Need tips on multi-angle orchestra concert filming with different camera types please

[Bryan Quarrie]

Hi all, it's been a very long time since I last frequented this forum :)

I have been filming orchestral concerts over the years using a range of different cameras - I'm a one-man crew.

So the scenario is that I've been called once again to film the concert at the Royal College of Music in London, UK. For those of us who know it, this is a hall that can seat up to about 500 people, and has windows on either side of it.

I recently reviewed the previous recording and wondered how it could've been shot differently, so here is a list of the cameras that I used on that gig:

1 x Sony AX700 (manned from the balcony at the back of the hall).
1 x Sony AX100 (shooting wide angle of the stage, positioned next to the AX700).
1 x Qoocam 3 Ultra 360 camera, (placed between the conductor and the 1st row of the orchestra).
1 x Qoocam 8k 360 camera (placed to the side of the organ at the back of the stage, and is used to get wide shots of the organist from the side and the bacjk of the musicians facing the audience).
1 x Qoocam 8k 360 camera (placed to the left side of the stage to get an alternative wide-angle shot).

Because I've used a combination of conventional and 360-style cameras in this scenario, I was wondering:

Regarding editing timing of the different shots, how often would you use shots from non-conventional cameras? Or better still, is it common to use these type of cameras in this sort of production? (It's something I've recently been experimenting with and the client seems happy with it, but I'm wondering if there other ways of using them for future productions).

I've tried to upload stills but unfortunately dvinfo isn't allowing me for some reason, so here is a link to one of the short pieces performed at the previous concert:

https://youtu.be/1yXbZ5yxK6c?si=JkFlhM54i3PKG5h_

Cheers,

Bryan

[Paul R Johnson]

I rather disliked the 360 degree camera - it gives a very 'security cam' viewpoint. I personally have noted lots of people now put a wide unmanned and the manned camera next to each other. To me, that's a waste. I also don't think the conductor cam is a flattering angle. I prefer to see his face, but favour a position just behind 1st violins, just over their heads, not too high, with the conductor set to the right of the frame. In your video, you did a good job of hiding the cameras, but the high angles made it look quite messy as there is so much floor in shot. The 360 cameras just look a bit artificial = not sure if it is the image or the distortion? I was surprised at the audio - sounded very unlike the sound in the room. There was one shot where the view was towards the auditorium and it looked very messy - players and audience all kind of crammed in?
I would on these types of shoot, find anybody to work a camera and movem them out to the other side of the wide angle and do the same with your manned camera. Brief them to change angles very quickly, and make sure focus is sharp quickly - no slow pans or zooms - you can do those. They get solid steady shots, and keep the blurry reframes and focus as short as they can. I've even done it where they have a simple listen only comms to you and if you are doing an arty pull out with a slow pan, you can just whisper move, when you are halfway through and you know when you run out of zoom, you can edit to their steady shot. Left to their own devices, they always have rubbish, when you get blocked or lose the subject and your edit has to use a cutaway or pointless fill.

I'm not convinced the 360 cams are as useful as we tend to think they are with an orchestra because there are too many people. With a 4 or 5 piece band they can give great fill shots - just difficult with orchestras or choirs.

[Bryan Quarrie]

Hi Paul - Thanks for your very concise response.

As I'm a one-man band I suppose I could get away with just using using fixed angles on the other cameras and just do punch-ins in the edit, and manually control one camera (A sort of "less is more" approach). I'll take into consideration what you said about the conductor shot - I understand that 360 cameras can be useful in certain scenarios (maybe not all) as I was experimenting with these gigs. Thanks for the inspiration.

Regarding the audio - I could use a Zoom recorder near the orchestra and blend its sound with what the microphone from the "master camera" is picking up (room ambience) to taste.


Again thanks for the feedback - It was definitely needed!

Bryan

[Pete Cofrancesco]

DJI pocket cameras have a normal field of view and better quality. I believe you can control them remotely. I only use 3 standard camcorders. 1. Wide orchestra, 2. manned soloist. 3. reverse angle conductor/audience. You won't get paid more with extra specialty cameras and it can be jarring the handful of times you cut to them because they don't match the other cameras.

[Paul R Johnson]

Ah - I see. I thought the audio was just something you were given? Recording orchestras and choirs is really hard, and the audio requirements are always directly wrong form video.At the very least, in that space, you need as a minimum a crossed pair - using one of the favourite techniques) above the conductors head. Which means stands, or in that space, flying them on a frame from a catenary. Stands, the usual method have to be in the middle and look awful, but sound good. Often, we are doing sound, video and lighting - and it's really important to sit down with the organisers and find out what is most important - sound or vision. Rarely can you get both done properly without higher budgets. For me - with pretty tight budgets, it's always one or the other.

They do recordings in that space all the time - nick previous recordists ideas!

Oddly - with a novice conductor, balance is often pretty odd - they normally 'play' the sections, dropping back the strings, pushing the brass, that kind of thing - but that guy seems rather er, ineffective. The leader and 1st violins rareky had any eye contact with hime and the lower strings seemed to ignore him. Their balance, that you captured was a bit wonky. A proper recording would have been smoother and a little better balanced, but they were fighting each other, section wise.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

With sound either I get a board feed if the venue took the effort to properly mic, if not I use a stereo pair of condensers back center of the auditorium.

The issue of putting a zoom record up near the orchestra is that the nearest instruments to the recorder will dominate that's why putting farther away is better. Of course the down side putting it in the back it will pickup audience sounds in quieter moments (coughing, etc)

The proper mic placement of high and above as Paul suggested requires the venue and directors permission if they will even want or allow. Most performances aren't going to go to the trouble and don't want you doing it.

[Bryan Quarrie]

Hi Paul & Pete,

Thanks for the additional feedback to this thread. There is a story behind this recording which is why it looks and sounds the way it does so here goes...:)

The organiser of the gig (the client) in renting the hall was told that the cost of hire didn't include a sound technician, so I had to use whichever recording source I had. (In the past I would use a Zoom H2n recorder and place it between the conductor and orchestra and set it to 4-channel mode (In XY position I think, I've since sold it for an H2essential recorder)).

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Paul, this is going to shock you but the audio used in this video were from the built-in 4 mics on the Qoocam 3 Ultra :). I tried to overdrive the mics on this camera awhile ago to see how it handles loud sounds, and I must admit it still sounds good!! As far as recording level control goes, it just has two settings - low and high (I think). Understandably though, the reason why it doesn't sound like how the room would sound is because of its position, which I couldn't do anything about because the hall staff were very funny regarding where we could place the equipment :(

(They did also have those hanging mics above the stage, but they weren't switched on for obvious reasons...Very sad indeed).

What you said about the budget resonated with me too. There's no way I could achieve even a mock version of a "Last Night At The Proms" result with either my setup or even the venues we play at (especially the cramped ones !! :D)

Finally regarding the orchestra itself they are are a mixture of amateur and professional musicians, which were formed last year as part of a community orchestra project for musicians of all skill levels. The male conductor was one of those individuals who was in this concert to gain more experience in conducting. I think this was his third time so kudos to him anyway regardless.
After watching the clip again, I see where you're coming from regarding the angle of the 1st strings compared to where the conductor is. Another thing to take home from this, thanks :)

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Pete, I was very curious about the DJI pocket camera when it came out. Another camera I could have used at the time which I had with me was the Sony RX0 mk2. How much of a difference in image quality is there between the two cameras? I'm very curious as they both have 1-inch type sensors apparently. Also is there overheating issues when recording for very long takes with the DJI?

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So regarding my seating position, I was placed on the front row of the balcony with my main camera and the wide stage camera near me, again because the staff were funny about camera positions as well (Initially I wanted to be placed on the ground level at the back of the hall).

I also was thinking of using a mirrorless camera to get some kind of depth of field for the conductor cam but the client is not a fan slightly de-focused backgrounds - She likes to see everything in the shot! :D

Thanks! :)

[Bryan Quarrie]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

DJI pocket cameras have a normal field of view and better quality. I believe you can control them remotely. I only use 3 standard camcorders. 1. Wide orchestra, 2. manned soloist. 3. reverse angle conductor/audience. You won't get paid more with extra specialty cameras and it can be jarring the handful of times you cut to them because they don't match the other cameras.

I like this setup - Less putting up and taking down. Thanks for the inspiration :)

[Paul R Johnson]

Soft focus is rarely appropriate for this kind of thing because the producer has no idea what the individual viewers want to see. If you play the cello, you're interested in seeing how they cope with tricky fingering, and perhaps with flute players they might be watching the changes in how they angle the instrument. So much to watch while listening. soft focus puts the onus on what you watch onto the producer - and they cannot know.

Even if you paid the venue for a sound op, that would be for the live event announcements and basic stuff - very rarely is audio recording something you would hand to a venue technician. It is very specialst.

Being honest - condenser mics always work to a degree. What is missing is the conventions and typical sound of the genre. Many excellent recording csan be made with minimal microphones, but they must be in the right place, and this depends on the space. The idea, of course is to match the stereo soundfield to what your front and centre wide shot reveals. What you are seeing must be replicated in the audio captured.

Lots of my stuff is from concernts in churches, and to a lesser degree, proper concert venues. These places have very specific acoustics and while concert halls often have dedicated points where you can tie off supporting cables - where people who regularly use the venue add their catenary cables, out of the video line of sight. Churches however, rarely offer this, and get really difficult about attaching things. A nightmare frequently. You have cables that need fixing because they are trip hazards, but they won't let you use tape, so you need to use the interlocking floor traps, that they then decide can trip people up. Welecome to my world.

[Bryan Quarrie]

I definitely can relate to this!!

I remember videoing a variety show at Hoxton Hall, Hackney. I wanted to attach a small camera above the stage but on the front edge of their balcony, but can’t gaffer-tape it there because it’s a Victorian listed building which I appreciate. Good thing is that situations like that makes me come up with different ways of getting this task done…😀

[Paul R Johnson]

i always carry some purple rigging slings - nice and soft fabric, loops at the end and you can put them over beams, or around pillars - they don't damage and are easy to use. I've got a lot of aircraft style wire that's quite flexible, and a simple trick is to put a small pulley onto one of the slings when attached to the building and then bring the cable down to floor level, and use weights. Again, I just 'borrow' theatrical stage weights, that put the tension on the cable.

Stands are possible too, if they will let you put them in the right place and I use the wind up types that will take a mic array up to about 6m. The people I record though, often drive you mad. You do a perfect rehearsal, and then you hear somebody say "When you do your solo, will there be space to squeeze through there?" and point to a place nobody has mentioned, and where the mics already in situ will be useless. I always happens. They don't seem to ever plan these things. I had a job to record a small choir (consort) in a rather fine sounding church. Nobody mentioned two of the pieces would be starting at one end and progressing to the church tower, were they would sing a hymn of dedication to the new bells. As in they would be singing BEHIND the audience. Amateur orchestras often have balance and blend issues, but once you hear them, you can add in spot mics for the weaker components.