Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi Noa,

You are right, we all live in a different part of the world and are faced with different sets of challenges. That is the exact reason why I think it is rather pointless to try and argue about business concepts. It is very easy for some people to knock on other people's ideas and say that they "don't make any business sense" simply because it doesn't apply to THEIR OWN personal situation.

Every single time there is a discussion about business approach, there will always be someone that needs to come out with the "good for you" or "too bad for you" comment. And that can come from any side. Can't we just stay open-minded and share ideas and concepts and take them as they are without judging each other's business model? If there is something interesting we can take from certain ideas, then it's absolutely great. But if some of them don't apply to you, then just leave it.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi Guys

Again a sensible and practical explanation from the great Don Bloom. A few weddings Don?? Yeah right ..you must be well over the 2000 mark by now and still threatening to give them up next year.

Quite correct this topic has drifted way off course and now has become a heated debate between the high end shooters and the low end shooters and little has been said about actual IQ which is what the original post was about in the first place.

Simple answer?? Brides have no idea what resolution is and videos a few years back that I have reluctantly submitted to brides where I was definately not happy with IQ (tons of back lighting, awful venue for speeches, no space and it all goes on and on) I expected some serious complaints but the bride was over-joyed with her video and "cried the 10 times I watched it" ..She also referred me to two new clients ..thankfully that was my only bummer for the year!!

Conclusion? Give them good content and stay in focus and they will love you for it regardless of the IQ!!

Chris

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Agreed Chris. IQ is irrelevant to brides. I did, however see a great presentation by Michael Wong at Infocus in 2012 about removing distractions from your edit. I think we can engage our audience more, whether it be short or long form if we remove distractions like color balance issues, shake, messy backgrounds, etc. We are attempting to do this and not always succesful. I think those distractions can take away from the impact but as far as resolution, pixel depth, dynamic range, they don't know and they don't care. Show them a story. Don't spend(and I have to keep telling myself this) $6500 on a C100 just to get more dynamic range. It won't make you more money. I do rely on my mkIIIs high ISO to make things easier on me. I don't have to worry as much about darkness, and I remove at least a little bit of the headache in post. Although we disagree about markets, we agree about IQ. Doesn't matter.
Bill

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

As I've said for years. No matter the style of product (I am talking only about weddings) if you give solid stable, well composed properly exposed footage you're golden. IOW get the real shot first then play with your dutch angles, filmic look, reality TV shaky look, sliders gliders and steadicams. It's all good but if you don't have the ONE solid steady well composed properly exposed shot and all the other stuff looks like crap (pardon the expression) you're stuck. Remember you can't edit what you don't have. Style doesn't matter if you haven't got quality. Please keep in mind that we ALL have used shots that have less quality but have a high value but that might be 1 or 2 shots in any given wedding or it might be none for 20 weddings and then we get zapped with 10 in a row where we need to decide, high value and less quality or nothing at all. I would be surprised if too many of our clients noticed the slightly shaky or slightly out of focus BANG shot that we used for a total of 3 or 4 seconds. they see the shot, we see the shakiness, or the slightly out of focusness (is that a word?) or the slight discoloration...sometimes we worry too much about the technical end and forget we're there to capture the events of the day first and foremost.
Chris, YES....This is my last year doing weddings. I'm already doing more other types of work than I have in the past few years (gotta make that HM700 pay for itself) and I'm loving it. Promos, webamercials, legacy videos...heck I just listed my PDs on Ebay. I feel like 2 of my old friends have died but...Anyway, yes, this is it!

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Perhaps I am mistaken in thinking that the thread topic was quite clear, but I am certainly not trying to get a message across, rather setting a question I had for general discussion and opinion. i don't want to continually come back to the same point, but it was basically that in the quest for higher and higher technical quality and incredible artistic interpretation, are we missing the fact that 80% of all weddings don't have a videographer at all because they can't afford it or don't like what they see. Is this killing the market in some ways by putting the wedding video out of reach of many people?

Roger

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

********************Perhaps I am mistaken in thinking that the thread topic was quite clear, but I am certainly not trying to get a message across, rather setting a question I had for general discussion and opinion. i don't want to continually come back to the same point, but it was basically that in the quest for higher and higher technical quality and incredible artistic interpretation, are we missing the fact that 80% of all weddings don't have a videographer at all because they can't afford it or don't like what they see. Is this killing the market in some ways by putting the wedding video out of reach of many people?******************************

Roger, I'm not sure what we are supposed to feel from this 80% statistic? When i was doing weddings I had more business then I desired and that statistic was the same or worse. 20% of the market is huge. On the other hand the reason photographers have that 80% is their market is more saturated with budget vendors. Much more than the video market. Who gives a crap if only 20% of brides get wedding video as long as I have all the business I need? If someone was really dumb enough to care about that statistic, you would hope they would be dumb enough to remedy the situation by switching to photography. You could get in a lot cheaper and immediately be a part of that 80%.

The problem for most wedding videographers is that that they follow trends rather than set their own model. I got out of weddings in 2004. Living in New Orleans a typical ceremony last 40 minutes, or 1 hour for Catholic. A reception is a maximum of 3 hours. I would typically get back to my studio with a max of 2 1/2 hours of footage. I know you guys spend way more time and shoot much more raw footage. For me the thinking was if you shoot it, you have to deal with it in post. I din't wan't that. I know you guys hate to put your coveted prices out but I'll tell you what mine was. I shot single camera ceremony and reception for $1500. This is 2004 and before. In my market there were 2 videographers that were higher, one was very good the other just had a slick marketing plan. But for all the rest, and there were many, those were the multi-camera, brides house, love story, you name it all included in a much lower price. Granted , I offered these things but at substantial extra cost. about 50% of my clients took the add ons and I wish they wouldn't have. The added time and expense didn't do much for my bottom line nor my quality of life. Quality of life is something else usually not factored in. I actually made more money with the straight up $1500 shoot and had far more time to pursue other projects, like my girlfriend.

I'm not sure if you guys still do this, but do you remember when wedding videographers would put the titles for the whole wedding party in the video? Well I do, and I remember the day I quit, everybody in my local association said brides wouldn't go for it. Once i started charging $200 bucks for it, nobody missed it. And I got no backlash about it.

I shot a wedding last Saturday for a friend of a friend of a friend. At my 2004 price of $1500 for 1 camera. I captured it on Sunday night (Sony EX1r) and they are picking it up this evening. The will get the edit plus the raw footage. When I say that I mean they own it from that point. I don't want to keep raw footage , masters or anything else. I wipe my drive afterwards. I know that's not typical, but HAPPY IS HAPPY RIGHT?

So 20% is a huge market, it's just a matter of where you want to be. Create your own space in that market, stop following trends, consider your bottom line and how it relates to your quality of life.
Al

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

How many of those 80% wouldn't have a video at any price because their impression of what a wedding video is has been so coloured by what they have seen in the past. By the way I am pretty sure that 20% of weddings in the UK don't have a video. Friends who just do photography tell me it's less then 10%. We have to ask ourselves why the vast majority of traditional weddings where the bride has a big white dress & the groom hires a suit will have a professional photographer but won't have videographer & it's not because they can't afford it.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

I think it's an interesting question, but I think you are oversimplifying the answer. From my
experience there are many reasons brides ignore the wedding video. Price is the reason for
some and not liking what they see for others. But there are many other reasons. And many
brides don't even think of wedding video. I looked at the 'to do' list from several wedding
planners. Things like when to buy the dress, hire a photographer, rent the site, get a DJ,
find your caterer, and so on. Less than 30% of the coordinators I surveyed even mentioned
a videographer. So not only do we have work to do to even get in the brides conscious thoughts,
but to be in the thoughts of the events planners. I have tried to make friends with as many vendors
as possible. Almost every one of the few weddings I do get, is because of a referral from the
photographer, DJ, or event planner that I have made friends with. It helps coaching youth sports
as I've had all their kids on my teams :-)

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Gabe,
I think that's a great point. We need to be on the mind of the wedding planners and the brides. We need to make sure the planners can use our video to sell themselves to future clients and thus help them out. Our marketing is one of awareness and not necessarily pushing what we do. That 80% is an awesome target market. Don't target the 20% target the 80%
Bill

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

[QUOTE=Gabe Strong;1785520]I think it's an interesting question, but I think you are oversimplifying the answer. From my
experience there are many reasons brides ignore the wedding video. Price is the reason for
some and not liking what they see for others. But there are many other reasons. And many
brides don't even think of wedding video. I looked at the 'to do' list from several wedding
planners. Things like when to buy the dress, hire a photographer, rent the site, get a DJ,
find your caterer, and so on. Less than 30% of the coordinators I surveyed even mentioned
a videographer. So not only do we have work to do to even get in the brides conscious thoughts,
but to be in the thoughts of the events planners. I have tried to make friends with as many vendors
as possible. Almost every one of the few weddings I do get, is because of a referral from the
photographer, DJ, or event planner that I have made friends with. It helps coaching youth sports
as I've had all their kids on my teams :-)[/QUOTE

Gabe,
While networking is a good approach it's only a small part. You have to build your own business and make a name for yourself, just like the people you want to network with. It didn't just happen for them either. In your words you say the "few weddings that you get" as if it weren't for others you wouldn't have any. Let's say you've done a few weddings. Then you already have the best referral system in the world. Usually when I do one bride, I do her friends, relatives and the like. You do a good job for them and they advertise for you. I have done entire wedding parties. Why is that not working for you? You have no one to blame.

If you are at the same wedding as a given photographer that means you guys are already fishing in the same pond. But yet you need him to bait your hook? Why? All these percentages are crap, it has nothing to do with you.

It pays to be professional, quality certainly pays, but above all it pays to be friendly, likable. Who wants to work with someone they don't have a feel for. I built many extremely close relationships with clients. I've been invited to parties and BBQ's long after the wedding is over.

I also know there were brides who came to me sometimes and I knew instantly I didn't want to work with them. So I guess they feel that way at times too.

And for those who think the economy is hurting your business, statistics actually show that there are more weddings in hard times then good. Consolidation becomes a good idea.
If you want to spend time sucking up to photographers and others so be it, but it could be better spent improving the totality of your own business.

Building a wedding business is not the rocket science some seem to portray it as. Good work and satisfied clients will bring other clients ten fold.

Al

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

I don't see why you should think all these percentages are crap! Nigel has stated that the figures in the UK may suggest that only 10% of weddings have a videographer. I'm not trying to give answers, just stimulate open debate, but if you are running a business and 80-90% of the market is not interested in your product then we all have an image problem.

As I have said several times in this thread, I am looking at my best year ever, but if more video companies are looking at sharing that small and possibly shrinking market, then I am interested in what I can do about it. I have already taken steps in my own business to get a greater share of the wedding market and increasing the percentage in my favour. That means offering something new and thinking a little laterally, both to increase the return and outsell the opposition.

For those that are perfectly satisfied to continue what they are already doing, then great, but I am not convinced that the wedding video market generally is particularly healthy at the moment. If less people have a video, then the less people will see it as a requirement.

Roger

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi Roger

Percentages will vary all over the world...In Perth we have a HUGE following of marriage celebrants so a massive number of weddings are conducted privately in a back yard or public park...there are no "registry offices" here so a big majority of weddings won't even make news! (My very own 2nd wedding was at a friend's house with family only and from the street it would have seemed nothing was going on)
We have over 1200 registered celebrants here that do marriages constantly that we never even see.

The figures for 2009 in our state was 11,000 for the year! Divide that my probably 20 at best videographers doing 30 -40 weddings a year and the percentage is tiny and on analysis seems not worth the effort to even do weddings. Yet, like you, I'm busy (I do around 35 per season which is all I want to do!) and I'm sure others do much the same and we are all happy with business.

Chris

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

I will only speak for myself since everyone has a different approach but to me, as long as I get the bookings that I want, I don't see the need to try and make my service accessible to the entire population. I seek quality and take pride in what I do because it is what I'm passionate about and what keeps me fulfilled. I want to attract couples who value my work and hire me because they care about their films as much as I do.

Is my service something that most people can afford? Probably not. But in a world where the majority of the population would look for discounts on Ebay and eat at McDonald's, there will still be a sustainable percentage of people who shop at Louis Vuitton, drive luxurious cars and enjoy fine dining. I only need to make sure that they are aware that I exist and that my work is appealing enough for them to consider my service when they get married.

If other companies around me would rather shoot lower end weddings and cater to the 80%, I'm happy with that too. Because it means that I have less competitors to worry about when selling my service to my target brides. I also don't limit myself to local brides only. I try to market myself internationally and would gladly accept commissions anywhere in the world as long as couples are willing to fly me over to shoot their wedding.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Long,
That's what I'm saying. Carve your own space. Your strategy makes perfect sense.
Al

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Al,

So since I live in a small, remote town in Alaska (no road access, only way in or out is
by airplane or boat), the value of your referral system only goes so far. In fact I am
actually the only full time video production company in town. I have a little competition
from some weekend warriors, but they are doing it for extra spending money as they have
other full time jobs and I don't try to compete with their prices as I'm in a whole different
situation. Thus I get a very large percentage of the local weddings in which the bride
wants a video. Many however don't even think about doing video for whatever reason.
But they almost all hire a wedding photographer. This is where 'sucking up' to
photographers and wedding planners helps. See, I can't close a deal in which a bride
never even calls because she doesn't think of doing video. But as she is making wedding
plans with other vendors it helps if other vendors mention your service, now the bride becomes
aware and thinks about the possibility of doing video. Also, I would guess that maybe 75% of the
weddings here are tourist 'destination' type weddings. Those almost always are going through
one of the local wedding planners or such. For example one owns a B&B and couples book
her as a place to stay for the night after they get married by her. So she is a good person
to know as she will get me more work than referrals from happy brides in my town will.
The entire population of our town is less than the number of tourists that visit here in
one day in the summer. I do have a website so far I get 1 or 2 weddings a year where a
bride finds me online and calls to hire me as she is planning her destination wedding.

When I started my video business about 11 years ago, there were 4 or 5 other video companies.
They have folded or moved down south. The local PBS TV station manager who has ran the
TV station in town for a long as I can remember (and gave me my first job out of college)
told me that I am the longest lasting video production company that he has ever seen here,
I must not be making the most horrible business decisions ever.....

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

This is a very interesting debate. And something I really need to think hard about to be honest.

Im with 'Long Truong' here wanting clients that VALUE my work for it's creativity & story because im passionate about being creative.

Problem is, if I want to make this my day job and source of primary income. I need to cater to everybody ... I have had family tell me the same also. Saying you need to consider lowering prices and offering to shoot films doc style where you simply keep the camera still. Record things as it happens and may be inbetween the moments capture one or two creative shots if possible to throw in to the mix.

I have also had family criticize my existing work saying they don't understand the value of my 'creativity' questioning why this is out of focus, or why that is out of focus. The family that have said that are my grandparents and the older folks. The younger generation love the new 'film style' craze.

I still believe the market has completely changed since pro's had access to the likes of the Canon 5D MK2 with it's large sensor. OR everybody would still be offering documentary style films.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

@Long- i don't disagree in any way with your method of working or your point that there will always be those who will pay more for the highest quality. I am not trying to persuade anyone to change their way of working or to only take bookings from the 80% who wouldn't otherwise bother. Rather I would like to raise the profile of wedding video generally so that 100% of the potential market are seriously considering it. You and others would still carry on filming for the same type of clients, but there would be less chance of Video being seen as an expensive niche market if there was more choice available across the board.

@James -documentary style doesn't mean keeping the camera still or not using imaginative shots, it is more about capturing the day as it unfolds, rather than with carefully arranged shots or manipulating situations for the camera. Personally I think that it takes as much skill and experience to capture doc style well, as it does to produce artistic and cinematic styles. Doc style tends to use less equipment and needs the videographer to be able to work very quickly and efficiently, and have the confidence and skill to know how to get the shot whatever the situation.

Roger

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

In the UK marriage has actually been in steady decline over the last thirty years. The peak was in 1972 when there were 426K & numbers declined year on year till 2009 when there were only 231K. There was admittedly a slight increase to 241K in 2010 which is the most recent year where the statistics are available. The decline in numbers is despite the rising population so the incidence of marriage is actually declining even faster Marriage rates in the UK | News | guardian.co.uk

What is even more dramatic than the decline in overall marriage numbers is the decline in church weddings since the introduction of the 1994 Marriage Act which permitted venues other than register offices to hold civil wedding ceremonies. Twenty years ago over 50% of all weddings were religious ceremonies now it's about 30%.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

James, I can't speak for the UK but I promise you that here in the USA there are far more people doing doco style than cine style but in reality most are doing some sort of combination style. Doc with some cine thrown in at certain areas of the video; IE Prep, photo shoot, highlight. I'll also state that shooting doc style has not hindered my ability to garner business over the last 30 years and it certainly hasn't hindered my income or creativity when I need to add it in. Don't knock the style, it paved the way for cinematic style wedding videographers and that is what we are isn't it?
Style and quality have nothing to do with one another. You can do doc style and do a lousy job of it as easily as you can muck up a "cinematic" style job and as was said before, doc style doesn't necessarily mean 1 camera although for many of us that is how we learned and for the better. I still to this day shoot as if I have the only camera running even if I'm using 2, 3 or more. Things can happen to the other if they're unmanned so why chance it. Shoot like there are no other camera and you will always get good footage, so quality shouldn't be an issue. Now it becomes style.
Different strokes for different folks.
BTW again as I've stated, over the last 30 years taking all the numbers in, good years, not so good years...I've averaged about 50 weddings a year and have had years years that were way more than that. None of the number coincided with the economy. GOOD economy, BAD economy, it didn't make a difference. People still got married and I still did my share.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Completely off topic Don.

But doing 50 weddings let alone more scares me to death. So I have to hand it to you - bravo!

It takes me a good two-three weeks to produce a Cinematic style film. Because I usually finish a first draft myself, which I re-visit after a while when my mind if fresh with new ideas.

How long are you spending on average to produce a doc style film for your client?

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi Roger,

I understand what you mean and I am not trying to persuade anyone to change their ways either. I also don't want to start offering cheaper packages and attract budget conscious brides because I have enough work at the moment to keep doing what I do the way I enjoy it. The truth is, if most brides would value my work and pay for my service for what it's worth, I would gladly shoot any wedding. However, not everyone does and it seems like only the more fortunate ones or the ones who really care would hire me. But as long as I still have enough business, I can't complain too much.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi James,

I think it is important to have a clear mindset about what we wish to accomplish and where we want our business to be. If I want to offer a specific type of service and attract a specific type of clients, I want to make sure that my entire business model and marketing strategy go in the same direction.

To go back to my initial analogy, I can't open a fine dining restaurant and then offer hot dogs on my menu or have ugly decorations and dirty dishes. Everything has to make sense together for it to work. My films have to be good, my packaging needs to be nice, my website and business cards need to be well-designed and when I approach my clients I need to be confident about the value of my product and service too.

It's not about being superficial and trying to trick clients into buying my product. It's about making sure I don't confuse them and allowing them to know exactly what type of experience they are getting involved in if they ever hire me.

Now if you want to go full blown documentary like Chris Harding or Don Bloom because that's what your style is about, then by all means go for it. But make sure your brides are aware of it and know what to expect from you as well.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

James,
When I did do cine style I would spend about 50 to 60 hours on the edit. Anymore than that and frankly IMO it was too ling if you figured out dollar per hour. I didn't rush it, I just knew what I wanted it to look like in my head before I started editing it. Didn't always work and then I would redo the edit before it left my hands and got to the client but in many if not most cases it worked and I never had any complaints so I guess it was OK.
Doc style, I spend about 20 hours for edit. Sometimes a bit less, but keep in mind that very little is cut from the ceremony. Full Mass Catholic ceremonys that run about an hour in real time might be 45 minutes in video time, cut the air, cut the communion of the masses (no one wants to see 200 people go up for communion). I generally have between 3.5 and 4.5 hours total footage including B camera at the ceremony and obviously a bit more when I have 3 or 4 cameras going at the ceremony. Receptions are all done with 1 camera. Have there been times I wish I had 2 or 3? Sure but by and large I have done just fine with 1.
I've done well over 60 in some years and this year (my last in weddings) I'll end up with 20. I know guys around here that would kill to do 20, for me, it's a bad bad year. Except for the fact that it was my choice to keep it at 20. I'm doing enough other work to keep the money coming in and have had about all I can take with weddings. At some point in time, everyone reaches that place and I did about 4 years ago but finally decided now is the time. I'll let the young guys take the weddings from now on. Hell, this last week alone I passed on 3 for the end of this year. I guess I'm finally serious about it! ;-)

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

I call photographer BS. This is a way for them to claim superiority. If anything I've noticed a trend for the weddings where the couple took a short cut with photo because there are so many pseudo-photographers out there with a $600 camera.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

You say you deliver 45 minutes of video to your customers, just for a Catholic ceremonys and than the rest on top of it?

Good Lord! How long are your films?

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

@Craig- these are photographers that I have have regularly worked with for years, and who happily recommend me to their own clients, so I have no reason to doubt them. It's also born out by a definite drop in the number of video companies advertising and the fact that wedding shows that I attend that used to have several, now just have me. All good for me of course :-)

@James- my documentary style weddings would be similar to Don's for editing, I usually allow 3 days for a wedding, 1 to film and 2 to edit, although I have edited in one long day.

@Frank- I would agree with Don, as the majority of my Docu style weddings would be beteen 90-120 minutes.

@Long- I have no interest in your financial arragements as it is none of mine or anyone else's business, but I would be interested to know how much time you would spend in total on one of your weddings, including customer liason, filming, editing and delivering. Also how many you would typically take on in a year and what ammoun of your total income would be from weddings. Hopefully relevant questions to your style of working.

Roger

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Frank,
A doc style Full Mass Catholic wedding with all the trimming generally will be in total length between 90 and 120 minutes. Most people will watch it once full thru then after that start skipping thru chapters. I usually have about 14 to 18 chapters most of which come in the reception so everything is broken down and they can get to anywhere they want easily.
While it's not the 30 minute edit I did back in the 90s and early 2000's it seems to be what the market demanded and frankly while the money per job is less than a cinematic edit, it is far easier to market, far easier to edit and far less hard on my mental state.

Roger,
we come from the same mold or is it mouldy? lol...Anyway, yep, 2 days of actual edit time although sometimes I stretch it to 2 1/2 just so I can get off the computer earlier on a particular day and I too have done it in one loooooonnnnnng day but I vowed not to do that anymore. My eyes almost fell out of my head the last time I did that but it was a wedding of a member of the armed forces and he was leaving within the week of the wedding (hmmmm, I did the same) so I did what I had to do so that the couple would have it before he left.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi Roger,

I usually conduct at least 3 meetings with my couples. The 1st one to meet and connect with them, the 2nd one to sign the contract and the 3rd about a week before their wedding to go over the schedule and collect final payments. I would sometimes go out for a drink with them in between but those are unofficial meetings so I don't really count them as work hours.

I usually spend about 10-15h on the wedding day to cover the event.

Editing time, it depends what they pick in their package but a typical 15-30min short form film normally takes me around 30-40h to edit at my current speed but I can probably work faster if I push myself harder.

As we speak today, I can sign about 10-20 weddings a year and not have to worry about finance. My goal is to eventually raise my price high enough so I can bring it down to 5-10 and then either take it easy with the family or try to work on other non-wedding projects. But I've still got a lot of work to do before I get there.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Wow - never thought that.

I don't do weddings, except for friends and family.
Having said that, I have done 2 so far - on for my brother in law and one for my girlfriends best friend - and I have no appetite to do more of them, to be honest.

The "long" versions of them are around 20 minutes (I also did condensed 5 minutes versions of them).
And that includes dressing, make-up, hair do, registry, church and the whole party.
LOL, I must sound like a heretic to you guys. But hey, whatever floats your (and their) boat. I just never thought that there is a market for that long weeding films.

And yeah, a 120 minute catholic ceremony would be real hard for my mental state ;-)

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

@Long - thanks for the info, I find it very interesting the way that people carry out their business in totally different ways to others in the same business.

@Don - strangely, the wedding that I edited in a day was for a UK soldier and his new bride, as he was flying off on a tour of duty a few days after the wedding! I needed a few day off to recover afterwards :-) i must say that I still enjoy filming weddings and have no plans to give up any time soon unless death intervenes!

Roger

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

I would love to work like this.

Sounds like a dream job/way of income for me.

Sadly the reality for me is. An initial consultation if they live within 100miles. Emails back & forth or telephone conversations.

Arriving on the day. Doing my bit. Providing them with the film.

No multiple consultations, no drinks inbetween and not really friends with them afterwards either, I just try to leave them very happy with what they received from me.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Frank,
Not a 120 minute ceremony. I've done ethnic weddings that have lasted that long but a typical Catholic Full Mass is about an hour. the edited version including the prep, preceremony B footage, ceremony, photo shoot, reception and highlight is no more than 120 minutes.

Roger,
I used to feel that way but the last few years have been very hard on me physically and mentally and each year I said would be my last....Ha, sure. well this year is my last for the weddings but I still enjoy shooting so I went out and found some new corporate type clients and even some new AV work (fairly easy, good money) so I'm into another chapter. At 66 years old I want to spend more time doing things I really enjoy like taking more cruises and getting back to playing golf. (I should amend that to attempting to play golf. Something I love to hate) I look at it this way. When I retire from weddings, that opens up a spot for someone else! ;-)

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Don, bit off topic here, but I am also 66, having spent my life from 16 onwards until today in audio performing and production, and the last 27 years with video as well, although these days virtually all of my income is through wedding video. My wife is also a superb videographer and editor, so we can take on more than one video per day if required, or second operator. As she is also considerably younger than me, she fully intends to keep it all going even if I eventually get fed up. The way I work and the style of video, gives me the time to indulge the other things that I enjoy, such as sailplane flying, sailing and playing my music. My wife is trying to persuade me to let her do all the editing so that I can fly more, but I still enjoy the video work too much :-)

Roger

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi Roger

I'm 66 too so it seems like it's a good age to be doing weddings...we don't stress, we have fun and we also have plenty of time for ourselves. A good balance between work time and leisure time is critical!

I wouldn't worry about thread deviation as it went way off course way back on the first page and I'm still puzzled about whether anyone actually gave a straight answer or were they too busy preparing for another bout of fisticuffs??

Seems like us oldies have developed the right formula?

Chris

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi Don,

Actually I'm editing a Catholic Ceremony that sits at 1 hour 45 mins on my timeline from Bridal entrance to the couple leaving. I offer uncut Ceremony for Disk 2 so got to edit it all, though I'm sure the couple will prefer a cut down for the Main Video. What I did want to ask, and slightly off topic was how you're venturing into Corporate work. Something I'm looking to expand into myself, so'd appreciate any tips on how you're handling this side of your business.

Steve

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Chris and Roger...between us we seem to be qualified for the "wedding videographers old peoples home"
--all we need is 3 nurses and 3 power chairs. Hook up a steadicam arm to the chair and we're off to the races! ;-)
Seriously, we've been around the block and Chris as you know I've been saying I was going to stop doing weddings a few years ago and this year really is the year. I feel good about my decision so I'm sticking to my guns on it.

STEVE.........WOW! an hour and 45 minutes for a ceremony. I think I'd stick a fork in my eye! ;-) I'm sorry but that to me is an officiant that just likes to ramble on and hear themselves talk. Maybe I'm wrong but....
Anyway as to getting back to corporate stuff, I used to do a lot of it before. This time I simply contacted about 400 different businesses mostly small to medium size, introduced myself to them via email and a snail mail piece, sent them to my site, the usual marketing kind of thing, got enough replies to make it worthwhile, did enough face to face meetings to throw around ideas and get enough information to be able to price out a promo or webamercial and from that am getting enough business to make it work. More is coming thru in the form of legacy videos. My wife and her sister started a business doing those and are hiring me to do the work.
So a little of this, a little of that, throw in a sprinkle of the other and the business is good. Plus I still do AV work for certain AV companies in the area as well as certain hotels.
Trying not to keep all my eggs in one basket...someone knocks that basket over, you have scrambled eggs!

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi Steve,

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on your question to Don, but as I am also in the UK I thought I would add my voice even though we are a bit off topic still.

I have carried out a fair bit of corporate work over the years and still do occasionally, including Tesco, Asda, HL Foods and various other assorted companies. I spent some time sending out letters and leaflets to some of the bigger chains such as Tesco, offering my services at a local level, which yielded some results. Interestingly I have also picked up quite a lot of small corporate work just by talking to people at weddings, especially those families with members who are in business themselves.

What I have found is that once a company has used you successfully, they will come back again, often regularly. The other good area to follow up, is with PR companies, who will often be handling promotion and publicity across the board for a whole range of client businesses.

Roger

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

Hi Chris,

The thread didn't go way off course. The answers to the initial questions have been given time and time again through the entire discussion.

The only thing is that some people have different definition of what "quality" actually means to them. For some, having a well-composed shot with good focus and capturing the essential content is enough and for some other, it is more than that.

And then comes the question about what is actually "enough" and what is "too much". All of that will be different depending on your own expectations and what your clients expect from you.

It is clear that with all the different approach we have here, all these definitions will be different because we don't value the same thing and our clients don't either.

As Roger had said it, it's quite interesting to exchange ideas and opinions because we all have a different approach to our business. Whether you have been in the industry for XX years or not, as long as you have found a formula that works for you and makes you happy, that's all that matters. But if someone is struggling and asking for help, then we are all free to chip in and provide suggestions. It is up to that person to gather all the information and decide for themselves which ones they want to keep and which one they want to ignore.

It only gets uninteresting when people start criticizing others or try to show that their way of doing things "make more sense". Sometimes, we have to understand that what's important to us can be completely meaningless to others.

Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
 

+1 :-)

Roger