DSE:

1. If you look at my post, and follow the thread, you will discern that I am responding to another post asking about editing native HDV and I was referring to the Native HDV editing and some color problems associated with it as reported by you and others. I was not criticizing Cineforms product. I was merely reporting that in editing in HDV native, I had noticed and occasional color problem- exactly what you and others have indicated, and I was only confirming that.

2. I am confused about Cinefrom as an available codec in Vegas 6. Are you saying I should have it with VMS Platinum too, as reported by Mark Bryant above ?

3. As far as doing projects in HDV, I clearly stated that I had only done tests in Vegas Movie Studio. That doesn't mean I haven't done projects using native HDV editing in Premiere Pro.

4. File size: I will stand corrected on the multiplier. It has been some time since I used the trial version, but the point is that it does use significantly more space and I was pointing out that that should be planned for. Again, I am not slamming the product. I was only pointing out what needed to be done.

Movie Studio also has the CineForm codec installed with the product.
You keep saying "significantly more space." It's approx 3 times the space.
It's HD. Understand that even at 3 times the space, it's insignificant compared to other compression schemes. It's HD. It's big. It's 4 times the resolution for less than 4 times the file size. Do the math. This is where it gets frustrating. You want 4 times the pixels in the same amount of space.
I realize I'm being combative, but just stop for a second and think about what's happening in this discussion. It's been sidetracked, and sidetracked in part because some folks aren't understanding that:
1. HDV is 4 times the pixels of DV.
2. HDV is same raw file size as HDV, but that file format was never intended to be edited. the mere words "Native HDV editing" should be banned from our vocabulary, because it's marketing hype. MPEG is a lousy editing format at small bitrates. HDV *barely* gets into the acceptable bitrate for editing. This is why CineForm, Canopus NX, Apple AIC, and several other DI's exist. Because it's the smart way to work. But some folks want the size of HDV to match the size and experience of editing DV. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. It's a LOT more information. Ain't no free lunch.
And on a slower computer, native HDV isn't going to happen anyway. Not in Premiere, Vegas, Canopus, Apple, etc, etc.
Comparing Premiere Pro 2 to VMS is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? You're comparing a 79.99 software to a 499.00 software.

This thread started out as a consumer level question about the HC1 and how to get best video to DVD. In the process, others started discussing HDV editing solutions. To us consumer level users, "editing" at a native level may produce the best bang for the buck, and my responses in this thread were based on that. It was an open discussion about various avenues, costs, etc. The size of disc storage needed for that purpose is a valid concern to the hobbiest. Theres a big difference in the cost of a 500 gig drive, and a 160. If its coming out of your salary at Home Depot, it makes a difference.

If you are in the actual business of video production for a living, then you do what you have to to deliver a top product. But this thread was clearly a hobbiest level discussion. Nobody has said that it is better to edit in HDV native. I do edit that way, and I'll be darn, I actually have access to transitions, color correction, slow motion processing, and all the other things associated with editing when I edit HDV native. And with my generic set up, I do so relatively trouble free, at least to the level I need it, and that is what I reported.

I believe DVInfo includes consumer oriented users, and is not limited to professional level users. Am I wrong about that ?

Paul:

I actually upgraded 1.51 to 2.0 to get the capability. I still have 1.51 on the system to if I want to use Cineform Codec to capture with. As far as being more intuitive, I'm sure others will tell you Vegas is more intuitive. For me, I have used the Premiere interfaces for about 5 years, so I'm used to their look and feel.

challenges of HDV editing?
 

I'd be very happy if someone could explain in short:
What are the main differences between editing DV and HDV with the the help of CineForm in Vegas?

on a relatively fast 'puter (say...3.6GHz or faster) there is virtually no difference at all. CineForm is incredibly optimized. If you do a lot of editing, it's foolishness to not use it, IMO.

even if foolish, I take from your answer that one COULD - not - use Cineform.
Do I understand right that this would mean editing in mpeg4, which you say: Why is it lousy to edit, what are the major pitfalls, are there any advantages as well?

and talking 'puter...Vegas is speedier on double cores, yes?

Not sure how MPEG 4 entered the picture here, as HDV is MPEG 2, not 4. MPEG 4 is a horrible editing format, worse than MPEG2.
You could use any number of codecs or formats in Vegas. You can use native m2t, you can convert to DV, uncompressed HD, several HD intermediary formats, yadayadayada. On the HDI front, CineForm simply has done it well.

Advantages of editing MPEG?
I can't think of any. GOP was never intended for anything but display and archive. Fast built systems based around very high bitrate MPEG, and Sony Beta SX is built around it, but again...it's a delivery/archival format. Takes a lot of CPU horsepower just to decode it. Eventually, we'll see more NLE's take advantage of GPU, but that's limited, currently.


Yes, Vegas loves dual cores.

Thank you very much for your answers.

Sorry for the mpeg4, but it prooves what the simple style of my questions also may show, that I do not understand much of formats, codecs etc.

I know how to download my SD video from my cam, edit it in Vegas, convert it to mpeg2 resp. ac3, author it with DVA and write it to DVD - and wonder how much of an adventure it would be if I got myself a HC3 or HC1, if I'd encounter more problems than I'd want to put up with, if future consumer HD cams will use other formats again, and if those will be easier or more difficult to edit.
I believe that there are more people out there who are in a similar position with similar questions, so I dare asking.

I am happy to know now that with Vegas 6 all required to edit HC1/HC3 footage seems to be a fast computer.

But your answers also raise more questions, which are very naive, and therefore might not deserve your, THE DSE's attention:

--What are m2t and uncompressed HD formats? Are they used by professional HD cameras only and therefore are of no concern to HC1/HC3 users?
--Do HC1/HC3 record in mpeg2, but as mpeg is difficult to edit there are various easier to edit 'HD intermediate formats', one of them being the CineForm?
--What is GOP?

I'd totally understand if you don't answer, I'd just take it that I should study up first..

GOP = Group Of Pictures.

A mpeg-2 GOP consists of one complete frame and then a sequence of difference frames. So to decode the last frame in a GOP all frames have to be read from the initial frame at the start. Some mpeg-2 encoding systems use very short GOPs and are fast to decode, HDV uses a 15 frame GOP so is hard to decode but easy to encode but it's very efficient i.e. lots of picture data can be squeezed into a small bandwidth. This is fine for acquisition but lousy for editing.

Also this encoding scheme has high generational loss and it's visually very bad with errors having block boundaries. The CF codec uses wavelets. This scheme is not as effiicent but has less loss and any loss is way less visible. Also it's easier to decode making for easier editing.

All these are compression systems, some types of compression are bad, most good ones are very good, they're our friends, without them we'd be forced to use mosterous amounts of disk space, cameras would be unafforable etc.
Compression takes many forms, spatial, temporal and color space.

Yes do some reading. To work with uncompressed HD you're looking at TBytes of data and staggering data rates.

HDV via the CF codec is pretty smooth to edit in Vegas. You can also capture HDV as m2t in Vegas and use DV proxies to edit.

Vegas Movie Studio Installs with Cineform codec ??
 

I checked my installation of Vegas Movie Studio Platinum. I am up to date (6.0b build 126), but my capture of HDV using the internal capture utility results in a .m2t file extension. Also, when I try to render to the Cineform intermediate Codec, I get the message that my trial has run out. I assume this is from the HD Connect trial I installed at one time.

I do have the codec on board for capturing in Premiere Pro 1.51 and can edit with it in that application.

So my question is what have I done wrong to not have access to the Cineform codec in Vegas Movie Studio Platinum.

Chris,

When using the Cineform codec included with Vegas you still capture the native m2t, then you render it to Cineform Intermediate. (It is only with Connect HD that you capture "directly" to Cineform).

As for the other issue, there is a problem (bug) with the interaction with the trial, others have also hit this. To solve it I think you need to reinstall Vegas.

Mark

Thanks Mark, I just did the reinstall, and now have the ability you indicate.

I guess the good thing is I can capture with Cineform in Premiere Pro 1.51, then bring it into Vegas MS to edit if I want to go that way.

Native HDV editing...
 

Here's what I don't understand...

There are 3 benefits to an intermediate, as I understand it:

1) Improved workflow on slower machines
2) No GOP issues
3) Less compression, therefore fewer artifacts on recompression...

Let's assume we're going to edit on a wicked fast machine (dual opteron), so #1 isn't an issue...

Let's assume we're editing directly from the HDV files to the final format in 1 generation. Since we'd have to use this same generation to get to the intermediate, #3 isn't an issue (or not much of one)...

With regards to #2, I have been doing some experiments with cuts and disolves and other effects with PP2 and Vegas on HDV, and the rendered result seems very smooth and accurate, no matter which frame I start or end the effect on. In fact, has anyone had any GOP issues with native HDV in Vegas or PP2? I've heard all about it, but can't replicate it myself...

If #2 turns out to be a boogeyman, and 1 and 3 are not big issues, I still don't see the need to jump to an intermediate if my performance is good with HDV, and my editing needs are simple (cuts and dissolves, not heavy compositing, etc...)

Finally, many 'pro' level packages have been touting native-HDV editing latley (such as $10K+ Axios, avid, and others) so the idea that it's not something 'pros' want to do seems odd.

DSE? What say you? (Don't hurt me...)

Best,

Benjamin

Another reason you need an intermediate is because Vegas can currently only handle about 80 m2t clips on a timeline at once before it crashes.

and later:
Would be a notebook with an Intel dual core 1,666 MHz and 1 GB Ram be enough? They are quite inexpensive now, or should it be min. a dual core 1,830 MHz?