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Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Noa,
I don't know you nor have I ever been to your country, but if they have money to spend on photo then they have it to spend on video. You just have to find a way to motivate them. The fact that most people don't do it is a marketing advantage. Is it so different in Russia where Oleg Koleyn is killing it? I think the difference is motivation and not geography. If your country doesn't appreciate it, that becomes your mission. Make them appreciate it. |
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If I would have to make this my mission I might as well try to solve crime or do something against traffic aggression in the big cities, that should be about the same :) Quote:
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Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Sorry that you feel like this is so locked down and no way to change it. It's just hard to believe. I used to feel the same way about my town until I stopped telling myself and everyone else it's not possible. My goal now is to be paid more than the photographer. I have more work, and I get more impact after the wedding. This has nothing to do with percentages or what "they" find important or what most people see. This is about you changing the game. I believe you can, and I've never seen any of your work. It starts with you believing you can.
Bill |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
@Noa - I find myself in total agreement with everything that you say, my experience in the UK is virtually identical to yours. I do make a living from wedding video, but I exhibit at a lot of wedding shows and have acustomer base of 27 years for recommendations.
@Bill, I totally understand where you are coming from, but I feel that many of your motivational points are not relevant to many of the non US wedding markets. There is a very different cultural background in the UK and I'm afraid that no matter how fabulous and desireable a wedding demo was, it would not swing a greatly increased video budget from the bride. I am quite happy to concede that there are unlimited budget weddings available here, but only in certain areas of the social strata. There is also less gloss and glamour evident in the average UK wedding compared with the US one, and this is quite evident from the endless clips that we see on reality tv clip shows. My weddings, like Chris in Australia, fall in the mid price range, but I think I would find it far easier to pick up many budget quick weddings rather than occasional high paying high workload ones. Roger |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Coming late to this, but wanted to add my 2 cents.
The majority of our clients remark on how their wedding film "looks like a movie". Of course content is king, but if you have content AND great aesthetic, then you trump all. I also personally don't give a hoot what x% of couples would probably be happy with. I want to raise the game with every single wedding I shoot. No exceptions. Even if the couples wouldn't notice in a million years. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Too bad fellas. I feel like you're letting tradition determine the direction of your business. No one is more traditional than the american south. Yet somehow here we are. It wasn't easy but its continuing to grow.
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Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
You have to be realistic Bill, you can't change a few decades worth of tradition on your own by making pretty videos.
There is either a videoculture or there isn't and there is either an audience with deep pockets or there isn't, you happen to live in a part of the world where you seem to have both. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Not true. Neither deep pockets nor value for video. I wish you guys luck though .
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Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Okay, admittedly, I ve only done 4 wedding videos in my life. And admittedly they were all for family. So I probably don't have a right to say anything/, but here goes anyway...
But in those films, I shot what I though was important-- ie, the family relationships. So i wonder when I see one of those real nicely filmed wedding videos that has this slider shots across pallets of make up and the attendant snap focusing on a bride an/or her maid of honor brushing on make up, lipstick or eye liner--- I wonder if the clients ever really treasure that kind of shot... It looks professional and all that, but in 10 years when the video gets viewed again by the couple with their kids, will mommy be saying "Why did they think that had to show me getting all painted up. Why did'nt they show the fun me and my girls were having, instead of these dramatic makeup applications shallow focus shots. Just wondering.... |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Hi Chris
Ten out of ten for that comment....I don't do slider shots and I don't do pans across the make up palletts either..I capture the emotion and the fun of the day so I film people ... content is still king but you also have to remember to supply content that makes the bride look good rather than making you look good!! I keep saying that it's not about how clever you are as a videographer but rather about the couple and their day!! Luckily I don't even own a slider ...the only semi-creative bit I do is during the photoshoot on stedicam otherwise the rest of the shoot is entirely about memories on the day. Bill? We all do different things different ways and I'm glad you are making big money doing it your way! As long as the bride is happy with the result then it doesn't really matter on the method. Weddings done in Belgium by Noa will even have a totally different format to USA weddings to capture the specific mood and will be approached differently ...One size sadly doesn't fit all!! Chris |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Chris,
certainly not making big money at all. But we've discussed this ad nauseum. So, no big. Bill |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
A lot of interesting discussion here. For what it's worth, I do weddings, but I certainly don't
make my total living doing them. I do corporate video, interviews, freelance news, pick up editing, pretty much whatever someone will pay me for. And one of the reasons, is what some here have alluded to. At pretty much every wedding around here, there is a professional photographer. Maybe 20% even THINK about hiring a videographer. When I get a call, the ONLY thing they want to know is how much it will cost, often they don't even care about watching my demo. OK, so you may think that the brides around here don't care about quality. But it's not so simple as that. Even though I try to show my demos and the reasons for choosing a more expensive package, the cheapest one is almost always chosen. But then later.....let me give a quick example. Bride gets three choices. She predictably choses the cheap, one camera full ceremony option. I make sure I explain to her, that with this option, there is no editing as there is no other cameras to cut to and that if it gets blocked for some reason, I have no backup. She says that's fine, they just want a cheap 'video documenting the event'. So I finish the shoot, put titles in, author the DVD and give her a call. I am told that the photographer basically was a total bust and claimed that he had his laptop stolen from the venue, so there were NO pictures for the couple. (I wonder why he didn't still have the pictures on the original cards, but not my problem I guess.) Because of this bad experience with the photographer, the bride and groom wanted to 'take a look' at the DVD and 'see if we need to change any shots' before paying me the rest of what I was owed. I reminded them that they had chosen a one camera wedding, and were specifically told that there would NOT even be an OPTION to cut to another shot! Then of course they were mad at themselves for not choosing the more expensive option. Almost every time I do a wedding they do this, and I get to hear about how they wish they had chosen a better package. Seems that the couple is so busy dealing with everything else around the wedding, that the value of a good video is only a thought AFTER the wedding is over. Anyways, there is no way in the world I'd do a $299 wedding. I don't care if I just aimed the camera and hit record. I have to pack gear, drive to the location, unpack, set up, do the shoot, pack up drive home, dump to computer, add titles and slate screens, author the DVD or blue ray, burn and deliver the thing. There is no way that $299 would cover that. I guess we all have different standards, but I have no idea why I'd want to do volume business and do 'more, cheap' weddings. The cheaper my prices are, the more work is thrown at me, until clients want me to work all the time for no money. That's kind of a joke, but if I need money, I could always tape a dance recital or basketball game or something and sell DVD's to the participants and their parents at $25 a pop. I make more doing that than a $299 wedding, and they don't expect nearly the quality that the couple will. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Hi Gabe
The $299 came from me actually cos I found some videographer offering weddings for $299 (yep the ceremony and part of the reception!!) It was obviously a "example ultra low cost" I wouldn't lift my behind for $299 even for a short civil ceremony as you say you have to get there and back and lug gear etc etc....I in fact reluctantly have done a few civil ceremonies (about 30 mins plus travel) for $600 but anything less than that just isn't worth the effort and you would surely lose money on the deal!! Most brides want at least from the ceremony to the speeches as an absolute minimum!! Don't think I have done a "ceremony only" for many years! Chris |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
I see the poor humble slider is getting another pop. I confess to owning one but being a single shooter, it gets infrequent use, but if I have the time I don't mind whipping it out and getting a few beauty shots. I've seen a few negative comments about depth of field and slow motion here too, which I find surprising. I appreciate that some Videographers use them as their raison d'etre, but then I've seen some videos over-baked with Looks too. Doesn't mean I should stop using this software to colour grade my footage.
Sliders, stabilisers, low aperture lens, lights, slow motion etc - they're all tools to be used wisely. I see nothing wrong with throwing a busy background out of focus when videoing the Bride and Groom, or to have a slow and smooth camera move in towards the Bride via the slider. These shots mixed with footage of for example the Bride having a laugh with the Bridesmaids add variety and a little spice to my video, without being the main course. I'm not knocking those who don't use sliders or prefer videos to have a deep depth of field - we all have our style, choice of tools we use in our videos. It's apart of our style as Videographers. Do the Brides appreciate all these shots - I don't know. Then again do they really notice such techniques like shallow depth of field in all those big budget movies they see at the cinema?? |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
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The photo forum: 16 new posts (the last post was posted yesterday) The video forum: 1 new post (that 1 post was posted 20 days ago) Need to say more? |
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They concentrate on who's wearing what, who looks moody, who looks happy basically the whole emotion of the film. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Which also explains why people prefer photographs.
You always take a photo of people smiling most of the time. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
When I started this thread, it was because I had noticed the level of detail and amount of equipment that some wedding videographers introduced into their work. What has become increasingly clear is that there seem to be two fairly distinctive groups, I call them the Realists and the Idealists for convenience.
Realists tend to use good quality fairly minimalistic equipment, usually filming with one person and one camera, sometimes with a second locked down camera if space and situation requires it. They normally capture the action as it unfolds, looking from the outside in, allowing the day to take it's own course, editing for visual flow and shot consistency. Output to the client tends to be full length video with sometimes a short form as well. The idealists take a much more artistic approach, frequently using multi cameras, gliders, steadycams, sound recording systems etc. they tend to require more movement, use of shallow DOF for effect, full use of artistic editing and processing and music to emphasise romance and drama according to the videographers style and preference. Output to client is usually short form but sometimes with unedited long form. Pretty general overview and many mix both styles, but there is a definite difference, with seemingly a preponderance of the artistic short form in the US. I think that Chris's comment on the $299 video has been taken out of context by others and used as some sort of cheap video guideline price, which is not the case at all and should be forgotten in the context of the thread. But there is a big difference between high end big time and cost video and lower priced less time hungry offerings. Many in the higher end of the market are passionate about their artistry and equipment, with the feeling that if brides are properly educated in video, that they will gladly pay for a masterpiece. Others, which include myself, perhaps feel that the high end is not something they want to concentrate on, and that the remaining 80% of the 'no video' market could be educated to appreciate the worth of a video at a price that they would feel acceptable. The other side of the coin of course is why are you offering weddings at all? Do you want to make stylised and artistic films and find that weddings give a vehicle to achieve that? It is much simpler than getting a sponsor for a cinema production and gives the opportunity to apply skill, artistry and interpretation to an intimate and romantic subject. In my case, I love observing the whole wedding feel, with family and friends witnessing two people in love pledging their lives to each other. For me, the drama and romance is already there in the whole atmosphere of the day, with no requirement for me to shape it or add dramatic effect. I capture close up moments and general scene overviews, but allow shots to dictate themselves. I work to live, rather than living to work and I can't see spending weeks editing one video, even at a very rewarding price, when I have a life to enjoy and places to see. I love my work, but it is a means to earn a living while making my clients happy and giving me time for myself and family. I am very good at knowing what I want as I film, and can edit a video in a day if I get my head down. I normally allow a couple of days, but it gives me time to fit my work round my life. That is the whole reason I have worked for myself in audio and video for the last 45 years. Roger |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Hi Roger
Perfectly put!! I'm a bit of a realist too as I don't want to have my entire week or weeks taken up with just one wedding and then you have the equally horrifying situation with 4 weedings in a row (or more) and with weeks of editing you develop a serious backlog and irate brides as well. I shoot weddings for a living too but they don't take over my life ...I try to limit them to one per weekend and log footage on maybe Sunday afternoon, edit the whole show on Monday and it's wrapped up on Tuesday morning and that gives me time for myself or commercial week day shoots. It's an excellent point that weddings are actually not the ideal vehicle for the creative shooter..dunno about in the UK but here the bride always seems to run out of "photo time" between ceremony and reception (that you are sharing with the photog too) Not exactly the best time to carefully set up sliders and shots without rushing. BTW: I do have a DIY slider and it works very well too BUT time restraints at weddings tend to convince me to leave it at home most weekends! Maybe the title of your thread should have been "Are we becoming obsessed with shooting weddings" ? I have been shooting my way (very similar to your way too) for 23 years now and I have never had a bride complain so I will continue on this route so I also have time for myself too! Chris |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
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Seriously though, are those who spend so much on very sophisticated equipment, then spend sometimes weeks editing a masterpiece, genuinely earning a living from predominantly wedding video work? If so I would be interested to now how it is possible to take so long finishing a wedding, but be able to take on enough to earn a decent living and pay for equipment. Perhaps some high end videographers already have other lucrative video work or other employment which enables them to spend the time and have the financial security to only pick well paid wedding work. Roger |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Roger,
I realized with all of the silly talk about markets, I never answered your original question. Here's my experience. When I started to focus on quality, not image quality necessarily, but overall quality; the impact I started to have on the brides increased 10 fold. They don't know what it is that makes them excited about it, they just know they are excited. It was a lot of hard work to completely change my company over from a straight documentary style to the short form style we have now. As a result of that change, I'm able to charge about double what I did for the basic doc. The way I handle my backlog is through editors. I have 2 independant contractor editors that work with me, and I pay them per wedding so I can control the costs. So, as a result, I haven't edited a wedding in about 18months. I'm simply a director, they send me cuts and we revise until it's right. I make about 60% of my income right now through weddings, and the other 40% is made up through corporate work. I'm in the process of a creating a market there as well, staying away from 30sec tv and long form workshop stuff. Which is, btw, something else people said would never work in my market because I'm the only one I know that's doing it. I own a slider, and use it occassionally, but I'm concentrating on relationships and finding every couple's story. I do weddings because of the creative outlet. Brides don't generally give us any guidelines other than what they are planning for their day, it's up to us to hit the mark and get it right. There's an adrenaline there that just doesn't exist in scripted work, and it keeps my skills honed. Hope that answers your original question. Bill |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Bill it is clear from all the widely varying comments, that there is no definitive answer and as your methodology works well for you in your part of the world, then you have got it right!.
It most definitely would not work for me, the costs alone would make it prohibitive, especially finding editors that would give me full confidence in their ability to produce what I want. I would assume that either they have their own editing facilities, or you use a facilities house, or they use yours. None of that would be suitable for me. I totally agree with you about the excitement of filming as it happens with nothing scripted, which is why I have continued to film weddings for so many years. Your style of working, in my opinion, only works for certain types of customers and they are people that I rarely find here. The very type of work that you obviously enjoy doing, would frighten away many of my clients. I recently contracted a couple who were very indifferent when I first visited them, but they started to relax and become chatty as they watched my video. After a while they looked at each other and said 'shall we tell him'? It seems that they had tried to ring me to cancel the appointment but I had already left. I was the seventh video guy they had seen and the previous six had made them decide not to have a video. They had all left showreels which they suggested I took with me and watched. Every single showreel was of artistically filmed and stylised footage, with romantic soft closeups, slowmo moments, and film like movement and crane work to varying degrees. Romantic music entwined shots and scenes to add to the film effect. They videographers all wanted to discuss requirements and planning with pre wedding meetings and site visits. I was the only videographer to show moments like the bride's mother getting her heel caught in a grating, the bridesmaids huddled together for a sneaky cigarette, and a very natural fly on the wall documentary style. No pre planning and no site visits. They said that it was exactly what they wanted and booked me immediately. That sort of response and comment I have had time and time again over the years and the company's that offer the more cinematic approach seem to pop up like mushrooms then disappear just as quickly. That is of course just my experience in my area of the UK, and very occasionally I do get asked for something a little different, but not enough to make me think I could create a serious demand. Roger |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
I don't make enough money to live off weddings alone.
I have other jobs to get me by (not video related). The whole reason I got in to weddings 2 years ago was because I just happened to do a family event ... and after everyone loved it, I started reading up on the topic even more and now offer my services and have invested a considerable amount on equipment. Near enough £5000 with lenses, camera, tripod/slider etc. I think I would have to do what you guys do. Offer documentary style long form edits, and at reasonable prices to take on more work. At the minute, I have a glossed up website. But my prices aren't affordable enough. And to me it isn't worthwhile making the effort for anything less ... 1 out of 15 enquiries is a booking. I think that says a lot about cinematic weddings. On the other hand, if I actually bothered doing documentary style filming I might get more work. But problem is, I have no examples on my website. So im terrified, if I accept work for less, on the basis im providing a documentary style edit. The clients expectations will still be high as they only see cinematic style work on my website. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
James, I though it better to answer this on the thread about how you sell your service :-)
Roger |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
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Those are some interesting observations. But after reading this post, I'm a bit confused about what was the point of this thread exactly? Was it to confirm that you have noticed that there were different ways to approach wedding videography? Or were you actually interested in knowing how many of us really care about offering high quality work? |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
A couple observations....
You can focus on "only 20% of brides are looking for video", and get really depressed... OR you can focus on 20% ARE interested, and there's a HUGE pool (80%) out there that just isn't aware or thinks it's too expensive or whatever... who might well be interested if exposed and educated a bit. "Marketing" is not just buying gear, getting some business cards, and sitting by the phone waiting for it to ring... have a local newpaper do a "interest story" on your business, network with other vendors, get out there and show your "stuff"... EVERY successful business eventually has to figure out how to make the phone ring!! To do that, you need to understand what your unique VALUE is to a potential client - are you offering a "cinematic" artsy final product? A "document your day as it happened" approach? A hybrid of some sort? Pretend to be the client for a moment, what is it that would make you as a client WANT, desire, NEED to include video in the budget?? How do you get that message in front of your potential clients? The practical fact is "budget" is a real world factor - ignore it at your own risk. This applies to the client "budget" and to your own business "budget". Sure you WANT to shoot with a Red... but will you recoup the costs? The client might not be interested in video or only have a "beer budget", but when presented with a well shot showreel that MOVES them, they might BECOME interested... maybe even develop a "champaigne taste"! I found Gabes comments interesting - one thought, if you're there ANYWAY, because the client booked the "el cheapo" package, how about being the "hero" that shot with a couple extra cameras/angles, and when the 'tog blows it, you've got the extra footage to "save the day"??? You can ALWAYS deliver a one camera product, but the idea that you might be able to "upsell" later is worth considering. I've quoted the $299 price point as well, because it came up here, but I've SEEN it locally... so it's not completely absurd that you may be competing with this sort of "competition". That the "competition" may produce horrid unwatchable drek (seen it at local bridal fairs!) is probably helpful to those who insist on quality, but it's still good to be aware that such "competition" is out there, Know you will sooner or later probably hear "but I can get it for $300" from potential clients and be prepared to point out the strengths in your own product/experience (yes you can include "equipment" in the mix, but is it REALLY going to impress the bride? REALLY??) I would hope one would always strive to produce "best" quality product, no matter what the price point, and if the product is good... word of mouth, networking and a little promotional marketing should lead to enough work to make a real business of it! I don't see it as being "obsessed with quality", but rather that I expect to produce quality PERIOD, with the equipment at hand (or readily affordable). I'll stir the pot and suggest that IF you can get the shot (or the clip, with video), you should be able to pick up a darn smartphone and shoot workable footage! Yes, every device has limitations, but in the end it comes down to knowing how to SHOOT and later edit, not how big or expensive your "gear box" is.... |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
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I thought the point of the thread was quite clear, which was are we obsessed with obtaining the highest quality at all costs, at the expense of a much wider field of opportunities that are also out there. I think that like all threads, it has thrown up a number of points that have also been expanded on, although I also feel that much of my original post has been answered very succinctly by Daves post just before this one. Roger |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Dave,
that was awesome. |
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Please forgive me if If I'm not fully understanding the message you are trying to get across. When you say "at the expense of a much wider field of opportunities that are also out there", are you suggesting that people who care about delivering high quality product are missing opportunities because the type of brides they cater to are part of a minority in the large market scale? If that is the point of this discussion, I think that the idea of "missing opportunity" could go both ways, depending on how you see it. Whether you decide to drop quality to keep your cost low and cater to the mass market or you want to raise your standards and target a higher end clientele is your personal choice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with either business model as long as you are able to reach the target brides YOU want to cater to and make the type of films YOU want to make. The problem only occurs if you are not getting the weddings you want to book or you are not feeling fulfilled doing the work you do. If that is the case, there are SO MANY things you need to consider on top of the "quality obsession" question. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Hi Long
I don't think that Roger was suggesting a quality reduction of any sort..we all deliver the best resolution we can. He was simply comparing the guys who take 60 hours to produce an absolutely perfect product and correct every single detail taking weeks which sadly the bride doesn't appreciate or even notice. The main point I think was dividing time between shooting weddings and having time for yourself. If like Roger and myself do edit/packaging within a few days then you do have more time and you can still make a decent income at the costing rate you deserve. If my total shoot/edit/travel time was say 70 hours (10 hours shoot +60 hours edit/package/travel) I would have to charge $5250 to achieve my $75.00 an hour and my market wouldn't support that sort of pricing. I can comfortably do a wedding with a total cost time of only 25 or 30 hours all up and sell that for around the $2000 figure and still achieve my $75.00 per hour and have more time for me and more brides that are interested. Of course if the USA and Canada have lots of brides willing to over the $5K figure for a basic wedding then there is nothing wrong with that. Chris |
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The problem with this kind of comparison is that it can easily become completely irrelevant as soon as people start talking about their own clients and their own market. The statement that brides don't appreciate or even notice quality is as true as it can be false. It all depends on who is speaking on whose behalf. A fast food restaurant owner can say that customers only appreciate the quick and cheap meals while a fine dining restaurant owner can say that customers actually care about good quality food. If both of them are running a successful business respectively, it becomes pointless to try and compare the two. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Chris you said
************ If my total shoot/edit/travel time was say 70 hours (10 hours shoot +60 hours edit/package/travel) I would have to charge $5250 to achieve my $75.00 an hour and my market wouldn't support that sort of pricing. I can comfortably do a wedding with a total cost time of only 25 or 30 hours all up and sell that for around the $2000 figure and still achieve my $75.00 per hour and have more time for me and more brides that are interested.*************************************** Your point is well taken. The reality is that most wedding videographers aren't realist. When you add equipment cost, shoot time, edit time, booking and office time, the $2000 videographer could easily be making $15 bucks an hour just like the $500 wedding guy. Most wedding videographers will dance around this topic their whole career. The cost of multiple cameras, multiple audio devices etc. The setup time and edit time for multiple devices can be off the chart. You hear guys constantly bragging about how many cameras they set up for all the different angles.. All the audio devices to back up the other audio devices. All the sliders and dslr rigs. You hardly hear them mention the cost of that gear? The time it takes to setup and tear down? How many hours they spend on wedding day? And you will rarely ever hear the REAL numbers on how many edit hours. And even more rare is you never hear anybody say, I'm putting in the time but I'm getting $6000 for that wedding. And I realize in every market there are a few that do. But I do believe because we are so obsessed with equipment and quality that average wedding videographer relegates themselves to roughly $15 bucks an hour. Admit it or not. Al |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Thanks Al
Trust me, if I could do just ONE wedding a month for $8000 it would be far better, time management wise, to do that instead of doing 4 x $2000 weddings. The only point however (as $8K is a pipe dream here!) is that if you do a $2000 wedding then spend 25 hours on it, not 60 hours so your profit margin is sustainable. It's great to see someone slave over footage over and over attending to minute detail but it sadly doesn't make business sense. I leave that sort of obsession to personal stuff I might shoot but not on weddings where profit margins are concerned. Chris |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
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So, in the interest of full disclosure. As you said, I WAS going to be shooting the wedding anyways. So guess what? I had an HD Hero cam on a slider (mounted on a tripod) to do a couple 'artsy' shots and then when the ceremony started, I just centered the slider on the tripod and recorded to have a 'save my butt' angle just in case my main camera got blocked or something. It's things like this that drive my wife crazy as she always tells me I am not running the business correctly. If they refuse to pay for the second camera, I shouldn't be going to the work of actually using it! Alas, I often do. And then I often make the music video that is supposed to be a $500 add on. Then, since I made it anyways, I will often throw it on the DVD and they end up getting it for free. In this particular case, I didn't want the client coming over to pick and chose shots, especially since she had agreed that I would be doing a one camera shoot. So I reminded her of that fact over the phone. One of those things where I wanted to be very firm with her as she was starting to make me nervous that she was going to be 'one of those' brides. Wanting to come over and choose which camera angle she should be seeing after she agreed that she wanted the low budget single camera wedding??? Really? After I reminded her on the phone, she got very apologetic and told me I was right and that they would be glad for whatever video I was able to make them, especially since she had got absolutely no stills from the photographer. Which of course made me feel bad for her and I put in extra editing time to cut in extra angles from the GoPro, which of course drove my wife crazy.... stinking vicious circle. BUT, the good thing, is what this whole experience taught me. I was talking about the whole thing with a friend of mine who does wedding photography. She is very good, and does roughly 50 times the amount of weddings I do, because....well she's a photographer, and not a videographer. She told me, that what I do, is make the music video, and then SHOW the clients the video, and offer them the CHANCE to buy it! If they don't, then you don't put it on the DVD. But she said, if they see it, they will usually want to buy it! Which is totally true. As I've seen, they often choose the cheap package, and then after the fact want the expensive one! She often does this with her photography, and when she shows them the 'extra' photos, she says they ALWAYS buy them. She also told me that all the expos she attends, the photographers are being pushed to offer video services as well. She like me, immediately saw the flaw in that plan as it is hard to do both good photos and video at the same wedding. Even with DSLR's that shoot HD video and camcorders like the VG20 that shoot 16 megapixel raw stills, you are making decisions (like shutter speed for example) for one medium or the other. Not to mention, that you may miss a good photo opportunity if you are recording video, or vice versa. So her idea, was to partner with me, and she would do the 'documentary' style coverage with the photos, as well as the traditional photo shoot, and I would do the 'cinematic' music highlights video. Apparently, in talking with her brides (and this is a photographer who does hundreds of weddings) they are NOT interested in a one or two hour long video that shows everything. They can't get their friends to sit through that, it just isn't interesting enough. Now this may be a cultural thing (short American attention spans), or an age thing, or who knows what. Apparently some of you have different experiences and have brides that want the whole 1-2 hour ceremony plus 3 hours at the reception, and an hour or so of prep captured, and want to watch it all. But I was told that if I offered the highlights video she would package it with her photos and sell us as a 'multimedia' package deal as she absolutely loves the highlights video and thinks it will sell. So I am trying a new venture this upcoming summer. It might be worth it for some of you to try and find a talented 'one person band' wedding photographer who doesn't have a big enough business to offer video services, and partner with them to offer 'multimedia' services. Who know, I may get very little work out of it, although we have had some prebookings already, which is not something I am used to getting. I am also raising my prices. But the worst that can happen is that people think I am too expensive and don't book me, in which case I have more time to play with my kids. That definitely won't ruin my summer! If wedding video was the only work I did, I may have a different opinion, but I decided a long time ago, not to put all my eggs in one basket so I do TV commercials, events, corporate and non profit promotional films, and all kinds of other video work. Most times, when one segment of my business is down, another is up, which keeps me from worrying too much about something like wedding bookings being low. I just take the free time I am gifted and spend it with my family, after all that's what's important anyways!!!! |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
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If we refer to your own example, I'm not sure what doesn't make business sense here. If you spend on average 25 hours per wedding and need 4 of them to reach your $8000 monthly goal, then you'd end up working 100 hours at the end of the month to make the same amount that a single 60 hours wedding would make. In this case, wouldn't you be the one overworking yourself to reach the same financial goal? As far as the "$8K is a pipe dream" comment goes, we are once again falling into a pointless debate about "MY market vs YOUR market" which always ends up with a "good for you, but it doesn't work like that here where I live" type of comment which, once again, is completely irrelevant depending on who's looking at it. It is just funny to see how some people are so determined to pull out numbers taken from their own personal situation as a reference to what is supposed to be "real" and automatically believe that everything else doesn't make sense. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
I read this thread with some interest and it seems to me that it's not about quality...it's more about style! Give less than good and you won't be getting any work. I'll tell you the story of the guy here who started off with low prices, going gangbusters, then got so much work he couldn't keep up, either with he new clients he kept taking or the old clients that he didn't deliver to. Stopped answering emails, phone calls etc... Not only did he get slammed on the wedding websites but he got taken to court. Gave us all a bad rap!
Just because I do a long form doc style doesn't mean the quality is anything less than any of the "cinematic" edits I've ever seen and we all need to keep in mind that market dictates style as well as pricing more than anything else. If you're in a market where the majority of work done is cine style at say a $2500 price range and you come out at $5000 you probably won't get too much work, you will then either have to lower your prices or get out of the business and I've seen both. Go the other way and charge too little and 2 things happen. One is you get so much work you can't keep up and Two, people are suspicious of your pricing an don't book you. Regardless it just seems to me that this thread is more about style not quality and since style doesn't dictate quality (at least no to me) it's gotten way off track. Since I'm at the end of my wedding career and only have 20 booked for the entire season (down from an average of 50+) and all but 1 came from referrals or family repeat business (sisters, brothers, cousins) I don't really care except for the one thing that every wedding I've ever done, long form, short form, cinematic or documentary style share and that is while the style may be different the quality is always the 110% best I can produce each and every single time. Like I was taught many years ago and tried to pass on to my own kids, "there's never enough time to do it right the first time, but there's always enough time to go back and do it again" except there isn't! Anything but the best quality you can produce under the circumstances is unacceptable. The style however is a different thing! Just my $.02 worth from doing the few weddings I've done. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
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Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
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I work documentary style - long form edit with other sequences (arrivals of guests/photoshoot etc) set to music and a little more 'artistic' but not really cinematic - and this is exactly what my couples want - a no-fuss recording of their day as it actually happened - not how I think it should have happened. |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
Noa ,
What's pointless is that no one can tell you that you're wrong because you're the only Belgian. So, it's pointless to tell you that you can have brides that pay more and appreciate video as much or more than photography because of your whole culture is against video. So I'm done with that argument. I think Dave framed the argument perfectly but it saddens me that so many of us have constructed this box that we must live in. I'm not sure what's so scary out there but the world ,the whole world is your oyster. Go get it. Bill |
Re: Are we becoming obsessed with quality?
It's pointless discussing with people that don't know what they are talking about yet persist on knowing they do. I do wish you guys luck though .
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