On Camera light during reception
 

So I am a "professional" videographer in a small market (basically I do everything that needs to be done) and am about to try my hand at wedding videography to make some spending money.

I am planning on buying a canon hv-20 and was curious about handling the low light situation of the reception. I figure I have to have it on during the critical parts of the reception, right? I will get the canon on camera light (VL-3 On-Camera 3 Watt Video Light maybe upgrade to a paglight c-6 kit if I do this enough)

Any advice out there for a newbie?

for receptions I have a simple rule of thumb. When indoors the light is on. I know some will say you don't need it, some will say it annoys the guests. To both I say phooey!!! ;-)

In the last 25 years I have only had a handful of people say the light is too bright and that was many many years ago when we had to use 100w sunguns. Today I use a 35W Anton Bauer with a softbox and honestly I haven't had any complaints. Of course you gotto know what the gear can do and at 35W it's only good for about 10 feet MAX anything past that and you might as well not use a light. Again, I've not had any complaints about the light even when I walk in to as close as 4 feet from the subject matter. People realize that the room is so dark that they can't see anyway and without the light I might as well be home watching TV. Here in my area the big thing is to turn the room lights down to just about off and even the photogs I wirk with pretty much all the time like the light. They can see to focus.
Frankly I think the 3 watt light would be a waste maybe not but IMO it is. Get a 20-30 or even a dimmable 50 and use some diffusion and dim it down. Now you'll be able to capture an image that you can work with.
Just my $.03 worth (adjusted for the cost of living)
Don

Just tell the DJ or venue manager to keep the house lights "up". You'd be surprised how often they listen.

The times they don't however 3 watts won't do much good. It all depends on how far away you'll be.

Hi guy's

I always have drama's when i ask the reception to turn the lights up there excuse is it sets the mood but even with my camera which is at 0.4lux i still carry my swit on-camera light which i plug directly into my camera fantastic.
If the lights are up in the reception while they are dancing i dont use it other than that you need a light. I know for my camera 35w is even over kill.
Can i just ask what camera are you guy's using i mean reason why i haven't opted for a smaller camera say like the Z1 is because i was always worried about how it copes in low light.

I would love to scrap the shoulder mount camera and go for handheld as long as it can perform close to my JVC or not

First off in Chicago it's not the room managers call-it's the B&G who insist on keeping the lights down. The DJ has no say in it what so ever. I explain to the B&G in our meeting before the wedding that killing the lights is not a good idea but it's their wedding and they want the "romantic" look of a dark room. Not for me to say anything.
As for a 35W light being too much - I used to shoot with a JVC5000U w/ Canon 16X and the 35W barely got it done. I went back to Sony's and still will occassionally use 6db of gain for the receptions. Not at all noticable but just a small safety margin. Remember, if you're using an LCD to judge exposure by, don't! Use Zebras! A 35W light with a softbox knock the effectness down to about 30W and again that's only good for about 8 to 10 feet maybe.
Personally, I want the best image quality possible, I don't want stuff that's so dark you can't see a clear image or distinguish colors. I would rather have someone say something about a "bright light" than have the B&G call me after and complain how they can't see anything of their reception because it was too dark.
Use your best judgement but this is what I've been doing for 25 years and it works for me.
Don

Ryan, do your self a favor, as soon as you get to the reception, address the lights being turned down. Find out who's in charge and explain to them that if the lights go down, the video will be dark. I've only had a couple of times they refused to listen to me. The last time the lights were turned off, I looked at the person and told them that if the bride and groom are unhappy with the video, I will blame the person who keeps turning off the lights..........3 minutes later, the lights were turned up to a reasonable point for my camera light.

Hey Don, do you have a link for your kit. I have a pag light 6, but I'm trying to decide if I want to diversify with a different kit, or get another pag light.

Steven,
I use the standard Anton Bauer UltraLight and throw a 35W bulb init (from home depot) and then cover it up with the AB softbox. I've used everything from a 20W bulb to a 75w bulb for news type stuff and found the 35w w/ softbox works best for receptions. Last weekend I did 2 weddings, great examples both. They were so dark the photogs (I know both really well) hung by my side all night waiting for me to turn on my light so they could see to focus. Talk about dark! BTW, I use the AB power tap and power off my camera battery-I use AB Dionic90s and yeah it sucks down the juice but generally 3 batteries will get me thru the entire day and night with a 4th in reserve. I even use the auto "ON" feature for the light (a switch on the camera-hit record it comes on hit record again it goes off)-that way no chance of forgetting to turn it on.
I know B&H has them, they're pretty standard in the industry.
Also you might look at the Frezzi dimmables. A 50W dimmable with a diffusion filter works great. I know a couple of guys that use them and love them.
Don

There's no doubt about it, you need light to film by. And generally with video cameras the more light the better the image quality. I use the Sony's 20-DW2 10 +10 watt light with a Lumiquest soft box diffuser on the front. Again, no complaints, and always better than upping the gain.

But back to your original post Ryan. I'm just slightly concerned to hear you're attempting weddings on the diminutative single chip HV20. Fine camera that it is, it's not really 'manual' enough for the job I feel.

tom.

Exactly the same thought I had. Plus, what about audio, back up camera, tripod, etc.?

3 watt on a hv20? Don't think so, maybe if you bought a Sony vx2100 but I'm sure the canon will not handle dark situations well on 3 watts of light.
To be honest, I think you would be better off buying a second hand, but bigger, camera in the range of pana dvx100 or sony vx2100, especially the sony might sell "cheap" since it's not produced anymore and it's not HD.

Tom
For how long can you keep the Sony-DW2 on? I am not talking battery-wise but hot-wise. Does it do any damage to leave it on long periods of time?

Stelios

I'm not Tom but mine goes for at least 2 hours (with momentary off periods between some dances). It'll get pretty warm but an NP F-970 battery will die before there's anything to worry about.

I also use the Lumiquest soft box that attaches via permanent velcro strips. It's kind of oversized for the 10/20 light so you have to be careful not to cover up the ventilation holes when applying the adhesive strips.

Rick

Thanks for the info. Why do you use the Lumiquest? Does it go in front of the light? Can you post some pictures?

Stelios

Well I am tom.

And here's a shot of the Sony light with the Lumiquest diffuser attached:

http://www.fortvir.net/gallery2/tom-...X2000.jpg.html

Like Rick I'm perfectly happy to leave the lamp running as long as the NPF can take it. The diffuser doesn't obscure the ventillation holes, but what happens is the self-adhesive velcro strips begin to 'creep' as they heat up, and every couple of weddings I have to pull them off and realign them on the lamp body. No worries.

Rick - have you thought about this? My Lumiquest diffuser has a welded insert panel to give extra diffusion to the area of the lamp fillamants themselves - it's just as if this Mini Softbox was expressly made for the 20-DW2 lamp.

But the amount of light is reduced considerably by this 'double skin' of diffusing material, and I'm tempted to use a scalpel to remove the welded layer. Whaddayathink?

tom.

buy cheap led light (the ufo model) or simple 5$ torch, and put them everywhere you need. modify them to have diffused light (simply sandpaper the plastic window). It is cold, can stay on for hours, cost nothing , are very small (you can put 5 in your pocket). simply tape them or use magnet where possible. You can even put a sticker of you business on it and leave them as giveaway. look on ebay, from hong-kong it start from 2$, the battery cells you put in the lamp cost usually more than the lamp itself.
search on ebay for "UFO led" or "Led Lamp"
Some have a bit cold white, but there is nothing you cannot correct in post.

Giroud:

I had a look at those lights, Interesting.

Which one do you use? 24, 48, or 60? What sort of distance do they throw the light? How bright are they - stupid question :-) .

Do you have any photos that could illustrate how effective they are?

take the 48 led , it is ok
there is a guy selling them for video (150$ ea.), his excuse is that he changed the led, but while it is possible, it should be verified.
at least his web site shows a good video of the gadget.
look at that thread
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=729132

the good ideas with leds, it is they do not give a lot of light, so it does not generate heavy shadow, unlike conventional on camera light.
they stay cold, the can be powered for hours on a simple pair of AA batteries.
you can slip them behind any furniture, into plants, behind curtains, over a table (if you put a white paper/plastic on it) and nobody will complain because it is soft light.
You could plan to spread the UFO model like mines (it looks like) on grass .
Frankly for about 15$ (includes shipment) you should really try one.
The concept with led light is not to throw light from one point to another, but simply bring it where it is needed

some other models (like the big torches) can be used as heavy light.
You treat them like regular light, except it can be installed in seconds.
just use a big plastic spring clamp (found for 2$ in any do-it) to fix them anywhere.

I am very happy with this model (i take 3)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll..._promot_widget

just added a diffuser (sanded plastic)

There are 2 needs for lighting reception.
First you need to light the subject (what is in front of camera) and the background .
While the foreground can be done with conventional lamp, the background require usually heavy setup and is often not possible.
the drawback of lighting only foreground is usually it make shadows and it make the background even darker.
So the leds light are great to give you more light in the background (increase ambient light) without creating any disturbance.

Led light are usually cheap and bad quality (from the video point of view, too cold), but if the point is "poor light or no light at all" , the camera usually do not let you choose and again, a good correction in post will save your day.

Renton -
there is a thread over in the section under the V1U/FX7 that discusses the "ufo lights".

the guy who sells the upgraded one discusses his mods there - I believe he uses LED's of a specific color temp, which might be good.

I've got 4 of the 48 light model, worked great camping <wink>. the ones I got switch between 24/24/48 and give a wide dispersion, not a huge throw, maybe 10-15 ft., BUT you could rig an array of them and increase the overall light output. I contemplated setting up 2-3 on a boom of some sort so they are up above eye level (don't know why you'd want them on the shotgun mic, but I suppose... I'd rather not blind the "talent". The wide dispersion is a plus - no "hot spots" like with some other lights (my Sony lights need diffusion to be usable).

The stock Chinese ones are dirt cheap, not terribly sturdy (don't drop 'em), and DO heat up a bit from my experience, no where near what an incandescent bulb does, which is a big plus, you're not going to cause a fire most likely!

The color output is VERY cold, noticeably blue, BUT I switched my Sony WB presets to outdoor, and everything looked pretty close to "normal" - wouldn't mix well with normal warm indoor lights, and could play havoc with your WB... just FYI.

My regular light setup is a couple of the aforementioned Sony HVL20 type lights (some use F series batteries, others use the FM), with a Stofen diffuser and a couple knock off diffusers from India... I mount them on brackets to get them up and away from the cam a bit, again to reduce the stress on the "subject".

I'm happy with that setup, the UFO lights were an experiment, and may yet get used for some fill lighting in a studio setup I'm trying to dial in, but they were great while camping <wink>.

How would they work with a colour correction gel on them?

I use as much of the light in a room as it appears, just learn to set your gain,contrast and other settings for optimal low light. You can get some really beautiful shots that don't have people looking like deer in headlights.
I have a custom preset button on my GL2 for these situation specifically, set it up ahead of time. Practice shooting in a dark bar or similar situation. Work on minimizing any graininess your camera may inject.
The DJ can be your best friend, many have a spotlight ( which they only pull out on request)...also, tell your dj to go easy on the reds...

you could try it, would probably lose some throw - they are pretty "cool" temp wise, but I was surprised by how well the outdoor WB preset worked

I think removing any layer and you'd have more focused light which is what you don't want. The Lumiquest works fine for me as is but the only times I use it is for short periods about 6 feet from the couple. Even 10/20 watts diffused will be annoying so I'm "in and out" and always moving. And I can't picture that thing being made specifically for the Sony 10/20 otherwise the velcro would be smaller.

Lately though, I haven't been using it and mostly just stay on the tripod. Getting too fat and lazy.

Tom
In there site there are 3 types of softbox, Softbox, sofrbosII and mini softbaox. Do you have the mini sofrbox for the Sony 20-DW2?

Stelios

I use two different approaches, both of which I first get approval from the person that hires me.

My preference is to use one or two 750 watt contractor's work lights on light stands to provide an even fill light in a specific area. My back-up is a 10 watt, diffused, Cool-Lux Mini Cool 12 volt on camera light. It is 20 years old, works fine, so why fix it?

Regarding the contractor's work lights:
1. They are either bounced off of a ceilng or bounced off of a standard 36" wide photo umbrella. The idea is to increase the overall light levels in a very uniform and non-directional way. When the reception is taking place in a tent I simply bounce the light off of the ceiling fabric, which is usually white. The light diffuses everywhere with no shadows. Photographers love them, as they significantly improve focusing ability in otherwise dark environments.
2. They are on an in-line dimmer. I use an old Radio Shack "Plug-n-power" system that wirelessly controls light levels. In-line cord dimmers are also available. Watch wattage loads carefully.
3. The lights themselves demand secure attachment to walls, columns, stages, etc. If I cannot secure them safely, I do not use them. No one needs a lawsuit for negligence.

Regarding on-camera lights:
1. Modify, if you can, the mounts so the light is about 10" above the camera lens. This improves overall lighting and removes the issues of red-eye as well as complaints. Always diffuse the light, but allow for a way to quickly remove the diffusion for distant subjects, i.e., 10' to 20 '.
2. A particular brand is irrevelant to me. One learns how to use the tools at their disposal. Some brands are easier to use than others. The end result is the same.

Bottom line is virtually all event shooting situations will need some kind of additional lighting at some point. The challenge is to figure out a way to get the need met quickly and economically.

Any advise for a Newbie?
Yes. Control your environment. Don't depend on outside sources for lighting. If the catering house lights are sufficient, great. If not, it should not affect your lighting. You have to have enough light for all conditions. A large windowless, candle light environment with dark walls and drapery will not have the same lighting characteristics as a catering hall with large picture windows and light walls. You have to be prepared for both extremes. Skin color can also make a difference on the amount of lighting needed.

No matter how well lit the hall may be while setting up, expect a drastic change once the reception begins. Have extra lights on hand, ready to go.
I use a 50w xenon light with diffusioin paper. The light can be turned up toward the ceiling with a soft glow cast by the diffusion paper for those low light shots where I don't want to mess up the DJ's light show. For a distant shot I simply lift up the difussion paper and I have a near spot light with excellent throw.

I still carry a light kit with remote controls or use a lighting assistant who holds a battery powered remote light that can light up any scene no matter how far from the camera without blowing the hall up.

Your first responsibility is to produce great video. Sufficient lighting is as important as good composition.

That 3w light has no place in your bag of tricks.
Allen W

If, despite your best efforts, you come away with bad film, you can do a lot with black and white and even make it look intentional. Another thought is to show multiple clips simultaneously to avoid grain.

Allen - great idea about using the ceiling so-as not to interfere with the light show. I'm going to try that. Most of the venues here have very high ceilings though.

BTW, Allen, would you elaborate on your lighting gear for receptions. I really want to get away from direct light, and since my wife and I film together, perhaps we can help each other with deflection.

We use Sony HVL-20 (20 watt) lights, but would love to find a way to deflect or diffuse the light. Is there something I can attach to these that would do the trick?
http://www.abelcine.com/store/produc...2&cat=0&page=8

Also, Waldemar, where would I find a mount for my FX1s that would raise my lights up 10"+?

Yes Stelios - it's the Mini Softbox that fits the 20-DW2 lamp so well.

Dana -
You'll find quite a few guys use a Sto-Fen diffuser - that's what I've arrived at myself, just stick it on the front of the light (can't recall which model # is the right one, but I think its the OM-EZ).

Then mount the ol' HVL20 on a flash bracket, you can swing the light up and to the side depending on the type of bracket, or a fixed bracket buys you some distance. I like the brackets that allow me to orient the light horizontally (look for "flip" type brackets) so the light throw is sort of "wide" rather than "tall". Depending on the bracket you choose, it will provide a nice extra grip to help stabilize the cam too! For the FX1, you might look at the Stratos brand - they have 8 and 10" extensions in their series - have an 835 myself around somewhere, a bit heavy for the FX7, but would be about right for the FX1.

Yes, the Sto-fen is a snap to fit, but rather 'encloses' those over-run halogens in a heat bubble. I prefer the collapsible Lumiquest because it has ventilation slots, quickly rips off (sound of tearing velcro), folds flat and stores in your shirt pocket. As Waldemar says - if you need more light that's the thing to do.

I'm one for keeping the lamp on the Z1's lens axis as much as possible, that way shadows are hidden as much as possible. Red-eye is never a problem in movies, especially when the lamp is diffused so much. But I do sometimes position the lamp horizontally on my camera, feeling that it's aspect ratio more accurately matches my shooting 16:9.

But all this tungsten-talk will be fading away now, as high-intensity LED lamps quickly take over.

tom.

With diffusion, getting the light up and away a bit seems to help the subjects, and I've noticed no problems with shadowing, but YMMV - I'm pretty particular about shadows, so know what you're talking about... that's where a bracket actually allows for on the fly adjustment.

My only worry with the Lumiquest would be how it would handle the heat - has that been an issue? I'm guessing no since you're using it <wink>, but that's my only reservation - I had the same worry with the Stofen, but it's never been a problem - I experimented with other diffusion approaches, and anything near those bulbs melts... but the Stofen worked fine, and the Lumiquest looks pretty good too if it holds up to the heat.

And yes, when the LED's are available color corrected, they should be pretty nice.

Dave - yours was post Nr 32, and I answered your question back at Nr 15.

I made my own.

My original Cool-Lux came with a hot shoe mount that had a 1/4"/20 thread socket in it. I rememer seeing a similar shoe mount in the Porter's Camera catalog for a few dollars (http://www.porters.com). It's best to order a free catalog and page through it as coming up with the right search criteria while on line is difficult.

I cut a 36" 1/4"/20 threaded steel rod to size and fit it into the shoe mount I mentioned earlier. I used washers and wing nuts to clamp the rod to the hot shoe and the light.

For diffusion, I made a wire bracket out of a coat hanger and stapeled a small piece of diffusion gel onto the bracket. The gel easily flips up when I don't need the diffusion.

It took me some experimentation to get all parts to fit together properly, but once done, the assembly has served me well for almost ten years.

Holy cow. I made the mistake of switching my email address and I had to wait a while before I could reply to everyones comments'.

First of all thank you for all of the advice. I have decided to go with the Xh-a1 and a paglight c-6 (other stuff too, but this is the relevant info). I have a bunch of equipment from work I can use (Glidecam with Smooth Shooter, Sony Z1-U, audio devices, etc.)

I will also post my purchase list as far as equipment goes as soon as I get it finalized to get everyone's thoughts. Unless those thoughts are "you suck, don't even try" then you can just keep that to yourself.

Lighting
 

I took the light from my Very old Panasonic VHS camcorder, and connected it to a puchbutton switch and sealed 12V lead acid battery. The light is 10W, and works well when within 10 feet or so. It has a hot shoe slide in bottom, so it looks like it belongs there!

Ryan, have you looked at the Canon 10w on camera light? Bob

I am still undecided. I like the Paglight C 6 because it is 20w and also has barn doors plus diffusion. The price of the Canon is certainly appealing as well as the compatibility between batteries. Why so many decisions?

Because God said "Let there be light".

The paglight lost the race in my book simply because of the bulk of the NiCad battery pack and the need for the umbilical chord. Fine light though it undoubtedly is.

tom.