Need help with Vegas and FX1000 24p
 

I can’t seem to get Vegas to remove the 2:3 pulldown from the footage of the Sony FX1000. I have the box checked in prefs to remove the pulldown, but when I go to the 24p media properties, everthing is 60i. Shouldn’t it show where it removed the 2:3 pulldown? I not sure if I’m doing something wrong, the Camera is not adding the flags or Vegas is not recognizing the 24p footage.

Any thoughts?

This is HDV 24p....tried DV 24p, same results.
Vegas 8.0b on XP2

It sounds like you are expecting the capture utility to transcode at capture. As I understand it, your 24p, like mine with Canon HV20 material is laid down on a 60i stream. You still have to actually process it, to get it to a file that is 24p. Just because you drop that on a 24p timeline, or capture while a 24p project is open, doesn't mean that you will get 24p footage. You have to process that file to a new file to remove the pulldown.

With the Canon HV20, the "flags" to tell Vegas where or what to remove are not there, so I have to rely on another utility, Cineform NeoHDV to remove pulldown. It actually will do that during capture.

Vegas may be able to do it with FX1000 footage by render from the time line, assuming it can detect the proper frames.

Tim, to my way of thinking, and I could be wrong, but the preference setting you refer to is to "Allow pulldown removal". It doesn't say "detect 24p footage". I can see how you might expect that setting to cause Vegas to detect that the footage is 24p.

What I've done is to set the properties to 24p when starting the project.

This might be wrong, I don't know.

Yea Jeff, this is what I do too, but when I go to the media properties, I believe it should show that the removal has taken place, but it doesn't.

Have you tried to work with FX1000 24p footage with Vegas yet?

Tim, Chris is correct. I looked on page 66 of our manual and it says the images are converted to 60i format when being recorded. So there ends the mystery of why Vegas doesn't detect it as 24p footage.

I also found the following on amazon, info actually from Sony : "The 24p progressive scan signals are recorded to tape as 60i through means of 2:3 pull-down. This 2:3 sequence allows HDV material to be reverted to its original 24p form, as captured by the camera, using a compatible nonlinear editor. Similarly, a 30p signal is recorded as a 60i signal by dividing each frame into two fields. This approach allows 24p and 30p progressive footage to be played back or fed to an editing suite seamlessly."

I have tried to work with the footage that I shot at church the other day. The default settings for 24p with this camera are useless as they are. Motion is choppy, and pans have to be made extremely slowly to avoid choppiness and blurring.

First, I should say that 24p for me is relatively unimportant, but I want to learn to use it properly so that I can use it if I choose.

The shutter speed is automatically changed to 48 on my cam, which seems to be the cause of the choppiness. I left it as it was for the whole church service because I wanted to give a go for one entire event with the default settings.

I now know next time shutter speed needs to be put back to 60, but does that somehow defeat the purpose of the 24p setting? I don't know.

I'm going to hope more specific info come through this board on using the 24p feature properly.

Jeff:

1. 1/48 approximates a 180 degree shutter on a film camera, which is a common shooting setting. It is usually the best setting for shooting 24p, similar to using standard 1/60th for 30 FPS (60I) Shooting lower can actually reduce resolution, and shooting higher can actually add to the stutter and judder.

2. The 1/60th and 1/48th provide enough motion blur that the frames blend good together. If you shoot at a higher shutter speed, you start to add to choppiness. Some films do that on purpose- like the Private Ryan Normandy landing and other battle scenes.

3. Motion pictures films are shot at 24 frames per second, and the reason we use it is to try to give that film feel to your video. The judder that comes with it can sometimes be seen in films that have been made for many years.

4. As I said earlier any HDV 24p, is recorded in a 60i stream, and getting your footage actually processed to true 24p before editing will help you deal with the judder issues more effectively.

Chris thanks for the 24p primer!

Does the fact that the 24p footage from the FX1000 is recorded as 60i mean it is not true 24p?

I thought I had read before that the FX1000 does a decent job in 24p, but that it is still not true 24p.

How can it be processed at 24p before editing? I have Ultimate S, which does have a 24p process I've not used.

Edit: Chris I'm rendering out with ultimate s to 24p to see what happens.

I will answer this way. If you have a 24p film on a DVD, the DVD player has to add pulldown so it can be played on a 60i TV. It still shows the 24p film, with the 24p feel. That does not mean it is not true 24p. When you record in Sony or Canon 24p, you are recording true 24 progressive frames of video per second. However, since it has to be fit into the HDV conforming "legal" format 60 interlaced frames per second, pull down is added. Don't ask me exactly how its done, thats a long discussion, but the point is that pull down, if flagged properly, can be removed, by many NLEs, and even improperly flagged 24p (such as with HV20) can have pull down removed by programs like Cineform that have been designed to detect proper pull down removal sequences. The remaining frames are the true 24 fps progressive frames.

If you haven't tried Cineform, download their trial, and capture with HD link with pulldown removal

I will try out Cineform. I imagine Ultimate S 24p conversion process is much different than Cineform's.

BTW, that was an exceptional explanation of the 24p process as it applies here. Thank you.

Thanks Chris, so isn't Vegas one of these NLE's?

Jeff, have you tried to capture 24p with Vegas?

Yes, I did capture footage that was 24p, but I still had to set the properties to 24p. Where are you looking to see that the pulldown removal has been accomplished? In the properties area?

Your question is a good one about Vegas and whether it recognizes the pulldown removal flags. I wonder if Ultimate S 24p conversion accomplishes this with Vegas or if Cineform is the only way for us as Vegas users to achieve the pulldown removal?

Yes, in the media properties. I think it should show "Format" MPEG-2 (with 2:3 pulldown). Also it should show "frame rate" 23.976, "Field Order" progressive.

I watched a tutorial on this not to long ago, I'll try to find the link.

Edit: Jeff, when you say it's choppy and not smooth, is that on the Vegas timeline? If it is, I think it will be choppy if Vegas has not removed the pulldown and your project properties are set for 24p 23.976.

Actually as far as the choppiness is concerned it was choppy in the viewfinder...really bad on pans and with and dramatic motion by the subjects, even some not so dramatic movement by subject has noticeable choppiness.

As it is, it is not too useable for me. While I wanted the ability to do this, I'm not too hung up on it. For weddings it is definitely not something I will use, nor did I ever expect to use it for weddings, though I had hoped it was a possibility.

I think shooting 24p has a whole new learning curve to it.....slower pans etc. But, once mastered, the look is very pleasing. I wish I could judge this for myself. This was one capability of the 1000 I was looking forward to experimenting with.

Haven't figured that one out yet. Haven't seen any Vegas discussions.

Here is a link to Cineform that give you an idea how different cameras work. You can make deductions about different cameras from that.

HDLink Capture Settings

Looking at the Z7U, it looks like it does record a straight 24p file without adding pulldown. I assume that is because you can use it with the supplied CF recorder. The Z5 may do the same, and I wonder if by buying the CF recorder, you could do the same with your FX1000. I read somewhere that if you actually tape, pull down has to be added to transfer by firewire to meet HDV capture convention requirements.

You guys are the actual ground breakers here, as that camera is real new....

If you have somewhere to upload an m2t raw file shot in 24p that I can play with, I would see what I could do with it in Vegas and with Cineform.

Well I don't, but would a few seconds of footage be to large for email?

My smallest clip recorded in 24p with the FX1000 is 500mb. If I can post it (not for sure my server will accept clip that large) could you download it?

If you can/will I will try to post it.

Edit: Chris, my idea is ridiculous...way too large of a file. I'll try and find time to download a partial clip later and see if you're stiil interested in playing with it...thx, Jeff

This site has a free upload and download service, or at least it was free last time I looked. It is a bit of a pain to down load from, but for single situation like this, it could be fine. I have pretty fast download capability, so if you are game, I am.
You could send me the link by PM.

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

Ok, I'll check out the site!

Compare grabs from two render methods
 

Tim provided a small file for me to play with. Not much motion in it to check out the judder issues. Would be nice to have one with a bit more motion.

I am uploading two frame grabs showing difference from rendering the Vegas time line to an intermediate Cineform .avi file, the other from doing a direct conversion in HDLink of the file sent by Tim. It looks to me like rendering out to 24p in Vegas loses resolution, suggesting that Vegas does not really perform a pulldown removal, like Cineform does, but you be the judge.

Thanks Chris, sorry about the non-motion clip, smallest size I had. What about the media properties of that clip in Vegas, does it show the 2:3 pulldown?

No, it doesn't, and that is true of any 24p hdv file that I have worked with. The editor sees it as 29.97 HDV, because thats what it has to look like. The pulldown is intentionally added to make it look and work like HDV 29.97.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm just trying to understand this. I also tried DV 24p and it also doesn't show the pulldown removal in Vegas....should it?

Tim:

I actually never worked with SD DV 24p, which is what I assume you mean, having gotten into the 24p stuff in HDV. If I wanted to go 24p with my HDV cameras, I would still shoot HDV, convert, and then down rez in the edit. However, I understand that works along same lines, ie, that the pulldown can be removed in SD.

So we are on same page, when you 24p footage is in a 29.97 file, it still is supposed to look and act like 24p. Its just in that container with the added pulldown to facilitate playing on standard video. The reason we want to remove pull down is to allow us to avoid the problems that the added pulldown presents when we have to do transitions, color correcting, and otherwise cut the film.

This link is a great primer on this story:

Pulldown (a.k.a. 3:2 Pulldown) | Moviola ? Training for Avid, Apple & Adobe | Production & Post Production Rentals & Sales | Los Angeles, Hollywood, Burbank

Thanks for the good explaination Chris. The reason for starting this thread was to make sure the FX1000 was doing what it was supposed to be doing in 24p....inserting flags. When I captured some 24p footage, opened a 24p project and the 24p media didn't show the pulldown like the "video primer tutorial" (the link I posted) I started to wonder what was going on. Especially when the 24p footage looked really jerky on the timeline. I went ahead an rendered the stuttering 24p thinking it might look better when played back on DVD, but it didn't.

That jerkiness, etc., is something I saw in the viewfinder when I used the 24p settings Tim. I feel there must be a setting that should be changed, but I can't imagine what it would be.

Chris that large file won't even begin to upload to my host provider. I'm reluctant to sign up for the site you linked to, I hate to give my e-mail out to them due to possible spam that could result.

Tim, I see what you mean after watching the Vegas 24p tutorial.

It shows that after downloading footage that was recorded 24p, the clip properties (from within Vegas) should show progressive mode.

Just as you experienced, the footage I shot did not show up that way in Vegas.

I think the point there is that Vegas hasn't been updated to detect this camera's 24p, or it will have to be done with something like Cineform. In fact, I took Tim's clip, and converted it with Cineform, and it reported it as 24p after that in Vegas.

However, despite the fact that Vegas doesn't detect it, doesn't mean it is not there. You can still edit on a 29.97 time line.

Are you guys trying to add pull down in your renders ? That may be a problem.

Anyways, here is a link to a 24p file to give you a feel how it should look approximately. There is some jerkiness, as is standard for 24p.. Right click and save target as to down load, please.


http://www.makeyourfilm.net/downloads/24pTest.mp4

Chris, I wondered if the issue Tim alluded to might have to do with Vegas not yet being updated to handle m3t files that are 24p they way it might for SD 24p. It makes sense.

Your footage has a nice film look to it. I see the jerkiness you mention, and it is pretty much the same as what I have experienced with my cam.

It is clear that you have been studying/working with this issue for a while. Sadly, I cannot see purchasing Cineform. 24p would be strictly for fun for me, as I cannot see using it for weddings. Possibly corporate stuff, but the effect would not even be close to worth the cost from a business point of view.

I'm going to render out a wmv clip of my church footage and post, just for kicks.

Jeff and Tim:

I am using the FX1, and its Cineframe 24. It got a bad rap for not looking quite right for the film makers, but I have been using it with Cineform to get some results. Here is a clip I did today, testing it out with a 35mm adapter:

http://www.makeyourfilm.net/downloads/Adapterand24p.mp4

I am hoping the FX1000 24p will take it to a better level, if I get one some day.

I like it Chris. Has a REALLY nice look. It had me interested enought to want to hear the audio. Really great documentary feel you have going there.

Here is a wmv clip (144 MB) of portions of a Christmas concert. It was shot using FX-1000 with the Cinema Tone #1 preset and 24p, though as you know the footage has not been converted to progressive.

I like the look of that preset.

I am stone in love with the zoom of the camera.

The clips ends with scene of church with absolutely no lights but that from the candles the people are holding.

I should also remark that the onboard audio is quite good, IMO.

To play the clip you will need to Right click and save the clip, don't attempt to play directly from link as file is too large. After file is done downloading then play.

http://jeffharpervideo.com/Videos/wmv/ChurchDemo.wmv

Sorry guys, my DSL is to slow to view your clips.

I did contact Sony via email a few days ago about the 24p of the FX1000 and Vegas issue.....maybe I'll here back this year :)

Jeff, last night at the rehearsal, I used the HDV 30p mode of the 1000. It looks pretty good, no where near as jerky as the 24p. I may use it today at the wedding. I guess that will be a last minute decision, 60i or 30p.

Some say it's better to deinterlace 60i in post and others say it's better to shoot native progressive, I personaly do not know. You can do all the test you want at home, but untill you do it out in the field and complete the project, set back and look at it, you really cannot know.

Tim, to download the clips you should right click on them and save them. If you left click to play off of the links the won't play properly as the files are too large.

That's an idea you have with the 30p. I will shoot my next church event with that and see how it works out...thanks for the idea Tim.

Jeff I commented on the Church clip, on the other thread, but the shots actually do exhibit the 24p feel. Remember, just because pulldown is added to make it playable as a 60i HDV stream, does not mean it is actually changing the 24p cadence. It will still be there. We remove pulldown to facilitate editing and avoid some problems that can possibly occur in transitions, etc.

In the hand held crowd shot, you can also see some skewing from the rolling shutter, especially on the faster pans, but I thought feel of 24p was nice along with preset you chose.

Thanks for the feedback Chris. Yes on the handheld I was holding camera over my head and arm got tired so I lost control somewhat.

Thanks for clearing up that the video still maintains the 24p characteristics, I still am grappling with understanding the whole thing, but thanks to you it is gradually becoming clearer, I think!

Tim, I read the Wikepidia article on 24p and it it very enlightening and confirms much of what we are learning about this subject.

24p - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chris has covered this subject with us extremely well and accurately based on what I've read.

The article even mentions 30p vs 24p, so you are really on to something there!

Thanks Jeff, good read indeed. Your right, we owe Chris for explaining all this so well.

Well I shoot yesterday's wedding entirely in 30p. Shutter speed 60 for the ceremony and first part of the reception, untill the lights went off, then I switced to 30 shutter speed. I'll be sure and let you know how it turns out.

Yes Tim that will be VERY interesting.

This is the response I recieved from Sony support:

Hi Tim,

Thank you for contacting Sony Creative Software. Pulldown is the conversion of 24 fps footage to 30 fps. Adding pulldown would mean that you are converting the 24p footage to 30i.

However, in referring to the camera's specs, I see the following notes:

"In addition to 1080/60i recording, the HDR-FX1000 offers a 1080/24p and 1080/30p Progressive Scan mode that enables shooting with film-like results. Signals scanned at 24p/30p are converted to 60i (using 2-3 pulldown for 24p) and recorded on MiniDV tape, allowing footage to be played and edited using existing HDV products. In this way, progressive images can be handled in the conventional HDV editing environment."

HDR-FX1000 | HDR-FX1000 High Definition MiniDV (HDV) Handycam® Camcorder | Sony | SonyStyle USA

This would suggest that the pulldown is actually happening in the camera and not during capture or import.