Any direct-to-disk solutions for recording uncompressed? at DVinfo.net

Roy Bemelmans · January 18th, 2006, 03:42 AM

I'm curious. At the high end of the industry (Viper, CineAlta) are there any direct-to-disk RAID array portable solutions for recording uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4, accepting the signal from the camera via HD-SDI or Dual Link HD-SDI?

Matthew Greene · January 18th, 2006, 04:24 AM

Not any ones that are economic. I guess the Wafian is the closest, but it's not uncompressed nor portable in a sense of running around with it.

I have a feeling that the best solution might be a custom made one, where you take a portable computer based system outfitted with a RAID and SDI capture card (8 or 10 bit, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4) and then power the whole thing with DC power. Not a terribly practical setup but it's probably the closest thing to a portable recorder that you're going to come across without spending huge bucks.

Maybe I'm not considering something, don't take my word as if it were carved on stone...

Douglas Spotted Eagle · January 18th, 2006, 08:50 AM

The Wafian or QSOL tools are not horribly expensive, but past that...figure a quarter mil just for storage, and it's the size of a small under-bar refrigerator. This isn't an easy task in the field, simply because of lacking power and bus speed on a laptop. But I'm pretty certain you could build a drive array using SATA, and feed it with some light compression format.

Nick Jushchyshyn · January 18th, 2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy Bemelmans

I'm curious. At the high end of the industry (Viper, CineAlta) are there any direct-to-disk RAID array portable solutions for recording uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4, accepting the signal from the camera via HD-SDI or Dual Link HD-SDI?

Not as an "on camera" solution, but maybe "transportable".
At PixelCorps, we typically shoot with a CineAlta F950, capturing 4:4:4 to a HUGE Systems RAID array via a Kona2 on a Dual G5 Power Mac running Final Cut. We've used XRAIDs from Apple as well, but they barely keep up at 24p. The HUGE Systems 4106 Media Vault seems to keep up with little effort.

The resulting quicktime files can be edited as needed.
On the PC, you'd need to download AJA's codec, but then just about any NLE that support QuickTime files should be able to work with the video files. I've even worked with these on little-'ole Ulead Media Studio Pro.

At the moment, there's nothing "camcorder portable" though.
Too much storage space, horsepower, and associated cooling is needed to digest data at these rates.

Kevin Shaw · January 18th, 2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

I'm pretty certain you could build a drive array using SATA, and feed it with some light compression format.

That makes sense, since the data rate for minimally compressed codecs like DNxHD or Cineform Prospect HD are under 250 Mbps, or basically 30 megabytes/sec. That's well within the theoretical throughput of a single fast modern hard drive, and ought to be easily sustainable on a two-drive RAID. So drop two drives in a small, portable computer case using a RAID0 configuration, add an HD-SDI input card and an appropriate capture codec plus an LCD monitor and a keyboard, and away you go. Toss a small portable generator into the mix and the entire recording setup should easily fit on a golf cart, or even a mountain bike if you were determined enough to try that.

So a lot depends on your definition of "portable."

Dan Euritt · January 18th, 2006, 01:14 PM

i believe that an engineer here on dvinfo is currently designing a portable 4:2:2(?) recorder.

Keith Wakeham · January 18th, 2006, 02:08 PM

Ya that engineer fellow would likely be me :)

Check out the website, drop me an email with comments or design ideas or if you wish to be in the beta group.

The first prototype is being built this month so I'm rather excited.

Edit: Ya, 4:2:2 for the standalone deck, but its fairly open. I'm planning on a dual link setup so two can be connected in parallel for portable (beit a little heavier) high def 4:4:4 12 bit per channel uncompressed.

Ken Hodson · January 18th, 2006, 04:33 PM

As for codec's how about sheervideo's?

http://www.bitjazz.com/sheervideo/

Avids ?

"Avid DNxHD 145 8-bit media delivers HD quality while requiring approximately 20% less storage capacity than 8-bit uncompressed standard definition media."

Cineform ProspectHD?
Sounds great but it isn't sold on its own.
Visually lossless at 10bit and can capture to a single drive is quite amazing, but requires fair bit of CPU. Too bad they restrict AspectHD from capturing SDI. It would be a phenominal low cost solution where portability is concerned.
Dang Cineform, dang! (said in Napoleon Dynamite voice :)

What about HuffYUV?

Serge Victorovich · January 19th, 2006, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy Bemelmans

I'm curious. At the high end of the industry (Viper, CineAlta) are there any direct-to-disk RAID array portable solutions for recording uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4, accepting the signal from the camera via HD-SDI or Dual Link HD-SDI?

http://ctt.ru/products/hd/flash_dvr/
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....08&postcount=7

Kevin Shaw · January 19th, 2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

Cineform ProspectHD?
Sounds great but it isn't sold on its own.

Um, yeah it is: see following link at the bottom of the page.

http://www.cineform.com/index.asp

Ken Hodson · January 19th, 2006, 06:02 PM

Um, yeah good work. It didn't used to be.
$3499 USD puts it in a price bracket all its own. Ouch!

Dan Euritt · January 20th, 2006, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

Um, yeah it is: see following link at the bottom of the page.

http://www.cineform.com/index.asp

um, no it's not... the only way that a software codec would be of any value here is if there was hardware to run it on, with an interface to the camera... maybe like a more portable version of that Wafian? or perhaps on a laptop that somehow had a bastard dinky aja card in it.

i don't know any of the specific details, but i believe that keith designed his own chipset for the video recorder we are talking about... as i understand it, there isn't anything else on the market today that is comparable to what his company is doing right now... and it's at a quality/price point that will blow hdv clean out of the water.

and if it all pans out, i'll be right there going "i told you so", lol.

Ken Hodson · January 20th, 2006, 04:01 PM

Dan, everyone of the codecs mentioned would still need hardware.
The Wafian is exactly the setup Cineform offers for this task, but you could build your own PC if wanted. The beauty of ProspectHD solution it it can capture its 10bit visually lossless codec to a single drive! Amazing, as heavy duty RAID solutions would be the bulk of cost/power/size for all other solutions.
I wish Cineform would list the PC specs for ingest.

January 18th, 2006, 03:42 AM	#1
Roy Bemelmans Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 52	Any direct-to-disk solutions for recording uncompressed? I'm curious. At the high end of the industry (Viper, CineAlta) are there any direct-to-disk RAID array portable solutions for recording uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4, accepting the signal from the camera via HD-SDI or Dual Link HD-SDI?

January 18th, 2006, 08:50 AM	#3
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	The Wafian or QSOL tools are not horribly expensive, but past that...figure a quarter mil just for storage, and it's the size of a small under-bar refrigerator. This isn't an easy task in the field, simply because of lacking power and bus speed on a laptop. But I'm pretty certain you could build a drive array using SATA, and feed it with some light compression format. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

January 18th, 2006, 02:08 PM	#7
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	Ya that engineer fellow would likely be me :) Check out the website, drop me an email with comments or design ideas or if you wish to be in the beta group. The first prototype is being built this month so I'm rather excited. Edit: Ya, 4:2:2 for the standalone deck, but its fairly open. I'm planning on a dual link setup so two can be connected in parallel for portable (beit a little heavier) high def 4:4:4 12 bit per channel uncompressed. __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm

January 18th, 2006, 04:33 PM	#8
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	As for codec's how about sheervideo's? http://www.bitjazz.com/sheervideo/ Avids ? "Avid DNxHD 145 8-bit media delivers HD quality while requiring approximately 20% less storage capacity than 8-bit uncompressed standard definition media." Cineform ProspectHD? Sounds great but it isn't sold on its own. Visually lossless at 10bit and can capture to a single drive is quite amazing, but requires fair bit of CPU. Too bad they restrict AspectHD from capturing SDI. It would be a phenominal low cost solution where portability is concerned. Dang Cineform, dang! (said in Napoleon Dynamite voice :) What about HuffYUV? __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 19th, 2006, 06:02 PM	#11
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Um, yeah good work. It didn't used to be. $3499 USD puts it in a price bracket all its own. Ouch! __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 18th, 2006, 04:24 AM	#2
Matthew Greene Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV / Branson, MO Posts: 63	Not any ones that are economic. I guess the Wafian is the closest, but it's not uncompressed nor portable in a sense of running around with it. I have a feeling that the best solution might be a custom made one, where you take a portable computer based system outfitted with a RAID and SDI capture card (8 or 10 bit, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4) and then power the whole thing with DC power. Not a terribly practical setup but it's probably the closest thing to a portable recorder that you're going to come across without spending huge bucks. Maybe I'm not considering something, don't take my word as if it were carved on stone...

January 18th, 2006, 01:14 PM	#6
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	i believe that an engineer here on dvinfo is currently designing a portable 4:2:2(?) recorder.

January 20th, 2006, 04:01 PM	#13
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Dan, everyone of the codecs mentioned would still need hardware. The Wafian is exactly the setup Cineform offers for this task, but you could build your own PC if wanted. The beauty of ProspectHD solution it it can capture its 10bit visually lossless codec to a single drive! Amazing, as heavy duty RAID solutions would be the bulk of cost/power/size for all other solutions. I wish Cineform would list the PC specs for ingest. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.