Ummm, that would be a no. (grin)

Glen, to be honest i dont think Red and the HPX is the target market for this unit..

to be honest, i think its targetted at those high end XLH1 and HVX users.. If it wasnt targeted at THESE users, then the formfactor itself would write it off as the formfactor alone can either make or break it..

To be honest, i think this is an "entry level" camcorder into XDCam workflow...

considering there is no XDCam disc drive, it has a fixed lens and looks to still use the Z1 batteries.. i dont see how this can be considered a fair competitor to these other cameras.. If anything, i would say that its competing against the JVC, HVX, and H1.. shooting each of tehir respective formats..

I also think the CCD/CMOS is of this size, simply because of the consistant issues people are having with 1/3 chip size and HDV
IMO, i think Sonys answer to low light performance is to increase the chip size. Pretty simple concept, and more than likely, this is the case.

Just becuase its a 1/2 size chip, doesnt mean for it to be on the level of competing with 1/2 ENG cameras.. theres no saying that it cant compete, but its not a substitue

Hi Peter,

I hear what you're saying... and basically I agree. But Sony still have to price the HDCAM EX accordingly, otherwise the gap between pro cameras and prosumer cameras will become so small that all aspiring indy filmmakers will go straight for the "high-powered" hardware.

The price of the HPX500 already threatens to make the Canon XL-1 obsolete I'd say.

Cheers
Glenn

Why wouldnt you? well there are many reasons.. I for one prefer its discreete form factor. Big enough for people to take notice, but not so big as to break my back. For events this is ideal. As is the price to the market i am targeting..
As for price, it WILL be more expensive.. no doubt, but the XDCam workflow is already in place.. the transition is much easier for most as opposed to DVCproHD which required copious amounts of grunt and storage space...
Again, why??? Well maybe the ENG formfactor isnt for your needs?
I know most of my wedding clients hire me becuase i DONT use an ENG type camera..
And finally, why shoot HDV with an H1 when you can shoot XDCam with this? Why lug around a laptop to capture uncompressed from yoru H1 when XDCam is perfectly acceptable?

Each camera has its uses.. no matter how old or new. no matter what size the imager may be.. no matter what teh price may be..

if the camera works for you good stuff.. if not, look elsewhere.. Sony dont need to sell these units... the units will sell themselves..

For me, the spec and form factor are enough for me to hold off on buying the A1 and an XLH1..
HDV never did it for me, which is why i ditched my Z1's.
The slow pace of P2 acceptance in windows basd NLE's such as premiere and vegas, and the convoluted way it works with FCP and Avid, defeated the purpose of direct media editing. That and the capacity issues of the cards themselves for the format in which is being recorded (dvcproHD@1080p)pretty much forced me away from the HVX. If cards were cheaper and bigger.. then it wouldnt have ben an issue.. but this seems to be what i need.. considering i can get an hour or so of footage on one card without sneezing.. and transfer that footage from card to laptop in under 20 minutes.. 4-5 times faster than realtime is a good enough transfer rate for me (Expresscard xfer vs PCMCIA )

The cost of P2 and the slow arrival of advantageous capacities will always keep the HPX above or "away" any HDV tape based unit when it comes to "bang for the buck"..

HPX cost in itself for storage and camera doesnt allow for the 2 to be compared.. Yes they can all be used, however you choose.. but theyre different beasts..

for Indy, fine, choose your weapon, but in the end, cameras have to pay themselves off..
Thats what it all comes down to.. and the HPX for indy work just doesnt cut it IMO simply due to the high price of acquisition, storage and NLE requirements. Its going to be an interesting year and those people like myself who stated that HDV was an interim "teething" format are being proven right as new and improved HD formats are being offered..

we saw it with DVCPRoHD and we saw JVC take on HDV itself.. we saw XDCam in disc format and its proven a workable solution and step from Digibeta. This is just another step in that evolution.

Im sure we'll also see newer cams using AVCHD soon enough as well.. but HDV has shown what it can and cannot do.
Now we are seeing solutions to that HDV "problem"

Of course all this is wild speculation, because Sony haven't mentioned a price point at all.

It does look like a lovely form factor with a proper (albeit fixed) lens and properly accessible controls - I hope Sony doesn't monkey around with it too much before delivery!

However, nobody in their right mind is going to pay more for this than for the HPX500, which I believe is priced cheaper than the F350...

While it's true that it looks like nice competition (depending on pricing) for the HVX200 and an alternative to some of us who still cringe at the idea of HDV, shouldn't we wait to see test footage before claiming "we have a tool which can virtually let us do anything we want in virtually any environment"?

Not trying to rain on anybody's parade, I'm as excited as anyone about this new model, but I've learned from passed releases that paper specs and real life operation do not always go hand in hand.

I'm especially interested about the EVF/LCD finders' resolution and reliability. If there was one thing that disapointed me about the operation of the HVX200 was the innacurate viewfinder / monitor on it. Though I understand why they can't put a nice high res finder in there, someone will eventually need to get creative and supply a viewfinder that will allow for critical focusing in run and gun situations while not breaking the bank. Or at least provide an alternative like the FU-1000 on the XL2. Hope this cam is a step up regarding that matter.

"I'm especially interested about the EVF/LCD finders' resolution and reliability. If there was one thing that disapointed me about the operation of the HVX200 was the innacurate viewfinder / monitor on it. Though I understand why they can't put a nice high res finder in there, someone will eventually need to get creative and supply a viewfinder that will allow for critical focusing in run and gun situations while not breaking the bank. "

I dont know if u recall, but i dismantled a DVX EVF and discovered a 1.5' 180k pixel LCD and the only thing in between was a magnifier... i agree.. with what we pay, paying afew hundred extra for a higher res montior isnt much to ask.. i mean teh technology IS THERE...

I don't remember mentioned it anywhere. Is this a 3xCCD camera?

I first found out about this camera a www.gizmodo.com. They are quoting a price of $8000 and shipping near the end of the year.

Very exciting news.

Dan Weber

$8K is a good price point... let's hope it doesn't creep up between now and release!

The problem for some of us is that there's a big product/pricing gap between entry-level HD cameras for a few thousand dollars and "pro cameras" costing ~$25-30K or so with a decent lens and accessories. The XDCAM EX sounds like it could be an excellent answer to this problem: slightly larger sensors for better low-light response, higher data rate than HDV for reduced compression artifacts and (hopefully) memory which is more affordable than P2 cards for a practical I.T. workflow. I hope Sony pulls this off, because it's been frustrating not having a product like this out there.

A good thing I see about this new cam is like any competing format, there will likely be a war between Panasonic and Sony for their tapeless solution, SxS for Sony and P2 for Panasonic. This will likely accelerate both size increase and price drops on those memory cards, since a lot of people will consider this the difference maker between the 2 platforms.

An other good thing from the limited info available on the XDCAM EX is that there does not seem to be any tape recording solution on the camera. This marks the begining of the end in "transition" type cameras and while I'm no designing expert, the fact you no longer have to account for tape transport mechanisms must provide simplified (and less expensive) designing options, which I assume could in turn be transformed in either price drops or better technology on other features.

Good point, the lack of a tape system probably pays for a portion of the 1/2" chips as opposed to 1/3"

I'm curious to see how the 24p is handled in this camera.......

It says CineAlta on it, so maybe, just maybe :D

Let's not forget that being able to record up to an hours worth of media on a single card is making this very interesting for us long-form corporate types.

This looks promising. I've been waiting and waiting for "the camera" for me. I'm still using a PD-150 which I actually like a lot. I didn't want to jump into HD until I saw a camera which had the particular features that I felt were important. This camera is looking promising and if it delivers as promised it will be my next camera. Real lens, half inch chips, the benefits of tapeless but without the huge costs.....it looks good so far.....

I found out that it’s a 3 CMOS camera and its expected to be released this November.

Scroll down and you will see a graphic of the camera and a 16 GB card
http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=158





I stole the link of this thread:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91617

I know that the artist's mock up drawing says 3 CMOS but has that been confirmed? All the information I've read says that it may or may not be CMOS instead of CCD's.

Here’s a post of mine from February 14
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.ph...523#post625523
“If you think about, if Panasonic looses the tape drive of the HVX200, they could easily make the chips bigger than 1/3” and/or add more P2 card slots.”
Sony ends up doing what I predicted Panasonic would do. Get rid of the tape deck and you are able to fit bigger imagers.

Since Sony didn’t want to use Blu-Ray discs, they should have a portable Blu-Ray storage drive just like the DVD drive that you can get for the JVC HD7. Hopefully by November they are able to make it as small as JVC’s DVD drive.

Panasonic could still be a big force if they release a successor to the HVX200 with bigger imagers and the 100mbps AVC codec.

The concept drawing of the EX has many inaccuracies. The camera is 3xCCD's. Possibly the same ones that are on the current XDCAM HD.

For Sony releasing this thing for fewer than 8,000 dollars is a very good deal when you consider what you’re getting. Now if only Sony can release this thing early.

Precisely, which is why i am so excited about this unit..
the biggest downside to P2 is the speed of transfer and card capacity itself...

Not bad, not bad at all. Of course we will have to wait and see what the quality is really like but I see no reason why it shouldn't at least be better then the best current HDV camera.

About the only thing this cameras does not seem to have is the 4:2:2 50 mbit mode. in a way that is a little sad. While 4:2:2 is not all that bad this still gives the HVX200 one tiny advantage which is recording 4:2:2 right in the camera. If SONY would allow the 4:2:2 mode on this camera there would almost be no point to consider the Panasonic unless somebody were a loyal Panasonic user. Of course with HD-SDI we have some pretty good 4:2:2 options but that just isn't the same as having 4:2:2 recording right in the camera. Lets hope SONY decides to put the 50 mbit mode into this camera.

lack of 4:2:2 may sound like a buzzkill, but the xdcam-hd cams on the market now have FANTASITC pictures. They key better than the HVX, and all around wipe the floor with it image-wise. This thing would be essentially the same (or higher-res?) imagers and codec as used in the current XDCAM-HD line. So far, there haven't been any complaints from 330 or 350 users regarding image quality or keying-ability. Obviously, nobody can tell until we see footage, but having seen side-by-side pictures from the varicam, hvx, and 350, I can tell you that at this point the HDV35 and DVCPRO-HD debate is largely a numbers game that reflects little of the reality of the situation. Sure, it would be nice to have clean 4:2:2 to the card at 100 mbits with 1" chips...(and well trained AC's stuffed in the box to pull focus) all for <$3000.... but seriously. I was VERY skeptical of the sony XDCAM approach when it came out. On paper the 350 should have been even, or slightly worse than the HVX. 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2. 35mbit vs. 100mbit. But, as has been discussed to no end, numbers dont tell the whole story all the time. Compression is like voodoo, or chaos theory, or both. There are so many factors that affect image quality

I've seen enough from their upmarket products to believe that if Sony actually brings this cam to the market, it will make fantastic images... We can nitpick all we want, but the pictures we're getting today for less than 10,000 are pretty amazing, and they just keep improving. Obviously, there's never going to be a time when we say "yeah, it's good enough now. Don't improve it anymore." But, like 1080i vs. 720p, or 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0, better isn't always measured by bullet points on a product sheet. Sometimes, it just depends on the implimentation.

Yes, i agree with Thomas about missing the 422 colour space that the HVX offers, however, i'd probably still pick this new camera over an HVX still, mainly due to its sensor size/res, the hvx's main downfall.

I also love the fact that Sony have kept up the world wide support with both 50/60i modes in the camera. Something the HVX does not have.

Im hoping that Sony will release a version of this camera, or possibly another Model supporting SxS that will record at 50mbps.

Come on Sony, we dont need 100, 50 will do, honest.

Personally, im a bit saddened as to the loss of the tape deck, as theres still a lot of dv/dvcam work here NZ to be shot on tape and i doubt i'd keep my Z1 if i bought this camera.

Still, this camera looks like a nice step forward and im definitely going to be keeping my eye on its development.. aka i really hope it gets redesigned to be not so ugly.

Talked to someone in the know, and they said the camera is definitely coming, it's still being developed. Said that a PC card camera is effective and easy to manufacture. So, this is great news indeed!

heath

In the presentation at the Sony booth they were making a big deal of the fact that the XDCAM EX uses Express Card technology instead of PC Card, which results in much higher throughput.

Although that extra speed is surplus to requirement for this particular application...

P2 = 640Mb/s
Express Card = 2.5Gb/s

XDCAM HD Recording Data Rate = 35Mb/s

Of course there is some advantage at the ingest end if you have a fairly good RAID.

There is also the fact that soon some laptops may no longer have PC slots in them since the format is being replaced by Express Card slots. We all know there isn't much space on a laptop and I myslef would prefer to have a laptop with two or three Express card slots and ditch the PC card slot. Pretty much any expansion card I would ever want to buy for my laptop would pretty much need the Express card bandwidth anyway.

Then again, it might be useful for some of us to have one camera like the XDCAM EX plus one or more Z1-caliber cameras to use for "B" roll or projects where the better camera isn't required. Or if the XDCAM EX becomes available as a rental model, keep the Z1s and just get the EX when you really need it.

Interesting. I always thought the point was for the EX to be the B-camera to the other XDCAM HD's!

Any hint of what the likely zoom range will be? With a 1/2" sensor I'd think that could be an issue, and a wide-angle attachment will probably be required for some uses.

The lens is reported to be a Fujinon 14X. The wide end focal length appears to be 5.8mm, which works out to be about 32.5mm equivalent. So it's just as wide as a Z1U, HVX200 or XH-A1.

If true that's excellent news! Dang, it's almost like someone at Sony actually found out what we all want and designed a camera around it...

:-)

Many true words are spoken in jest.

I had a light-bulb moment earlier today - shooting to ExpressCard would completely solve my shooting ratio problem. The Z1 is a great Event Videographer camera, but not really: often you're fishing for shots with the tape rolling hoping to get the gesture, the smile, the shower of sparks, the sound-bite, etc. With the rolling record function, problem solved.

"Just give me an HD camcorder that can do in low light what a PD150 can do". I guess the 1/2" sensor does that. "I'd love an F-350 for its image quality, but quite frankly could do without the weight and the bulk". I guess the EX does that too. Much as I love (and have grown to rely on) the shot transition feature - not just pulling focus, but pulling focus, iris, zoom AND shutter speed, great for insane exposure differences - the Z1 lens disappoints. The EX appears to have a way of disengaging servos. We can pop focus and fidget the zoom to please our directors or at least emulate some of the passe tricks of broadcast cameras (oops, sorry, moving on).

I'm getting the feeling that Sony's dropping these toys into our basket and watching/listening. Excellent move. The EX is spot on, just need to sort the back panel, the battery orientation (and hopefully compatible with the NPR-970 series), a shoulder mount solution, a LANC that controls the Shot Transition function, an underscan viewfinder that works in all formats, a Preset TC "+1" function (or maybe I'm out of touch), and hopefully an instant start (for all those who've filmed with HDV on tape).

But the nurse says I must rest now. Please excuse the crayon...

I have read through this thread and Sony's press release, but I don't see the difference between these two camcorders. Is one supposed to have CCDs with a Fujinon lens while the other has a Canon lens?

Artist Impression vs Concept Mockup...

All subject to change at the manufacturers whim.

There's so many differences between the artists rendition & the mockup, it's ridiculous :)

Bill

It seemed pretty far along this morning when I played with it: http://studiomusic.free.fr/jour%203/MoiEtEX.jpg
Fit and finish were very good. The focus and zoom were a little clicky though.

Now if it would just turn on... and we could purchase it in the shops... I'd be REALLY happy.

(Please Sony, don't water down the features before it gets to sale).