SxS cards have less capactiy after each shoot
 

I have been erasing my SxS cards via the "delete all clips" command on the EX1.

I have noticed that my cards are filling up before they reach capacity. Is there a better way to erase footage?

Are there hidden files that remain on the card and can they be erased without reformatting?

Thanks,

Diana

Try the Format card option.

Noah

Why don't you like to re-format them? I do after every time I download.

Didn't realize it was a problem until the most recent shoot.

Don't you have to rename your media if you reformat?

Diana

I have not noticed any loss of capacity with any of my seven cards, and I've been shooting with one of them since September '07. I don't remember when I last re-formatted it, but it has been many months.

The reason I prefer to "delete all clips" is because I don't want to wipe out the EX1 and EX3 Camera Data files I have stored on each of my cards, and I don't want to lose the custom name that I have given each of my cards. I almost never reformat.

I heard that you shouldn't delete clips from your computer.

Heath

loss of capacity
 

Doug

Is there some other reason why an 8 GB SxS would only record 6 GBs before it flips to the next card?

Given the price of the cards, I don't have very many and need every mb I can spare. Also, it makes planning for a shot worrisome. Will the card loose more capacity the next time?

I've never had this issue. After I offload the footage to two separate hard drives I will format the card in-camera. I've had my EX1/SxS cards since last July.

Hi Diana,

I have to admit that I never allow the camera to automatically switch from one card to the other. I can completely understand why that is a nice feature to have, but it is simply something I never need. My longest clips are rarely over one minute, so I just change cards when the display says I have "0" minutes remaining. I never have two cards loaded because I don't want the camera switching on me automatically. Okay, I'm a control freak.

I really hate the way the camera starts beeping an warning me the media is almost full with 4 minutes of space remaining. Sometimes I have to put up with that annoying warning for an hour or more because I'm still filling up the card. 4 minutes of space might take me dozens of clips to use up.

I'm telling you all that just to preface what I am about to say because I'm just speaking on what I "think" the camra is doing when it switches to the second card -- and not what I know it is doing from experience.

I suspect that the camera is switching over to the second card too early. In other words, it is making the switch before the first card is completely full. I'd have to do some testing to create the situation and I don't have the time to do that.

Why don't you try recording some additional footage to one of the cards that only got 6GB recorded to it and see if it will accept more clips? That should tell you if the card was really full or not. See if you can get another 2GB of clips recorded on the card. But be sure to eject the second card first or the camera will just swtich over again.

If you can get the camera to record more footage on the card, then we have a clue as to the real problem.

I always "delete all clips" with the camera's menu.
As I said before, this prevents erasing my two Camera Data files and renaming my card.

If someone doesn't care about preserving those three items, then, by all means, just re-format the whole card and be done with it. But that is not an option for me.

Thanks for your reply Doug.

I tried adding more footage to the card during the shoot but I didn't remove the second card. The camera just kept on flipping to the next card. I'll try tomorrow to do this with just one card in the slot. I'll let you know what happens.

I shoot in K-12 classrooms and it is non-stop action so I need to be able to have both cards available. My shoots usually last 1 1/2 hours.

The other annoying thing about the SxS cards is that when a clip is split between two cards, it needs special handling in the XDCAM Transfer software otherwise it will not be copied to the hard drive. The media has an "SMI" extension. I forgot to do this extra step for one of my shoots and I lost an important clip. No way to recreate the situation. On the good side, if you remember to upload it, no frames are missing!! You get three files two from card A, one from card B. It seems like you have to put all three in the timeline for the file to work.

That's one of the reasons I prefer to keep only one card in the camera, but for some situations, as I said before, having two cards is the logical choice.

There should be a menu option to prevent the camera from flipping over. Then, when the counter reached "0" you could press the button yourself.

Let us know how the test turns out.

Not sure of your workflow, but if you use Clip Browser to copy from your cards to the same folder, any clips which span more than one card will be combined automatically. Clip Browser will take the folders from the two (or more) cards and combine them in exactly the same way as if you had recorded the whole clip to one card. You can then import that clip with XDCAM Transfer without having to worry about it having been recorded across multiple cards.

If you are using Clip Browser but copying each card to a separate hard disc folder, or using finder to copy the BPAV folder, you will need to used Clip Browser to copy the second part of the spanned clip into the same folder as the first part.

N

I used to avoid having clips spanning cards, because I used to drag and drop each BPAV folder into its own folder on my hard drive and it was a pain to have to remember that there was a spanned clip which needed combining. However, after reading here of the perils of this workflow, I switched to using Clip Browser and having one folder for the whole project. Combining split files is so seamless that I am completely comfortable with the camera changing cards when it is ready.

I agree that the Media Full warning is a pain, although I turn the beep volume to 0 so just have the flashing rear tally and vf caption. And with a second card you just get the 'Will change slots soon' message, and no beep or flashing light.

N

That's good to know. Like I said, I prefer to switch cards manually and it has been more than 18 months since I last saw that message. Thanks for the refresher.

On most pro cameras you can completely customize how/when/if the warning messages appear, so it is a step backwards to have to deal with these messages at all.

I always format my SxS cards before a shoot. As stated, use Clip Browser to copy the cards to the PC and it will take care of any spanned clips automatically.

I have labeled (externally) my SxS cards, so I don't care about any software label/ID of the card. And I keep my picture profiles safely stored on my computer. From there they can be easily copied to an SxS card for reloading into the camera, should the need arise.

Please tell me how you can store and then copy your picture profiles as I need to lean that..as when I rent out my EX3...it always comes back with different settings and I have to manually re-set everything....thanks

It's in the menu under CAMERA DATA, Recall or Store. It's not just picture profiles that are stored, it's the menu settings as well.

Like Doug I like to revert to all the camera baseline settings, but I also prefer to format the cards, just a comfort level.

Before you format a card, just recall your settings to the camera, format the card, then save the camera settings to the card.

I must be missing something here!

I always reformat my cards when I put them back into the (two EX 1's) we have and have never lost the camera data information or the PPs.

As we do live events and weddings, we constantly let the cameras change cards themselves, (always had warning volume on Zero from day 1), and as has already been stated, let Clip Browser automatically rejoin the clips when capturing to the computer.

The ONLY time this has never been seamless was when I inadvertently put the B card in the computer 1st and when I proceeded to the next card (the A one) it couldn't join pt 1 to pt 2, so had to delete the downloaded files and start again, in the right order.

(Blame old age for this one, but it is a trap of beware of).

Back to original post, have always had the full minutes available with the cards with this method.

Suggest to Diana that she gets the card checked. Haven't they got a lifetime guarantee?

Cheers,

Vaughan

This is why I always copy each card to its own, separate folder - and use Clip Browser to merge those folders at a later time; this way all my split (due to the FAT32 limit) or spanned (between 2 or more cards) clips get seamlessly joined. No matter which order I copy the cards to my HDD...

Dragging this thread back to the original topic :-)

I've just had a look at a card which has had a 'Delete all clips' in the camera. According to Finder, there is the BPAV folder and in that, 2 files (CUEUP.XML and MEDIAPRO.XML) and 2 empty subfolders (CLPR and TAKR). Total space used is 64KB.

Diana - after you have done a 'delete all clips', do you see any other files or folders? If you have saved the camera settings, there will be a SONY folder too. Also, have you been marking any clips as 'OK' on the card? If you do, 'delete all clips' will not delete them and they will remain, taking up space.

N

Tom,

Good point, but that works if you only own one camera. I shoot with multiple EX1s and EX3s.

For example, if I reformat a card in the EX1, then save the camera data file back to the card, I have still lost my EX3 data file and the custom name that I have given the card.

"Delete all clips" takes only a couple of seconds longer to execute than "Reformat" so there's really no advantage for me to ever reformat my cards.

That's because reformatting a card will not cause you to lose the camera data file that is loaded into the internal memory bank of the camera. But it will wipe out those files that are saved on the card. So if you ever want to reload the file, move your settings to another camera, etc. they won't be on the card as a backup anymore.

Yes, you can save a backup file on your computer (see my training DVD and field guide), but I rarely have my computer with me on a shoot.

Admittedly, this is a pretty minor issue (or non-issue) for someone who only uses one camera and doesn't care about giving cards a custom name. All I'm saying is that, since reformatting and delelting all clips both take about the same amount of time and the same number of steps, why not just delete all clips and preserve the data stored on the card? It works for me.

Card test
 

Hi Doug,

I tried what you suggested--put in the card that switched too early to see if I could record on it if there was no other card in the camera. I couldn't.

The time was 0 and I got a message that the card was full.

This is an 8GB card. I put it into the card reader and checked "get info" and it said:

7.5 GB capacity

6.9 GB used

600 mb available

I didn't think to check after reformatting. A test for another day.

On the workflow --- I've been using the XDCAM transfer software to move my media to the hard drives. It automatically creates separate folders for each card. This is what creates the problem with the split clips.

I'll have to try the Clip Browser again. When I first got the camera, I tried the clip browser and didn't like some aspect of its functionality (can't remember why -- something to do with missing drivers I think) so when I tried the transfer software, and it worked without a glitch, I just stuck with it. Not sure what the difference is between the two.

I don't disagree. Are we sure there's no concern with fragmentation when deleting versus formatting? I quite honestly wasn't even aware that a card *could* be custom named.

I've always done the "Delete Clips" thing instead of Format mostly because I have named all the cards (4 8gig SxS cards). I named them "Card_A", "Card_B", etc. which comes in very handy when I've done shoots where I was constantly shuffling cards between the camera and my laptop. I had one assignment that ran continuously for almost 2 hours so I was transferring files to my laptop while the camera continued to run. I'm not sure if fragmentation will become an issue over time especially given the use of FAT32 file structure. And, like Doug, I don't want to have to copy my camera profiles back to the card all the time, too.

Shouldn't be. Fragmentation happens when just some of the files on the medium are deleted, leaving empty space split up by the remaining files. After 'delete all clips', the card only has 64KB on it, so is effectively empty.

It isn't obvious in this thread, but is the matter related to shooting with only one card in the camera? The message I get (always have 2 cards mounted) is "will change...", which I think useful. If I had only one card mounted, approaching the end before I get there is something I need to know.
Reformatting is preferable to deleting because the latter accumulates clutter, but reformatting at the end of a shoot is quite sufficient. Camera files should be backed up elsewhere anyway.

The difference between Clip Browser and XDCAM Transfer is actually pretty simple, and if you are a FCP owner, you need to use both of them.

You use Clip Browser to import/archive/backup copies of the original native MP4 clips and BPAV folders on a hard drive or other removalble storage medium. You can also use Clip Browser to convert to other formats, if necessary.

You use XDCAM Transfer (for FCP users only) to convert the MP4 files to MOV files that Final Cut Pro will recognize and that can actually be used for editing. XDCAM Transfer offers a lot of options for how clips are imported, where they are imported to, which clips are imported, which parts of clips are imported, etc.

I recommend that you use both programs in a typical FCP workflow.

First, make archive copies of all your footage with Clip Browser, and then use XDCAM Transfer to convert just the clips, or sub-clips, that you want to actually use for editing.

I guess there is a plug-in now that will allow FCP to edit native MP4 files, but I haven't tried it myself and I am very skeptical that I will like it when I do.

The Clip Browser and XDCAM Transfer workflow works great as far as I'm concerned.

Calibrated Software. I use it. Works great. It doesn't join clips but it works fine otherwise.
It makes import blazing fast as there's no need to wrap to MOV. Editing is just as fast as working with MOV. Open a project is a little slower but not much. It works fine with FCP EX Easy Setups. No need to change sequence settings.

What's not to like?

Does it allow you to create subclips?

Can I see thumbnails?

Can I playback clips?

Does is show all the same metadata as XDCAM Transfer?

Does it automatically gather all the clips from the various sub-folders within the BPAV folder on the card and put them all in one place (of my choosing) on the destination hard drive?

Does it allow re-naming of clips during the transfer?

Will the imported MP4 files show up and play within Adobe Bridge? Bridge compatibility is mandatory for my workflow.

Will the imported MP4 files run within QuickTime player?

I have to have two backups of everything I shoot, and it doesn't matter to me if one copy is an MP4 and one copy is an MOV. So, skipping XDCAM Transfer and having two MP4 backups would save me no space at all. Maybe a little importing time, but that doesn't matter to me.

How are you using Bridge, Doug? Is that for file organization?

Can you assign the drive where the mov's are stored as they're created?

Yes in FCP. You use File Import. It's a plugin, not a program.

Yes

Yes

Yes

No. It's a plugin. You use File Import. There's no program such as XDCAM Transfer. Import as a file as if it was any other MOV file ready to use.

It's a plugin. Files are simply imported as if they were already MOV.

Good question but so far it works in every Quicktime based app I've tested with.

Yes. Plugin works in all Quicktime apps I've tested. I can import the MP4 in Compressor or Telestream Episode and use their TC Burn in feature to make Windows dubs of the clips without having to first wrap to MOV for example.

I do a lot of short turnaround work. Imagine shooting 2 hour press conference and having to get it out that day. Not having to rewrap to MOV is a major time savings. I have two backups also. One to Optical Disk and another to Hard drive of the BPAV. No need to make a wrap to MOV which would be a third copy for me.

Craig,

Thanks for the info. It won't fit my workflow, but it looks like a good product for the right person.

I use Adobe Bridge to organize all my stock footage, graphics, music clips, sfx clips, and other elements that I use on a regular basis while I'm editing. I have a dedicated 1TB drive on my system for those elements, plus other drives that are connected as needed.

Whenever I'm editing, Bridge is open and running. I can browse through the drives and preview clips, etc. from right inside Bridge (but it doesn't recognize MP4 files).

When I find something I want to use in my project, I can just drag and drop the file(s) straight from Bridge and onto my timeline or into a bin.

Without using Bridge, there is no good way to see what a file is before you import it into the FCP project.

To answer your other question, yes, you can control exactly where MOVs are stored when you import them with XDCAM Transfer.

Why not? I delete the BPAV folder all the time ...

Deleting Clips with ClipBrowser is fine.

The problem with deleting clips from the computer itself is that apparently computers may place invisible files on the card which may result in an error message when using the card in the camera.

See the conversation we've been holding here.

Heath

This is what I was talking about earlier--erasing them manually from your Mac or PC vs. camera or Clip Browser.

heath