Wasn't it true that the current XDCAM HD cameras actually down converted to 4:2:0 before the live signal was sent out SDI? I remember at one point there were a lot of threads about this. The signal was still uncompressed but the chroma sampling was reduced for whatever reason. I hope what I remember was just false information at the time.

If it was true however I wonder if SONY would limit the SDI output on this camera the same way.

As to the 4:2:2 recording mode... I do think it is something that SONY could decide to do. I mean the media and camera itself could handle it no problem at all. It all comes down to how good they want to make this camera.

If SONY is really trying to target this camera at HVX200 users which it pretty much is then it may make sense for them to also have the 4:2:2 mode. This would mean the camera would pretty much kill the HVX200 is almost every single aspect.

HD-SDI
longer recording times
cheaper media.
full resoultion 4:2:2 recording
1/2" chips

These are all things the HVX200 does not have.

If the SONY does not have the 4:2:2 mode then I'm sure there will be debates and heated arguments all over this and other forums about how the HVX200 is still better because it records 4:2:2 color right to the card. Regardless if it is better or not the focus of the argument will be there and many people may be afraid of 4:2:0. Many of us already know 4:2:0 is not bad at all but it is hard to try to convince some people of that.

Given past experience, I think we can assume that any information as to whether the camera is definitely 4:2:2 or not is unlikely to be reliably accurate... even if apparently from the horses mouth!

They claim that the newer cameras will be shooting in the 4:2:2 50mb mode as well.

Sony often try and protect their higher end gear, but I hope they add 4:2:2 50 Mbit/s to this camera because it wouldn't really affect the sales of the largest, shoulder mount cameras.

It would just make this the best "palmcorder" ever made... on paper at least. It would also make it the weapon of choice for B camera shooting in many circumstances.

A nice small shoulder mount version would be good too! Like the HD100 line.

Mostly people in broadcasting...

Actually I was thinking more the people who are new to the game and insist on trusting numbers and specs only.

The HDSDI specification requires 4:2:2 colorspace. If you record to disc, it has to be upsampled to 4:2:2 out the HDSDI port. The early information had us thinking the camera head was 4:2:0 and that even a live feed would still suffer the lack of chroma from the camera head. This is not true. It is indeed 4:2:2 sampling at the camera head.

As for the 50mb 4:2:2, that is a feature of the 2/3 full size camera shown at NAB. It is still my understanding that the forthcoming XDCAM EX camera will not offer that high of a data rate.

-gb-

Ok thanks for the updated info on the XDCAM head. It was actually your posts on the XDCAM forum that mentioned that the head may be 4:2:0. After searching that whole forum no mention was ever made of it actually processing 4:2:2 in the DSP.

You're right Thomas. There was initial confusion about this. I didn't find out otherwise until late November. And that came from Sony's CTO. I have a powerpoint slide here somewhere that even shows that signal chain, clearly labeling it as 4:2:2. I thought I posted a correction somewhere in the XDCAM forum after finding that out.

-gb-

Everything I heard initially was that this camera would offer 4:2:0 colorspace with a maximum bit rate of 35mb. This seemed to fit with Sony's current crop of HD stuff, offering a "low end" (cheaper with less quality), a "medium" (higher quality and a bit more cost) and a "high end" (very expensive but with very high quality). This is kind of the model that most video manufacturers use and it would be kind of surprising to see that changed.

However, I have been hearing rumors and hints that there may be more "surprises" in store before the XDCAM EX is released. So who really knows? I will say this, if for some reason Sony DOES put in 50mb 4:2:2 colorpace.....they will have a really hard time keeping this thing in stock anywhere.

I can't help but feel that a 50mbit palmcorder would bastardize sales of their own corporate / lowend-pro cameras.

If this thing does record 4:2:2 50mbit then it will be a better camera than the (more expensive) F330.

Surely no company in their right mind would redirect potential customers to an item with a lower margin?

hi there

This camera certainly seems to tick a lot of boxes as an advancement for the Z1..(which depite it's progessive chips, I never considered the V1 was... smaller 1/4" chips, smaller, more fiddly controls, step back for LCD placement etc)
I would however echo the reservations about it's size... the Z1 is heavy, once you add mic, large battery, mattebox etc... I use mine with a shoulder mount...but it is very front heavy.

While I love the form announced, which looks absolutely outstanding, I'd love it in shoulder form, or even semi-shoulder like say an XL2. but I guess they don't want to step on the ground of the current XDcam's... They are however out of my price bracket.

I do see though they have an HDV shoulder cam in the works too, which was one of my queries a few months back... While I doubt it will equal the quality of the XDcam EX, if it's a progressive Z1 in a shoulder mount body that may well do me..

Exciting times...

cheers
Gareth

What makes this here Sony beautiful is:

- 1/2" chips
- saves to flash cards!
- 4:2:0 is fine for green screen
- under 8k

Sony has finally woken up. This might be (finally) the first under 10k cam that's as good as super16mm film.

Bounce pass to Canon and Panny in the corner...will they put up a three or travel out of bounds...

What shoulder mount do you use?

Thanks,
Scott

What HDV shoulder cam are you referring to??

See the following: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91617

Scott, I use the Cavision shoulder mount with a Manfrotto Universal mount... This way I can swap it easily onto my Libec LS38 tripod with the same mount... Not ideal but works fine..... Camera is still very front heavy though!!!

Ray: Check out Boyd's post for info on the HDV shoulder cam...

I'm looking forward to this one..

regards
Gareth

Regarding the "hidden surprises" to be revealed, I'm sure hoping for 4 channels of audio and TC in/out.

I have held off on buying anything video and photo related short of an HD and some memory cards, specifically for this camera. I am all over it when it is announced. bye bye tape!

he he... Scott you better start buying those 500gb drives for archiving
before you get this cam.... :-)

I did buy a couple of those this past week :-) too cheap to pass up.

Unless Sony also releases an update to the F330 at the same time.

It won't happen. Several design limitations involved there. The new PDW-F355 will have the dual layer disc, along with other enhancements, but still won't record 50mb 4:2:2. That is being reserved for the high end XDCAM HD with 2/3 sensors.

-gb-

With humble nod to Greg's reply - if only I could delete the following... <g>

But even if they didn't, the F330's glass would be far superior, the form factor far more comfortable and the viewfinder way more useful. The 4:2:2 would be one more check box to match the HVX200 and demonstrate the ability to do chromakey at HD.

Having said that, I've heard that 35 Mbps 4:2:0 isn't as bad as it sounds - has anyone tried it?

Not only is it "not bad", but from everything I've heard it is really, really good. There was an article somewhere reviewing the 330 and 350 and it was compared to the Varicam favorably. I haven't used it, but from reading what professionals say about it....well it sounds quite good.

Pretty much everyone in the XDCAM HD forum here at DVINFO, myself included. I haven't done any chromakey, but others who have are quite surprised at how clean it keys. The real magic behind the 35mb setting is due to that fact that it's a variable bit rate. The camera's encoder throws all of its resources and bit allocation to the higher motion scenery while allowing it to dip lower for scenery that's showing little or no change. An all I frame codec, while easier on your computer, isn't all that efficient. Why would you want to allocate storage space in each frame to stuff that's not changing from the frames before or after it?

-gb-

Oops, my bad for being unclear about 'not bad'.

I should have said that I had heard that doing chromakey with 4:2:0 35 Mbps XDCAM-HD was not as bad as it sounds, as 4:2:0 would imply blocky or soft chromakeys.

Greg - hear you. The trick being that hopefully we can originate on an IBP frame format for efficiency, then transcode to an intermediate codec (ProRez 4:2:2 sounds good, though I may defer to Cineform).

Anyroadup, hopefully I can rent an F-330 for a weekend and try it with my ChromaFlex kit.

From experience I can say that 4:2:0 XDCAM HD produces keys that are easily perceptually as good as DVCProHD...

In fact XDCAM HD has MORE horizontal chroma resolution than DVCProHD (60i anyway) and has a nice 2x2 chroma block pattern that makes for very even edges.

All-in-all I'd easily put XDCAM HD and DVCProHD on a par in terms of quality – although the two compression techniques "shine" in different circumstances. Even at 35mbit XDCAM HD I have seen a slight softening in scenes with loads of motion (eg moving water, etc.) but to me it looks sharper than DVCProHD in scenes with lots of detail (and less motion).

Will soon be time to do a thread dedicated to this camera.

According to a Sony guy on a video clip link, they will do a press conference launch in July/Aug with shipping in Sept.

I have money now... can I wait until then to make my decision - F350 vs F330 vs HPX500 vs XDCAM EX....

Greg and others... let's talk motion. Do any of you shoot sports? I shoot high school football games. To get good shots you need to be fairly close to the action, and you are constantly panning the camera to follow the action. The players are moving constantly... it's an MPEG compression nightmare. DV has always been fairly decent, but HDV leaves a lot to be desired (lots of artifacts). I would imagine XDCAM would be much better... what is your experience? I would also imagine that DVCPRO HD would be great... but I haven't made the leap yet (and now I'm holding off to see the XDCAM EX).

Most of these games are at night, and the "Friday night lights" are not always bright enough... so low light performance is a another big factor.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Tom

Sorry for the delayed response, Tom. I missed this posting. Agreed that what you've seen with HDV in high motion. As was stated, if you get enough going on in a certain scene, you can break the encoder somewhat. But the VBR of 35mb does a good job of preventing this.

One thing we learned from the Texas HD Shootout last year, was the fact that normal playback doesn't reveal the softening so much. Viewing each frame individually will reveal some of the magic but that's not how most people watch the end result. I typically increase the shutter somewhat with high motion so that each frame has a bit more clarity and less motion blur for the encoder to deal with.

Low light performance is one thing that HD gives up compared to SD cameras of comparable sensor size and pixel count. So no, HD cameras are not the champions of low light the way the SD cameras are. However, some of the image manipulation controls can help minimize the problem somewhat. I really wish the XDCAM HD had a coring control like the XL2 has. That was very handy for clearing up chroma noise out of the darker regions in low light recording.

-gb-

Not ugly
 

I held this unit at NAB.
In Picture #7 you see the focus ring and it slides forward and back for auto or manual. I did notice the monitor is not like the V1 and it can't be used by an AC. I mentioned it to the designer that I thought it should be just like the V1 and flip around open for viewing from the side. This camera is far from ugly.
Michael Palmer

Thanks Greg. I can't wait to see some footage for myself.

Tom

The placement of the set white balance is in the same spot as Sony's professional broadcast cameras, which is where it should it. I love the inclusion of the three rings for focus, exposure and zoom. Does the focus ring have hard stops or does it spin like the Z1?

Someone mentioned Sony is supposed to be giving out the final details by July. Can't wait to hear more about this camera!

Reports from the mock-up and from the introductory blurb state that the 'pull-back' focus ring option will be a proper manual cam driven job with stops.

This is panning out (no pun intended) to be quite the camera. I can't wait to see some raw footage.