What is this production worth?
 

I often read posts asking for help in determining how much to charge for a video project. It always seems to be a hypothetical video though that has yet not been produced.

The responses often say that it depends on your level of ability and your market. So rather than ask a "how much" for a hypothetical video, I have a real video that I submit for your consideration.

It is a training video for a piece of equipment used in a manufacturing environment. It is 10 minutes long. It can viewed here:

http://jeffemery.com/barberan

A high speed internet connection is recommended.

My question is for those who produce training videos who care to answer. If you were to produce THIS video with final delivery on DVD and VHS (1 copy of each) how much would YOU charge? For those that respond, would you also include your location so I can get an idea of how prices vary in different locales.

I am not asking for any critique. I'm merely asking what this video is worth in your neck of the woods.

Thanks

Jeff

$1000/finished minute is not all that uncommon.

Just my .02 worth.

-gb-

People throw out the "$1000/ finished minute" quite easily, but it's far more complicated than that. The content, the complexity of capturing it, and posting are what have a greater impact on the cost.

You could easily quote a 10-minute project at $10,000 and find yourself 100% short of actual cost. Then what?

That was a very straight forward video, shot in one location. From what I saw, it was hardly worth $10,000.

Jay,

I agree with you totally about pricing not being so simple. But that is also why I posted a link to an existing video and asked based on that video, with any and all of its strengths or weaknesses, what would you charge in your area. I know in my area that no client would be willing to pay that much for that basic, straight forward training video.

There is no right or wrong answer. And I have no illusions about it being one of the greatest training videos ever produced.

I'm just trying to get some honest opinions about the what other video producers would charge to produce that video.

What would you charge?

Jeff

This is how I would see it breaking down.

1 day shoot 800-1200 probably the low end without sound.
script - 500, although I'm guessing with something technical like this they probably supplied it so probably a script consultation of 100.
Narration - 500, although you narrated it yourself so wiggle room.
Music - 250
2 days edit - 2400
20% mark up for odds, ends and cushion.

So my estimation would be in the 5-6k range for this project. Cut out the scripting and narrator costs and I'd be looking at 4-5K.

Here in Western Minnesota, I'd have bid about $3k-$4k for that video, assuming it was well defined before production began. If they had a production comapany come out from Minneapolis, it would probably run $7,500 to $10k.

Here's a pair of videos I shot for a total of $1,500 (but it was for a non-profit.) I didn't make any money on that project.

http://www.famousdavispro.com/page/ccs.aspx

I'd consider that pretty reasonable.
Just to add another perspective, for everyone, I'd bid as follows:
1 Day shoot - basic HD camera (HVX200 or HD100, etc...) + lighting: $600-800
Script - $500-$1000 unless they supplied it (giving space for several re-writes once they hate the first two versions).
Narration - $500
Music - $250
1 day editing - $400
1 day visual effects - $400
100% markup for profit/cushion.

...which would also put me in the $5,000 range.

Yep - $5K - saving factor was single location.

Gotta agree with Greg, $1000 per finished minute is what I charge. That rate is fairly common.

I'm more in line with Jay - while $1,000 (up to 2,000) per finished minute may be a rule of thumb, it shouldn't be the basis for pricing an actual product.

In Jeffs example it was one location, few set-ups, no location sound and I may be wrong, but it didn't look like there was supplemental lighting. There was a straightforward script and shot list and not much need for fancy editing, tough editing decisions (since it was pretty step-by-step) or graphics other than CGs.

That 10 minute finished product cannot compare with another 10 minute video that has multiple locations, location sound, location lighting, on camera interviews, lots of editing of the interviews to get a smooth story, complex script, travel, high end graphics etc.

$1,000/min taken as gospel screws your client in some cases and screws you in others. If it screws the client, you (and perhaps you collegues in the area) won't get repeat business. If it screws you, you can't survive (or maybe you deserve it! ;-)

My $0.02!

Are you saying you charge a flat rate of $1k/minute or do you find that's what your quotes average out to be?

I'm not saying this is the rule of thumb, each situation/job is different, but as a guideline, a $1000 per finished minute is fairly standard. I was only agreeing with Greg based on my experiences as well.

I'm getting ready to do a 30 and 60 minute dvd and I have to budget accordingly based on what the client is trying to achieve. Now granted you could say in theory this would cost 90k based on my earlier statement, but like I also said each job is unique.

Ultimately there are a lot of factors that go into budgeting, but for $30,000 for a 30 minute show/dvd you can still make some $$$$ depending on how much work has to go into the project. If you charge $30,000 and you have to travel to 4 different lo-cals around the world, hire 4 shooters, sound guys, producers, editors, lawyers and so on...$30,000 may not be enough.

On the other hand if it's you and maybe a grip shooting the entire thing, and editing it yourself, then maybe you can do it for $15,000 and still make money.

Each situation is unique.

I appreciate the input.

Jeff

Jeff, I'm a fellow 419'er I grew up in Toledo, How's that snow?
I went to CCHS and UT. I still have a ton of family and friends there.

In my area, which is about halfway between Toledo and Ft Wayne, IN, we got about 8 or so inches over last night/early moring today. Nice packable stuff great for building snowmen.

It's snowing again now but the prediction is for less than and inch more.

Here's a winter time joke.

What's the difference between a snowman and a snowwoman?

BTW, I use to be a 305'er. That is until they changed the area code for Vero Beach.

Jeff

I am fairly new to making videos, my question when reading this is, why is a wedding video requiring two cameras, two operators etc. around 2000-2500 dollars for a 30 minute video, and a 10 minute single camera instructional video is 3000-10,000 dollars? Is it a matter of what the market can bear? A level of difficulty? Not trying to hijack the thread, just curious. also, Jeff, how much did you actually charge the customer, if I may ask?

The instructional video that Jeff showed is most like your last example so take your $15,000 for 30 minutes divide it by 3 and you have 5K for ten minutes. So I agree its all in depth of the project and 1k per minute would not be a good rule of thumb for this particular video.

I didn't mean it to be a cast in stone price... more like a starting point in the evaluation of each production. Obviously, a simple production would require less. Every market is different also.

-gb-

Ok, no worries. Just couldn't see anyone telling a client a flat rate per minute for a product. :)

Excellent question!

A wedding video is a much simpler beast to shoot than taking an idea or a script and turning it into a video. It's basically a 1 hour event. You pop up your cameras, mic the groom or bride, shoot, and go home to edit. If you are shooting the reception, you show up for an hour and do the same thing. Sure it requires some planning, but once you've done a couple, you've kind of got the gist of it.

Before I get flamed, yes, I've shot wedding videos before. :)

Here's a wedding video:
2 shooters + camera rigs for a half or full day: $250-$500 each
Editing - a straightforward cut between two cameras is easy, a good editor can cut it in half a day. Add a half day for dropping in music, FX and titles: $400-$1000
DVD mastering/burning time: $250 + $X per disc.

Perception of value is part of it, but that's the gist.

Someting I haven't really seen mentioned in this thread explicitly, so I'll state the obvious: there are two sides to pricing; what it costs and what it's worth to the client. The "what its worth" side is the more interesting of course.

This has to do with benefits to the client. For instructionals that may the potential savings in training, labour flexibility, production errors or even limiting liability.

The more you address potential benefits in your video/script the more it will be worth. If it is just a documented step-by-step, it is going to be limited. It depends on the clients intended goals and if you can 'upsell' this to a better product.

If they'd recently had many production errors or there is a legal side to their problem, you could possibly charge a multiple of the $1000/min.

The reason for a per minute average is that we're not business consultants, and we cannot get in to accounting to tally all (potential) benefits for every possible project.

The thing is that if you engage the client and have an eye out for his needs, you will have much more "upwards potential" then if you just produce "standard" step-by-steps for which you are more bound to a cost-based calculation. This is also because you will have little to set you apart from the competition.

For this particular video I believe around the $5k mark is the maximum if you produce it from proposition to finish. If you're just shooting and doing (straigtforward) editing, maybe even as low as $2k.

George/

This is the exact reason I no longer shoot weddings. Now we're 100% business and organizations. Besides wha't already been mentioned, here's my take on the difference:

1. Weddings are easier to book - I can easily shoot one wedding a week. Getting business work takes more work, they are fewer and futher between. So the price difference can be made up in quantity.

2. Weddings take much less pre-production time. There are no scripts, no long meetings (well, there shouldn't be.)

3. CG and animation requirements are nil, or much less than business video.

4. There's more money available. In business you're typically dealing with managers and budgets, they don't have a personal connection to the money. Weddings are typically paid for by someone's own hard-earned cash.

5. There's a lot more competition for weddings - including amateurs and beginners and that drives down the price.

And most importly:

6. Everying, from apples to jet airplanes, are priced mainly on what the market will bear.

I typed a lengthy reply, clicked on "Preview Post" and was asked to sign in again, and the posting was lost!

So briefly, anyone submitting bids without a script is doing himself and the client a disservice. It's like asking a contractor to give you a bid on building your house without him seeing the blueprints.

When people ask me, "How much does it cost to make a video?" I ask them, "How much does it cost to build a house?"

One thought on the wedding video comparison. (Full disclosure - I do not to weddings but have shot numerious live events)

One thing to consider is risk of being able to complete the job for the client - there are no re-takes in a live event like a wedding. You blow the ring exchange or the kiss at the altar and you have one p-o'd client. Equipment failure, Uncle Ernie stepping in front of your camera, sun going behind a cloud, accidently bumping the tape door open, tape problems etc. All things that are easily and cheaply dealt with in a commercial or industrial shoot - disaster in a wedding.

Hat's off to our collegues who make a living with weddings.

A note on the 1-2k per minute rule of thumb. I like to use that quote when someone asks me "How much will it cost to make a video for my company?" They are always a bit surprised, but it gives me a 'base expectation' to whittle away or build upon.

"Look a thirty second spot can cost a hundred thousand dollars for TV... and that's just producing it. A ninety minute 'archive' of an event can cost a grand if it's just 'hit record' and forget it. It really all depends on the script, and production factors like locations, sound, lighting, graphics - so let's sit down and talk about your needs, shall we?"

Jeff,

I can't get the video to work. Nor do any of the links on the page.

When I go to your homepage, the sample videos will not play either.

The Windows media player is sort of greyed out and un-responsive.

Using Internet Explorer.

Exactly. I've had potential clients come to me thinking they can get their 60-minute video done for under $1000 ("Gee, I've got my own video camera.").

On the other side of that same coin, I once lost a job because I didn't charge enough!

A lot depends on how well established you are, if you are just starting out then the experience is worth more than the money and you don't want to over charge in case you don't get it.

For example i have a shoot this weekend for a music video thats going on MTV2 and im using the HDW750 with a steadicam master both of which i have never used before. Im used to using my glidecam V8 rig which is a considerably smaller rig, and the only way to progress to the big rigs is to get the jobs like this one. I was offerd £200 per day (around $400 per day) which for a steadicam operator is buttons and i know im getting bumped but the experience is worth more to me than the money.

My advice would be to be reasonable with your pricing to begin with. As you get more work and more experience you can raise your rates to suit.

BTW im surprised they let you go ahead with the video without asking for a quote first.

Andy.

I could be wrong Andy, but I got the impression that Jeff had already charged for the video but wanted our opinion on rates so that he could fine tune his rates for future projects, based on feedback from this actual project (after the fact).

-gb-

Lol I see, he never mentions having charged them already. I got the impression he was looking for a number to throw at them.

I thought somethig wasn't adding up.

Andy.

I don't think so.

In truth the effort they take to do well is nearly identical.

The actual difference is that one is responsible for producing REVENUE for the comissioning party - and the other is not.

The value of a wedding video is largely in rememberence and nostalgia. And there's a limit on what people will pay for that.

The value of a business video is measured in it's FINANCIAL impact. If it doesn't impact sales or savings at a level significantly greater than it cost to make - making it was a mistake.

So the relative costs are a reflection of the perceived economic VALUE of the work - never on what it actually costs in time or effort to do one verses the other.

I definitely did not want to start a controversy when I asked for the differences in pricing for a wedding video versus an instructional video. My reason for asking is because currently the only money i am earning from video is selling instructional videos that I make, and I am considering going into video full time, and I am interested in whatever I can do to make a living. I do all my shoots by myself, I use two cameras, wish I could justify a third. I am hesitating at trying to break into the wedding video for one main reason. I have a technical way of thinking, it works well with instructional's and should work in a documentary style video. My fear with weddings is my possible inabilities to do a cinema style video, and the ability to make the entire wedding, and specifically the bride, look good no matter what really happens at the wedding. I would think a wedding video is much harder to shoot, yet they seem to bring less money, hence my question. This thread has been extremely enlightening for me, I hope I didn't hijack it too much. Thanks to everyone :)

Allen, i understand your worries when it comes to weddings. Regular people dont understand the work and equipment involved with any type of video production.

I'v shot one wedding video myself and what i took from the experience was.....if i never shoot a wedding again i'll die a happy man. Thats not because it went badly, it went without a hitch but the thought of dealing with anoying people for the rest of my life did not appeal to me.

Don't get me wrong there is a good living in weddings but it isn't for everyone. I chose to work on productions as a freelance camera/steadicam operator because you don't have to deal with customers, you just turn up and do your job .

And if your wondering whats the best way into freelance cam work i suggest spending a lot of time online in places like this. Iv met some great people online and worked with them including this site. The MTV2 job i have this weekend is from a Director i met on bebo of all places.

In my personal opinion weddings are under paid and a lot of stress

Andy.

Well, someone had to call me out. :)

I can only share my experience, having produced several wedding videos along the way of a career in corporate/commercial video. I'm sure there are many exceptions as well...

But the truth is...
Wedding videos are very simple, very straightforward. It is an event video that an experienced crew can bang off with only a couple hours of pre-production. Short of bringing in cranes, dollies, steadicams and having the option of retakes, weddings cannot (rare exceptions) require the effort that your typical corporate production does, simply because of the fact that all your shooting is done in a single hour, no matter what. By the nature of the event, you are limited to a maximum amount of effort.

I don't mean any disrespect to wedding videographers, they (in my opinion) certainly have the most STRESSFUL job in the video world and many are absolute artists in their own right!

I agree with you on that one. There is a certain perception of value for wedding videos, which sadly is lower than that for wedding photos, despite there being 10x the cost of gear and 10x the amount of man hours involved on the video side, brides (from what I've seen) will usually spend less than half what they do on photos on a video.

Thanks to everyone who offered up their pricing opinion as requested in the original post of this thread.

As for what I charged. I was rewarded handsomely but not all came in the form of cash so it would be misleading to give that price, not knowing the additional compensation I received.

I believe an accurate price for this video in my region is $2000 to $2500 as is. I believe if I had told the client that it would be $5000 or even $3500 to produce this straight-forward step-by-step instructional video, I would have simply priced myself right out of a job.

For you information. I did everything except appear on camera. I did the research. I wrote the script. I shot, directed, ediited, and narrated. I had approximately 20 hours into that production. I am a one man business (although I do utilize another shooter when needed) . I maintain a home based office. I have little overhead so I can still turn a profit at a lower price. My business expenses are primarily licensing (business), liability insurance (a business policy), supplies, and gear maintenance and procurement.


ATTN: Tim Polster

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Jeff

i think givng number is useless since it can even vary by the place you live.
some basic rules could you help to build a multiplication factor you can use.

- first you need to find the hourly/daily rate you want/need to make a decent life. If the budget is under this limit, then you are loosing your time or money. That is something usually overlooked, since most of people think that a bad pay is better than no pay at all. this is partially wrong. If you give a real value to your time, it is a lot easier to work.

-then you can find what the project is costing (renting equipment, travel, purchasing stuff etc...) , this will add to the first number.

- then you need to find the value regarding your customer.
In the case you mentioned that you give a master (dvd and vhs). That means you loose control of how it will be used (daily/once a year ?) and how many copies will be done. Any product sold on the market has its price heavily linked on the number of item produced (should it be a chinese toy or hollywood movie). So if you suspect the training clip will be seen by 1 or 1000 person, it must accordingly impact the price.

Actually,

I was going to mention in my previous post that the training video is for use at a single workcenter and for a very limited number of personnel who would be authorized to operate the equipment.

Had it been intended for use on several machines by several operators at several plants, the price I would charge would be significantly higher. Just like print advertising. Same ad, small town newspaper... lower price. Same ad, New York Times... higher price.

I did not mention that because someone would likely have responded that the effort to produce the video was the same so the cost to the client should be the same.

While I am extremely thankful to all who responded, I just asked what I thought was a very simple question regarding a very specific video in order to see what a specified product might yield in various locations. Somewhere it turned into a thread full of theory and conjecture. Even so, I do appreciate the varying viewpoints.

Jeff

My situation is pretty similar to yours - home office, just myself as employee and occasional help as needed. It looks like you're going for about $100-150/hour of your time if you put in 20 hours on that project, and that's pretty close to what I've done - covers my immediate expenses, equipment purchases, and still gives me $40-50/hour or so of personal income.

I like to base my quotes on the time I have to put into the project, and let the customer decide whether it's worth it to them or not - I don't like to play games and try to figure out how many copies they are going to sell or how often they'll use it. If they are going to use it a lot, hopefully they will also be interested in putting more effort into the production, which means more work for me, which is a good thing.

On the whole weddings vs. commercial, I do both right now because I need the business. I've done some commercial work recently that paid well, and that will probably force my wedding prices up, but I'm not going to stop doing them - I actually enjoy the work and find the people I work with to be friendly and willing to pay for my effort. Maybe because I work too cheap and they know it... (-;

I guess my policy is not to stress about it too much - just quote each job as it comes based on what makes sense to me, and if I get the job and realize I could have made more, it raises my prices the next time. I\'ve been doing this ever since I got out of school and was trying to land jobs at $10/hour with just a GL2 and a Mac G4, nothing else. I got a few, cranked them out, turned the cash back into gear, and there you go, you\'re off and running...

Jeff,

I went to Windows update and my problem is solved.

I would have guessed $2,000 for the video.

How about the lighting. Do you and the client decide to let the machine lights be sort of dominant and the worker be under lit?

That was a large area to light, but overall, the video had a dark feel imho, especially with the subject not getting much fill.

This would drive the price down as little to no lighting was added for the shoot.

But you are correct that certain pricepoints will drive clients away because they have a ceiling, no matter what the quality.

When I think of some of the stuff I have done as a one man band, $1,000 per minute sounds pretty far off!

But, one man shows can price lower and get away with it due to lower overhead.

Thanks for sharing

Quote:

>I believe an accurate price for this video in my region is $2000 to $2500 as >is. I believe if I had told the client that it would be $5000 or even $3500 to >produce this straight-forward step-by-step instructional video, I would have >simply priced myself right out of a job.


Nothing wrong with your analysis or charges.

You might be right. But consider that you also might be wrong. Not because the video is other than "straight forward" - but because how simple or complex it is might not matter at all in terms of the IMPACT your work might have had on your client\'s business.

What if currently during training/turnover of paper cutter operators, they expect to, for example, ruin 10 rolls of paper? And say each roll costs them $750

If your training film reduces that to ZERO - then they got $7,500 worth of positive benefit IN THE FIRST YEAR --- and paid you $2k to do it!

And they can expect to save that EVERY YEAR for the life of your video. Pretty good deal for them, huh?

Don\'t get me wrong, you feel great having made $2k and you should.

My point is that if you look only at what you are PAID, and not the potential IMPACT of your work on the client\'s bottom line, you MIGHT be leaving a lot of money on the table. Money that can help you secure better gear - hire extra help - and make your life easier.

What you CHARGE is one thing and it\'s always important to think about.

What your work can DO for the client is something that we DON\'T often consider - and might be the key to actually building a more prosperous business.

FWIW.