re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

If they're only giving him 90 minutes per shooting session that's not a lot of time for an inexperienced one-man band to get things done...setting up, figuring out the focus issue, seeing the move and how to break it down into shots/angles, all while working with a somewhat uncooperative client.

Hell, I would struggle with what he's trying to accomplish under those conditions, and probably wouldn't have taken this on at all.

There are definitely folks who could get it done, but I'm thinking of people who've been at this for 25 years and just "know" stuff at first glance, and can think in sequences, etc. Can almost see the edit in their heads and know how to shoot for it.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thanks. I definitely would do a lot better if I had more than 90 minutes at a time per shoot I feel.

As for moving the camera further away, well they keep coming close to it, so they still leave the DOF. Also, the more I move it away, the further away they are when they start, so it's hard to see the moves they want to show then, but maybe that's okay...

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Ok let's take a different tack

How much do they actually care about this whole thing and how it comes out? As I said before, clients who care, going by many corporate shoots I've done, are a lot more anal about stuff, perfectionist, and aren't like "eh that's fine let's move on" when the videographer is unhappy (within reason...there ARE videographers who are TOO perfectionist...but this doesn't sound like you in this case).

I mean, I'm sure your client would PREFER it come out well, but if doesn't, do you think they might just never put it on their site and shelve it? Are they paying you? Are they paying you WELL? Your descriptions of your interactions with them have all the hallmarks of someone treating this like a "be nice it works out but no biggie if it doesn't" kinda project.

If that's the case, then maybe just do what you can within your many constraints and don't stress, do better on the next.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I'm not being payed I took this on as a volunteer gig for something to do in the meantime, since I thought maybe I should take on more different types of projects.

I think they are in a rush a to get it done. They seem like they want to, but definitely want to rush it out there it seems.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Ok, so here's what I perceive to be happening:

They have NOTHING to lose here...there is no money or anything else at stake here for them. If this doesn't turn out well for them, there is nothing lost if they don't use the videos (hint: they probably won't) on their site.

This means they can run the shoot terribly and it ultimately doesn't matter, because, again, nothing is really at stake.

This is often the case with volunteer work. Where you would THINK a client would be grateful beyond belief that someone is donating their time and gear to make something for them, often times it is the opposite and the lack of money comes with a total lack of respect for the videographer's time etc. So basically they're like "eh, this guy volunteered so why not? Whatever. Who cares." I don't know if that pisses you off, but it should. You're trying to grow and they almost couldn't give less of a crap about the whole thing.

Do what that info what you will.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I don't want to get into a debate about this but if you're using a kit zoom lens, the aperture doesn't open that wide, and you should be using the widest part of the lens which is often around 30mm. Those factors alone are going to give you a large dof. You can test this out at home or look it up on dof calculator. https://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html
I think because you are always trying to shoot close ups you aren't aware of how large the dof is for wide angle shots.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Well they are in focus for about half the shot, but as they come closer, they start going out, once they cross the first half of the room. But perhaps the motion blur from their speed may hide the going out of focus, and it may be just interpreted as motion blur maybe.

And yes, they have nothing to lose, but of course I still want to do a good job, with what I have, if possible.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

If doing this types of gigs you have to be in charge as the director, you need to use whatever mind games you have in your arsenal to get the participants into the required positions. If they come towards you, cut instantly and tell them not to, reposition them and do another take.

You are the one doing them a favour by making them a free video.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

This is the sort of production where things will be unpredictable and a proper video camera, with a lens that stays in focus is a real must. I very rarely need a shallow DoF. All my work seems to require sharp images, and anything out of focus is bad. With a real camera, with real focussing, you spend so little time running focus. Focus is the thing I learned first with my studio camera work. Focussing the correct direction was always the killer. Something in the viewfinder is soft, but turning the focus knob the wrong way on a live shot was the sign of a real novice. You soon develop the knack of spotting if the soft item is behind the sharp subject or if its a soft foreground object. Focus really is not a problem, and the notion that for this martial arts production it is just screams wrong setup to me. If the set isn't bright enough then you need more light, or a more appropriate camera. If you must use your existing camera and lenses, then getting the light level up is important.

Ryan - this is a very simple project. I fail to see what it's causing so much grief. If I were doing it there would be hardly any advance prep. I'd turn up with the right kit, I'd talk to them, and we'd start shooting pretty quickly. After shot one, we'd chat and change things. Setup wise, you're just not going to get all pan angles identical distances, so subject distance will be very variable, so your DoF must be deep enough to get it all in the frame in focus. Focus set on the median position and away you go.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Newer dslr have autofocus with facial tracking, camcorders have large dof, you need to backup, change your angle, or establish boundaries for their movement. Like Josh is saying this low end stuff with low expectations.

You are going to keep finding these type of problems because you're too passive and are not in control. This is your typical wing it as you go along type of stuff.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thanks. I'll just run the gain higher than I use to, to get a deeper DOF without going too dark then, if that's better.

I was able to pull focus before on other projects, but that's when actors were hitting their marks, where as with this, they are going all over the place, so it's tough.

This is one of the reasons why I shot it from a perpendicular angle before because then the two fighters keep the same distance from the camera, while moving left to right, and stay in the same focus area. But if that type of shot is not artistic enough, then I could try getting a deeper DOF from a less perpendicular angle.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You need to use the peaking, so that you can pull focus by eye, this allows you can see where the focus is. Ir's even easier if your camera had a colour option on the peaking.

This is all standard stuff, on documentaries, sports and news and current affairs.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Yes for sure, I just don't have focus peaking on the camera. But I remember reading that magic lantern has it, so if that's true, I can try putting that on the camera and see.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Unless you're got a highly effective auto focus, not having this feature probably limits your camera for any serious video work.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh well I don't have autofocus on the current camera I am using. But I never liked autofocus before, cause I worked with a couple of DPs that used before but it would fail or fall behind quite a few times though, so I didn't think it was any better, but maybe.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Excellent because this is good experience.

Understandable as they’re paying rent, or at lease the electric and heating bills, on the place and need to get clients in so they’re stressed.

Lay a rope across the mat just out of frame and tell them if they cross that like you’ll cut their legs off!

Cell phones since at least before 2014 should be able to Zoom with no problem. Between the three of you there should be three cell phones so surly one of them will have zoom capability. There have been umpteen posts over several days about how you can’t see the other side of the arm (or whatever). There needs to be another cam… somehow!

For a cheap B-roll phone tripod, get a handle off of a push broom, one that unscrews, and tape the phone to the handle at the hight you want and leave your cam on the tripod wide. Or, if it’s possible one can still reach the controls, reverse the rolls.

The guys are getting nervous because nothing is working. This video gig is taking too long.
“If you want it bad, you get it bad!”
This isn’t Hollywood!
At this point it doesn’t have to be a thing of beauty.

YES! As a director one has to get used to compromise and be creative (fast and cheap).

If it isn’t one thing, it’ll be something else. One has to be a problem solver and get past the road blocks.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. Well I don't have a tripod for a cellphone and don't want it to look handheld though, which is why I didn't consider a cellphone before.

I did put tape down and told them not to cross it but it kept getting crossed, and it's hard for them to control that during the moves. Or even if they get close to it, if I pan down far enough the tape is scene anyway in the frame, if they go down to the ground and it wasn't planned... So maybe I shouldn't use tape then?

Well I am editing the latest shoot now, and how bad is jump cutting for some things though? I've seen in movies before where it's the style, so would work in something like this do you think if I made it the style?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

If they go down on the floor just shout cut. Tell them that they have to know what they're going to demonstrate and go no further. Either that, or fade out (or something else) and go onto the next demo in the video using some sort of audio as part of the link. If you do this once, you should do it every time.

You can improvise a support for the cell phone, perhaps using a mic stand, there are all kinds of clips around in the market for phones. Magic arms are also great for putting stuff up.

Again, you need to roll with what you've got as the director and use it to best effect.

Jump cutting can work, just so long as it's been established as a style for the video. With modern videos there are lots of tools in the inventory, just be consistent. You should be able to judge if it works yourself.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

There are a couple Best Buy stores in Saskatoon that might have a tripod and camera holder [Edit: meant phone holder] that would work for you in this case.
https://stores.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/sk/saskatoon

Just noticed an ad for a phone-gimbal and tripod on this web site that would be a nice upscale solution.

There is a $15 tripod with a spreader in Regina - too bad it's so far away. Looks nice for the money. What, ~ 250 miles? Bummer.
https://www.usedregina.com/classifie...Stand_35063718

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

That's true, I just feel that since it's there project, they should put in for it, especially since I don't think someone trying to be professional like me, should shoot on a cellphone. And I am already buying other equipment anyway for other things. But is that the wrong attitude?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Feature films have been shot on a cell phone. In this case use it as a B camera, you're making a video for free for use on the internet, so I wouldn't get up tight about using a cell phone.

Get a GoPro if it makes you feel any better.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, actually the gopros seem to have more barrel distortion than cellphones. So I guess I will stick with a cellphone then as B camera.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You should be able to use your NLE to remove barrel distortion. I gather the latest Go Pro has alternative options for angle of view.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Well if I do that in the NLE though, then I have to zoom into the picture, which means I will have to shoot further back and loose more pixels then that way. I haven't tried the latest gopro.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Maybe. You're both getting something out of this, so it depends. More on this later.

There is value in you doing this promotional video which can, in turn, help make for future paying gigs. Not only that, but you’re getting valuable training here from successful professionals have made a living doing this and that’s worth something to you. At least it would be to me.

Speaking of being professional, my older iPhone 6 (a hand-me-down from my wife who gets the newer stuff) does 60fps and your cam does 30fps, so wouldn’t the 60fps be useful in a shot? One of the martial arts potential clients viewing this promo video will never know how the video was shot so “looking professional” in the end product doesn’t matter at all, it will be the “story” you told that matters. And how well the story was told. How professional you look to the martial arts video clients probably doesn’t matter at this point, either, but how creative you can be to come up with work-arounds will.

As an example of storytelling, this video story by Iohan Gueorguiev is really good. He is no professional videographer (as can be seen) or a director, but, his storytelling is great. And, it was made using his smart phone. “I want to see the world: The North (1 of 2)” A documentary of a bike ride from the shore of the Arctic Ocean (Tuktoyaktuk, near the MacKenzie river delta, Northwest Territories) to British Columbia. Almost 1.7 MILLION views There are a lot of good ideas in this video.
Every so often we read about a prospective client who looks for what gear the tog is using order to decide if they will be hired or not but I don’t think we’re there yet.

Brian mentioned about using a light stand but since you don’t have one but that would be nice to have in the kit anyway. Every videographer has kit they don’t use all the time but may be helpful at some point so you never can tell when the time will come. If you remember Paul R Johnson’s closet picture in Post #299, his closet is pretty full of gear, and even as a hobbyist I’ve got a lot of kit in my closet and scattered around the house ('cuz the closet is full).

Personally, I think a handheld phone shot of the important fast moving detail that’s needed will be not only just fine but necessary to tell the story properly. Because what is being videoed is moving fast the hand-held part won’t even be noticed. The viewer will be fixed on what is being shown and not if the “cam” is handheld. This is a martial arts story, not Hollywood.

Question: Where do people in Saskatoon advertise their stuff for sale on-line? Locally we have Craigs list but it doesn’t seem to be used there.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Some stuff is on Craigslist once in a while. There is some once in a while on kijiji as well. I can look around. And maybe the video will still turn out well hopefully.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I was talking about removing barrel distortion, which won't change your image size. However, I suspect you're using this term for the wide view, which is different.

If you wish to do this a 4k camera can be zoomed in to create an acceptable HD image from the original size.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay I wasn't thinking 4K, just HD. In my NLE, it removes barrel distortion by stretching out the image more, which means it has to zoom in therefore. But is that the wrong way of doing it?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I expect there's some changes. it's personal taste if it's objectionable.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

This is a story … plus a promotion AND a sales pitch, all-in-one!

All good stories start out with an introduction, the opening lines, to get the reader hooked. Authors study openings and opening lines for a good reason.
The YouTube video starts out with the title: “I want to see the world: The North”, which is already a bit of a hook. Good title. The viewer clicks on the arrow to watch it and the opening shows our hero, a guy on a bike riding in a snowstorm yelling with someone who asks “What’s your name?” We learn the rider's (and author's) name. "Where are you going? We learn where the rider is going and all in a matter of seconds. What a great opening! Followed by another good clip (after the advertisements).

The big question is, what’s the opening of the martial arts video going to do that will get the viewer hooked?

Idea:
After the opening title (whatever) have a max 2 or 3 seconds showing the attacker getting knocked down by the victim.
Screen goes black or short transition to black?

Question: How did this happen?

Answer (explanation video) by the martial arts guru:
Now comes all the video you’ve been working on that shows how this was done or how to do the martial arts stuff. This is the sell part.
Every story has an ending. “Don’t be the victim! Learn how to defend yourself at …… Studio!
Ending by asking for the sale: Sign up and Start Today!

One problem: What, the same big guy who was knocked to the ground explains this martial art services??? Probably not a good idea. Need another actor here because we don’t want the Attacker selling his services to explain how he got K.O.ed. Maybe have the attacker wearing a black jacket but a white shirt when doing the explanation. Anyway, some kind of change there to make it look realistic.

Brainstorm by Casting Director: Heck, with the cam on wide then the videographer could act as the attacker!!!
The Attacker hits the Red Button (roll cam!) then runs to attack his victim.

Excellent. The more I think about this the more I like this idea.
Nothing against Ryan, this is called Creative Casting!
And it isn't the first time an actor played two parts; however, its probably the first time the videographer/director played a part.
We’re not only short on gear, we’re short on actors! Think creatively!

Edit, Sequel: Ooops! Sorry to say but there was a mis-communication in the opening-acting scenario and we now have an opening for a videographer and a director.
Edit #2: Another intro option, have the person doing the assaulting K.O. the victim then go to black with "Don't become a victim" or "How to not become a victim" (something like that) then move on to the regular promo demonstration video.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thank you for the advice.

Well I tried doing voice over, over the video, and my fear turned out to be correct, that it take him longer to explain how do to the moves, compared to him pausing to talk while explaining them in camera. So now I have to slow down the moves to make them long enough so he can explain them. But do I use twixtor for that? Also would the slow motion appear forced, since I am only doing it to give him enough time to explain the moves? What do you think?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

The slow motion you ruled out earlier? Sigh.

Are you in charge or not Ryan.

A voice over that is longer than the real action is simply too long - so cut it down. You are letting these two idiots tell you how to do everything. They are just no good at story telling. Everything they do is random, unreleased and uncontrolled. You are their lap dog trying to recover a decent product from a poorly planned and managed idea that seems to flow badly.

We've told you over and over again to stop this. Training videos when well done are formulaic. Usually show, then explain, then show again. Slow motion can be good for things that cannot be seen in normal speed. I did a magicians one years ago, where they were making things appear and disappear, and we used slomo to show how the magician put five thimbles on his fingers in a very quick movement. In real time it was not seen at all. In yours, you have a full body to watch, so if something cannot be seen, it's probably shot from the wrong angle. Does slomo help, or hinder? You NEVER use slomo in this way because the voice over is too long. If the words are critical so you cannot fir the movement, then video the voice over, so it's a talking head that then cuts to the movement and back to the talking head. First semester stuff!

Take control, or give up - you really are at this decision point.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, we never learned to do a martial arts training video and then explain the moves, semester wise.

I think for the rest of the video I am going to have to do everything in one take, and no cutting cause every time I try to do a cut, it doesn't match. So I think it all has be done in one take.

I will do the talking interview head, explaining it, then cut back but I hope his words match up enough to what was shot though. I guess it's just hard for me to take control of something, where I don't even know what they want or what it's about. It's their field so if I take control and try to script the whole thing myself, I think they will disagree with it though.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

It's a matter of first principles, there are loads of subjects that you won't have been taught, so you need to work them out in the real world. There appears to be quite a few martial arts videos online, so you can use them to work out the best methods.

If matching action is an issue without multi cameras, don't try, make it very obvious that you're not trying. Get the guys to repeat the key part of action again (slowly if need be), so the viewers can see it (I assume they would do this in a class).. This is an instructional video, not a kung fu movie

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. Well a lot of the martial arts videos online appear to be handheld which makes for a lot more movement without being restricted. A lot of them are done in one take too. Should I perhaps just go handheld then with one take only for the editing? As for matching, I don't have multiple cameras, just the one still, so I can't match the different takes, cause they do them too differently each time.

It seems like the more I cut, the more mismatches there will be. So I think for the rest of them they have to be shot in one take. One video I saw will do crash zooms from close to wide, to wide to close, etc. But how does one know when to do the crash zooms, unless those videos, the martial artists were able to rehearse the same moves down to the T, unlike mine?

But I think after this, this will be the last non-scripted project I do. I think I am just better off doing scripted projects, with actors, who do not mind doing a lot more takes in comparison, and who are use to hitting marks better, and don't mind redoing the same blocking over and over again, if that makes sense. I think this is going to be my last non-fictional project.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I'm not sure why you object to shooting hand held, good handheld is no worse than some of the gimbal shots you've used in your films. It's also used by many of the top feature film directors.

This is a simple film. if you can't manage something like this, you're going to be very limited in what you can direct in the drama world.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

This is just wrong Ryan. If you cannot think on your feet to be able to do this simple project, maybe you need to just stop. You don't have the kit or the skills for something quite basic, so your scripted stuff will be even harder. This is madness. I think most of us learned with one camera and developed our hand-held ability that grew gradually. You want to use tools but are not willing to spend time developing even basic skills.

I fear we are wasting our time now. You reject all our advice if it differs from your already set in stone plan.

You must perhaps start to consider if you have the right career in mind? Frankly, I think many people have dropped away from trying to help you because it is clear its pointless. We are getting nowhere.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh well, I was told not to do handheld before, because in past projects, I was told it looked bad, and not to use it.

Well so far I find these projects that are less scripted with the shots less planned out to be more difficult. But when working with actors before, they were far better at taking direction in comparison. Plus when I think on my feet it presents other problems.

The martial artists, need their full bodies to be shown, so I cannot set any markers for them, without them being seen then. I am not sure what to do then, to try to keep them from going out of frame. Also I don't know how they are going to move, since they keep moving differently when responding to each other. I guess I just feel that scripted projects with actors are more predictable in my experience so far.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I think many decided that weeks ago and have just given up trying to help.

Roger

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Sorry for making it sound like I am rejecting advice. I don't mean to to do that. I really appreciate all the advice. I just find that some of the suggestions have other potential problems in them, that need to be addressed before proceeding that's all. Is that bad of me?

Alright, well if I need to take my own initiative, from now on, I am going to make sure I have the perfect master shot of them, and they have to get everything right in one take. Because I cannot get any matches in closer up shots. So I am going to get them to do perfect masters. They will be further away in the masters to stay in frame, but hopefully that's okay.