well. For 3D camcorders MVC will replace AVC and HDMI 1.4a will replace HDMI 1.3, editors will be updated to ingest MVC and life goes on.

[Alister Chapman]

Originally Posted by Pavel Houda

I think that 3D at this time can be barely acceptably done by the pro's and highly technical hobbyists. I am afraid that badly done amateur 3D can cause unpleasant experience and negative attitude towards 3D to a general user. It should be left to the pro's for a while longer. When we went from B/W to color and from SD to HD, the only issues were cost and lack of content, performance was just plus. It is not at all the case with 3D.

I couldn't disagree more. Those that know what they are doing are producing extremely good S3D productions that have completely re-vitalised the movie industry. Not every film is good, but the same happened in the early days of colour, there were many badly done colour films and in the early days of HD focus was often questionable to say the least. It's just that we have forgotten many of the issues and teething troubles that new technologies present.

Of course ANY badly done video, whether its a wobbly home video or poor 3D effort will put people off, but despite the shocking quality of many 2D home videos, camcorders still sell in their millions. Even my wife likes playing with my Fuji W3. These point and shoot 3D camcorders are exactly what the market needs. Don't forget that most home movies will only ever be seen on smallish home screens, where disparity errors etc are far less of a problem than in a movie theater. The simple "wow" factor of 3D home movies will impress more than it will put off IMHO.

Right now 3D's biggest problem is lack of content, just as in the early days of HD. How can we expect people to fork out large sums of money on expensive new 3D TV's when there is almost nothing to watch? A hand full of 3D movies on BluRay is not enough. There needs to be a continuous stream of new and imaginative content before 3D TV sales will really take off.

Originally Posted by Pavel Houda

For 3D camcorders MVC will replace AVC and HDMI 1.4a will replace HDMI 1.3, editors will be updated to ingest MVC and life goes on.

MVC is a subset of AVCHD, so AVCHD is not being replaced, just used in a different way.


As I said in my first post in this thread MVC decoder can already de-mux the 3D stream, while this isn't perhaps a consumer workflow, it's not particularly hard to do. HDV was almost impossible to edit when it first appeared with only one very hard to use piece of software available that could edit the native files. Within a year there were a dozen plugins and after 2 years it was built in to most edit packages, even the low end bundled consumer ones. MVC will most likely be the same. It just needs a little time to mature.

[David M. Cole]

I have an HDR-TD10 in hand. I have to wonder why this thing records 3D in 1080 60i. The HDMI 1.4a spec does not mandate 1080 60i and I'm yet to find a 3DTV that can support it in frame-packed (full res) mode.
Not even sure a Bravia 3D set can display 1080 60i frame-packed.

Any ideas??

[Giroud Francois]

the MVC video recorded by the TD10 can perfectly be translated to left/right separate file using
the MVC converter from 3DTV.AT.
it will give you 2 full HD avi file (i tested it with cineform Neo codec as output).
So there is absolutely no problem to shoot/edit with this camera.
You can also easily burn the MVC back to blu-ray with VEGA ver 10d.

[Giroud Francois]

Please also note the the TD10 just has a "pro" sister that record 3D in 24p also.
unfortunately the pro version cost twice the price.
hope a firmware upde would apply to the TD10 for getting 24p.

[Arnie Schlissel]

Originally Posted by David M. Cole

I have to wonder why this thing records 3D in 1080 60i. The HDMI 1.4a spec does not mandate 1080 60i and I'm yet to find a 3DTV that can support it in frame-packed (full res) mode.
Not even sure a Bravia 3D set can display 1080 60i frame-packed.

Welcome to the world of Sony. At times, I wonder if even they know why they do some of these things.

[David M. Cole]

I suppose one could crack the MVC into L & R 1080 60i AVCHD streams, then de-interlace / interpolate into 720 60P. I'm guessing consumers will wind up playing side-side (half res) from the camera to their HDMI 1.4a compliant 3DTVs. I'm really not sure about the utility of this camera.

Does anyone happen to know if Bravia 3D TVs support the (un-mandated) HDMI 1080 60i frame-packed output from the camera?

[David M. Cole]

Originally Posted by Giroud Francois

the MVC video recorded by the TD10 can perfectly be translated to left/right separate file using
the MVC converter from 3DTV.AT.
it will give you 2 full HD avi file (i tested it with cineform Neo codec as output).
So there is absolutely no problem to shoot/edit with this camera.
You can also easily burn the MVC back to blu-ray with VEGA ver 10d.

HOW do you get 1080 60i back in to a 1080 24p timeline - which is the ONLY 1080 3D format supported in the 3D Blu-ray specifications and the HDMI 1.4a specifications?