Vegas Video discussions from 2003

David Newman · November 13th, 2003, 03:54 PM

Dustin,

Visually you don't lose anything. Mathematically this in not like Microcosm which is an excellent codec. Basically if you want 5 times the performance without visually degrading the image, the Aspect HD system is a good choice.

Here is the Charlie White (digitalvideoediting.com) quote regarding Aspect HD's image quality:

"The software performs beautifully, its clever codec so well-designed that I couldn't tell the quality difference between shots before they were edited and after."

You can read the entire Charlie White review from the top link at this address http://www.cineform.com/news/.

Josef Crow · November 13th, 2003, 08:49 PM

thanks for the reply, David. 30 GB per hour is amazing. But how does the image stand up to being blown up (projected on HD or film)?? And would what format would be needed to edit straight in premiere or after effects (for things Aspect can't do). AVI? Huffyuv? or will premiere and aspect recognize Apects codec - that would be great for storage.

ANd is cineform working on 24p solution as well? I mean, 24p 1080x720 should require less than 30 GB per hour - that's the Panny Varicam!!

David Newman · November 13th, 2003, 09:10 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Josef Crow : thanks for the reply, David. 30 GB per hour is amazing. But how does the image stand up to being blown up (projected on HD or film)??-->>>

We have technology partners using our compression technology for theatre presentation. They say you just can't tell that it has been compressed.

<<-- And would what format would be needed to edit straight in premiere or after effects (for things Aspect can't do). AVI? Huffyuv? or will premiere and aspect recognize Apects codec - that would be great for storage. -->>

Aspect HD codec works in nearly everything on the PC (working on the last few things.) So you can currently import CFHD (the Aspect HD AVI format) straight into After Effects (we are finalizing an exporter version of CFHD for After Effects.)

<<--ANd is cineform working on 24p solution as well? I mean, 24p 1080x720 should require less than 30 GB per hour - that's the Panny Varicam!! -->>>

Yes we are working on 24p and 1920x1080 versions of the technology.

Scott Osborne · November 13th, 2003, 10:17 PM

Nice.......I also really want to know about the sound track....Do you have a version encoded for Dolby 5.1? Also did you just use a wav file or did you create that with a Audio sequencer app like Cubase or Logic Audio. I thought some of those instruments sounded a bit like some of the stuff in Reason 2.5...If you did create that from scatch, Many Many props!

Dale Nicholson · November 14th, 2003, 07:24 AM

Decisions-decisions....Here's my problem: I will be using a dvx100 camera, shooting in either 24p or 24p advanced. That means my options for an NLE are limited. I'm leaning to either Vegas or Avid XPress Pro. It's my understanding that those are the only two NLE's that can handle 24p natively, correct? If that's the case, those are my two high end NLE options.

Hypothetically, if I use Vegas to edit my 24p feature-length production, I want to be able to use software like AE or Combustion for effects or even another fancy effects title, then use an authoring program software.

Two questions:
1) Is it okay to mix and match like that without losing quality in 24p--going from Vegas to AE to ??? I'd be curious how many of you mix and match and What You Use, especially you 24p people???

2) I love the authoring potential of Vegas because of the 5.1 output possibility, but admire the more advanced motion menus, more professional higher-end software. I'm still a little confused--getting mixed messages--about what other authoring software will output to 5.1, using 24p, and without having to purchase another program. What will Vegas give me authoring, specifically, that Encore or ReelDVD won't???

Thank you for your thoughtful replies.
Dale

Glenn Chan · November 14th, 2003, 07:55 AM

Final Cut Pro 4 also allows you to edit in 24p.

By feature-length do you mean ~2 hours? (Are you nuts?!)

Erik Rangel · November 14th, 2003, 08:34 AM

David,
is there any reason for me to keep the m2t files after i've converted them to CFHD, or can i delete them?
E.

oh yeah... editing with aspect hd is fun as all hell. Can't wait for the on the fly converting of m2t to cfhd though.

David Newman · November 14th, 2003, 10:31 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Erik Rangel : David,
is there any reason for me to keep the m2t files after i've converted them to CFHD, or can i delete them?
E.

oh yeah... editing with aspect hd is fun as all hell. Can't wait for the on the fly converting of m2t to cfhd though. -->>>

Thank you for this quote. :)

You don't need to keep the m2t files around. The real-time convert is being finalized now, it took longer to do the last 10% than we expected, but the time spent in developement was worth it, that feature is extra cool.

Erik Rangel · November 14th, 2003, 11:22 AM

Thanks David,
I'm guessing that upgrade will be available for download... to versions that are activated. I haven't activated it yet because I just started editing my short yesterday. (first day trying out aspect hd) doubt i'll need the full thirty day trial before activation. I'd like to activate before pro version comes out so i can get the upgrade. Any guesstimation on when that might be?
E.

oh yeah, go ahead and quote me on your website:)

Don Donatello · November 14th, 2003, 11:37 AM

from EXPERIENCE: when you take sections of clips into another program for EFFECTS work render them out of Vegas as uncompressed avi or uncompressed QT.mov . then work on it in AE/combustion. then render out of AE/combustion as uncompressed. then drop uncompressed clip into Vegas TL ...
AE/combustion cannot use the Vegas Dv codec. so they will default to use msDV codec. msDV codec does not read clips rendered with Vegas codec correctly and Vegas codec does not read clips rendered with msDV codec correctly. BOTH have no problem reading uncompressed correctly... mixing different dv codec's ( canopus, main concepts etc) they all work excellent provided you do NOT mix the rendered clips. once you mix em X codec will not read Y codec clips correctly - artifacts/levels/colors will be off slightly...
working with uncompressed ( 4:4:4 color space) you'll find will give you a little better mask, rotoscoping, color correction, keying etc ( even if original was 4:1:1) ..

" that can handle 24p natively"

that only applys to 24pA .. if you want to get rid of normal pull - i don't think Vegas can do it , i know hi end avids can , combustion , AE can remove normal pull down but this is something you would do after you edit the project ...

David Newman · November 14th, 2003, 11:58 AM

Thanks Erik,

The new CFCapture utility will be a free download to all registered users. The Premiere Pro version should be out by the end of the year.

Erik, I always want to ask Aspect HD customers this question: What is the greatest number of layers and effects you applied and still got full real-time will no dropped frames? The companion question is how is your PC configured. (this probably should be in a new thread.)

Dale Nicholson · November 14th, 2003, 12:17 PM

<<By feature-length do you mean ~2 hours? (Are you nuts?!)>>

In this business I'm either nuts or talented--depends what day of the week you ask me.

Kevin King · November 14th, 2003, 05:30 PM

Using Vegas 4.0, I find that as my project gets longer, more and more of my audio and music clips show "Peaks not available" on the time line. This makes it quite hard to match up scene transitions to the audio.

Firstly, why does this happen?

And second, how can I selectively force Vegas to rebuild and display the graphic wave form of the audio on the timeline?

Thanks.

Don Bloom · November 14th, 2003, 08:13 PM

When you get that message, is it when you first put the clip on the timeline?

I've had some fairly lengthy and complex audio and it takes a few seconds or even a minute or two to show peaks when I first put the clip on the TL. Once it's been there though, the peaks are always there. Perhaps you need to put your project on the TL in smaller bites OR give the audio a chance to catch up. There is a bar graph in the lower left corner of the screen to show the percentage that's converted.

Don

Kevin King · November 14th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Thanks Don. Actually, the missing peaks was from long .wav files (full length songs) that have been on the timeline for the past 4 days solid (not still loading into the timeline).

Still not sure why it happens, but I eventually found the solution. Under the "View" menu, at the very bottom is "Rebuild Audio Peaks". I selected this and I once again had graphical peaks in all the audio in my entire project.

Thanks for the help.

November 13th, 2003, 10:17 PM	#1504
Scott Osborne Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Rochester NY Posts: 116	Nice.......I also really want to know about the sound track....Do you have a version encoded for Dolby 5.1? Also did you just use a wav file or did you create that with a Audio sequencer app like Cubase or Logic Audio. I thought some of those instruments sounded a bit like some of the stuff in Reason 2.5...If you did create that from scatch, Many Many props! __________________ Scott Osborne Infinite Video Productions

November 14th, 2003, 07:24 AM	#1505
Dale Nicholson Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 133	Mixing n Matching software Decisions-decisions....Here's my problem: I will be using a dvx100 camera, shooting in either 24p or 24p advanced. That means my options for an NLE are limited. I'm leaning to either Vegas or Avid XPress Pro. It's my understanding that those are the only two NLE's that can handle 24p natively, correct? If that's the case, those are my two high end NLE options. Hypothetically, if I use Vegas to edit my 24p feature-length production, I want to be able to use software like AE or Combustion for effects or even another fancy effects title, then use an authoring program software. Two questions: 1) Is it okay to mix and match like that without losing quality in 24p--going from Vegas to AE to ??? I'd be curious how many of you mix and match and What You Use, especially you 24p people??? 2) I love the authoring potential of Vegas because of the 5.1 output possibility, but admire the more advanced motion menus, more professional higher-end software. I'm still a little confused--getting mixed messages--about what other authoring software will output to 5.1, using 24p, and without having to purchase another program. What will Vegas give me authoring, specifically, that Encore or ReelDVD won't??? Thank you for your thoughtful replies. Dale

November 14th, 2003, 08:34 AM	#1507
Erik Rangel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 125	David, is there any reason for me to keep the m2t files after i've converted them to CFHD, or can i delete them? E. oh yeah... editing with aspect hd is fun as all hell. Can't wait for the on the fly converting of m2t to cfhd though. __________________ Erik Rangel www.inthemind.com

November 14th, 2003, 11:22 AM	#1509
Erik Rangel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 125	Thanks David, I'm guessing that upgrade will be available for download... to versions that are activated. I haven't activated it yet because I just started editing my short yesterday. (first day trying out aspect hd) doubt i'll need the full thirty day trial before activation. I'd like to activate before pro version comes out so i can get the upgrade. Any guesstimation on when that might be? E. oh yeah, go ahead and quote me on your website:) __________________ Erik Rangel www.inthemind.com

November 14th, 2003, 05:30 PM	#1513
Kevin King Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 88	"Peaks Not Available" ??? Using Vegas 4.0, I find that as my project gets longer, more and more of my audio and music clips show "Peaks not available" on the time line. This makes it quite hard to match up scene transitions to the audio. Firstly, why does this happen? And second, how can I selectively force Vegas to rebuild and display the graphic wave form of the audio on the timeline? Thanks.

November 13th, 2003, 03:54 PM	#1501
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Dustin, Visually you don't lose anything. Mathematically this in not like Microcosm which is an excellent codec. Basically if you want 5 times the performance without visually degrading the image, the Aspect HD system is a good choice. Here is the Charlie White (digitalvideoediting.com) quote regarding Aspect HD's image quality: "The software performs beautifully, its clever codec so well-designed that I couldn't tell the quality difference between shots before they were edited and after." You can read the entire Charlie White review from the top link at this address http://www.cineform.com/news/.

November 13th, 2003, 08:49 PM	#1502
Josef Crow Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: new york, ny Posts: 66	thanks for the reply, David. 30 GB per hour is amazing. But how does the image stand up to being blown up (projected on HD or film)?? And would what format would be needed to edit straight in premiere or after effects (for things Aspect can't do). AVI? Huffyuv? or will premiere and aspect recognize Apects codec - that would be great for storage. ANd is cineform working on 24p solution as well? I mean, 24p 1080x720 should require less than 30 GB per hour - that's the Panny Varicam!!

November 13th, 2003, 09:10 PM	#1503
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	<<<-- Originally posted by Josef Crow : thanks for the reply, David. 30 GB per hour is amazing. But how does the image stand up to being blown up (projected on HD or film)??-->>> We have technology partners using our compression technology for theatre presentation. They say you just can't tell that it has been compressed. <<-- And would what format would be needed to edit straight in premiere or after effects (for things Aspect can't do). AVI? Huffyuv? or will premiere and aspect recognize Apects codec - that would be great for storage. -->> Aspect HD codec works in nearly everything on the PC (working on the last few things.) So you can currently import CFHD (the Aspect HD AVI format) straight into After Effects (we are finalizing an exporter version of CFHD for After Effects.) <<--ANd is cineform working on 24p solution as well? I mean, 24p 1080x720 should require less than 30 GB per hour - that's the Panny Varicam!! -->>> Yes we are working on 24p and 1920x1080 versions of the technology.

November 14th, 2003, 07:55 AM	#1506
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Final Cut Pro 4 also allows you to edit in 24p. By feature-length do you mean ~2 hours? (Are you nuts?!)

November 14th, 2003, 10:31 AM	#1508
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	<<<-- Originally posted by Erik Rangel : David, is there any reason for me to keep the m2t files after i've converted them to CFHD, or can i delete them? E. oh yeah... editing with aspect hd is fun as all hell. Can't wait for the on the fly converting of m2t to cfhd though. -->>> Thank you for this quote. :) You don't need to keep the m2t files around. The real-time convert is being finalized now, it took longer to do the last 10% than we expected, but the time spent in developement was worth it, that feature is extra cool.

November 14th, 2003, 11:37 AM	#1510
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	from EXPERIENCE: when you take sections of clips into another program for EFFECTS work render them out of Vegas as uncompressed avi or uncompressed QT.mov . then work on it in AE/combustion. then render out of AE/combustion as uncompressed. then drop uncompressed clip into Vegas TL ... AE/combustion cannot use the Vegas Dv codec. so they will default to use msDV codec. msDV codec does not read clips rendered with Vegas codec correctly and Vegas codec does not read clips rendered with msDV codec correctly. BOTH have no problem reading uncompressed correctly... mixing different dv codec's ( canopus, main concepts etc) they all work excellent provided you do NOT mix the rendered clips. once you mix em X codec will not read Y codec clips correctly - artifacts/levels/colors will be off slightly... working with uncompressed ( 4:4:4 color space) you'll find will give you a little better mask, rotoscoping, color correction, keying etc ( even if original was 4:1:1) .. " that can handle 24p natively" that only applys to 24pA .. if you want to get rid of normal pull - i don't think Vegas can do it , i know hi end avids can , combustion , AE can remove normal pull down but this is something you would do after you edit the project ...

November 14th, 2003, 11:58 AM	#1511
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Thanks Erik, The new CFCapture utility will be a free download to all registered users. The Premiere Pro version should be out by the end of the year. Erik, I always want to ask Aspect HD customers this question: What is the greatest number of layers and effects you applied and still got full real-time will no dropped frames? The companion question is how is your PC configured. (this probably should be in a new thread.)

November 14th, 2003, 12:17 PM	#1512
Dale Nicholson Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 133	<<By feature-length do you mean ~2 hours? (Are you nuts?!)>> In this business I'm either nuts or talented--depends what day of the week you ask me.

November 14th, 2003, 08:13 PM	#1514
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	When you get that message, is it when you first put the clip on the timeline? I've had some fairly lengthy and complex audio and it takes a few seconds or even a minute or two to show peaks when I first put the clip on the TL. Once it's been there though, the peaks are always there. Perhaps you need to put your project on the TL in smaller bites OR give the audio a chance to catch up. There is a bar graph in the lower left corner of the screen to show the percentage that's converted. Don

November 14th, 2003, 09:12 PM	#1515
Kevin King Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 88	Thanks Don. Actually, the missing peaks was from long .wav files (full length songs) that have been on the timeline for the past 4 days solid (not still loading into the timeline). Still not sure why it happens, but I eventually found the solution. Under the "View" menu, at the very bottom is "Rebuild Audio Peaks". I selected this and I once again had graphical peaks in all the audio in my entire project. Thanks for the help.