Another SD downconversion question
 

Hi guys,
I am one of the new EX1 owners on this forum, loving the camera and loving the forum. Thanks everybody for the really helpful advice and discussions.
My question is related to some of the existing SD down conversion threads, which I have read (with some confusion), but my question is also slightly different.
My parameters are as follows:
I currently have no edit suite/computer/software. This will be my next investment. I want to make a short advocacy video about what we will euphemistically call an "issue" in Zimbabwe, seeing this is a real name forum. I have an EX1 with decent mics, and my organisation also has two Sony HDR-HC9's which can film in both HDV and SD.
The short advocacy video will be about 12 mins long and will be distributed on DVD and I will also try to get buy-in from a magazine show on regional television. Now, as far as I currently see it, trying to output to both DVD and broadcast requires very different final formats, namely as high a quality as possible for the broadcast option and SD for the DVD.
1) So should I film the whole thing with my EX1 on highest quality settings and then down convert to create two separate versions?
2) If so, which system and software have forum users found most successful for down conversion bearing in mind I have not yet committed any resources to any computer hardware or software and am thus quite free in this regard? Or the converse of this question, any systems that provide very bad results and should be avoided?
3) Will I get a better quality SD version using the Sony camcorders?

Is using these small camcorders a good idea IF there is very little chance of getting my piece broadcast?
A colleague working in this same field here in Zimbabwe recently told me that international broadcasters are taking anything that comes out of here because of the ban on international media.
So: Ex1 or Sony HDR HC9?
and: SD or HD or both?
Thanks in advance,
Simon
PS We are working in partnership with witness.org, who is also responding to this question, but I wondered if anyone from the forum had any input .

Hi Simon,

I shoot at the highest setting to suit the program. Pretty much 1080 50i or 1080 25p as I am in a PAL country and all my work, although may be sent overseas to NTSC countries, is first and foremost made for the main clients' requirement and that is here in Australia.

I work with Medias 100 and edit in HD using ProRez422HQ codec. I export the finished program to a QT file and I use Apple Compressor to create the MPEG-2 and Dolby Digital files. MPEG-2 files are created using 2 pass VBR at best setting. Can take a while for Compressor to down convert but it is worth the wait.

I then burn the DVD from there with consistently great results.

I shoot usually 720/50p, which i feel gives better downconversion to SD/DVD.
I edit using Sony Vegas pro 8, very easy workflow.

Paul.

David, please tell me which parametres you put in Compressor to get fine MPEG2-SD results. I am getting mad trying to put 1080i to 576i in a decent quality.

Thanks
Markus

This is also very easy with Vegas.

Paul.

And very easy with Avid Liquid.....but I changed to FCP ;-(

All NLE's can make an SD Mpeg file or DVD from an HD timeline BUT not all (few) do a decent job regards quality etc (jaggies, staircasing,blurred)

I found the best way to get a DVD from HD (eg EX1) is to render final a file in HD from your timeline (any NLE & codec u fancy so long as it retains the HD quality)
I use MPEG 1920x1080 with smart rendering in Edius 5 ( whizzes through the render process for un changed long gop EX1 files)

then throw that file into MEDIACODER - a free transcoder which used FFMPEG at its core

just make sure the resize scale algorithm is bicubic or Natural bicubic spline.

The resulting Mpeg file is 100% DVD complaint so can be burnt without any further transcoding.

You can also specify the Audo filter and bit rate etc along with Video bit rate CBR/VBR etc etc

test it and then tell me you're not happy with the results!

Media coder is 100% FREE and contains no spy ware etc

go check it out here >> MediaCoder - more than a universal audio/video transcoder

It's far easier in Vegas, and the result are stunning.

Yep. But no one believes it.

I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about until I saw how the Mac guys have to do it. I was shocked.

Mediacoder is fine but unfortunately at the moment not easy to switch to Apple....

It's simple.

In Final Cut just go straight from your HD timeline to compressor best quality 90 mins. Job done. No fuss! I did a band performance vid, looks great on DVD!

I did some comparisons from Vegas Pro 8 and DVD architect vs MediaCoder and all I can say is - Vegas results are terrible in comparison

The real test comes when you have high contrasting diagonals - chrome railings etc are always hard to down convert

With Vegas it was like watching the 39 steps! MediaCoder kept all the diagonals true - not a single step in sight!

Vegas simply doesn't do the camera justice - personally I want the best I can get on my DVD's

Matt, can you describe what footage you used (progressive or interlaced to start) and your workflow through Vegas/DVDA?

Not knowing what you're doing or not doing, Matt, I have to totally disagree. It's obvious that you're doing something wrong.

Such is not the case with the results I'm getting--beautifully stunning image quality in SD. I've been in this business for over 35 years. I feel more than confident that I know quality when I see it.

I'll throw my hat in for Edius 5 :) I don't normally need SD, but I was testing my EX3 a Dad's and he wanted a copy. Edius 5 lets you convert and burn to DVD straight from the timeline, and the result was a letterboxed widescreen that really looked very nice on Dad's old 68cm tube. No aliasing, great color, converted from 1080/50i.

I came up with a solution for HD to SD DVD window burns today. It seems to be working okay.

We've got a AJA Io HD so I used it and a cheap DVD recorder (big, like a VHS deck).

1) Import all clips (as normal)
2) Import into FCP
3) Drop onto timeline
4) Add timecode window burn
5) Change timeline settings so that it will play at reduced quality without rendering (dynamic, Unlimited RT, etc...)
6) Setup AJA Io HD to downconvert FCP output to 525i 29.97 (standard def)
7) Switch DVD recorder to Input 1
8) Put in a blank DVD-R
9) Press RECORD on DVD recorder / Press spacebar in FCP

The only negative, is that it's real time. So if you've got 3 hours of window burn to transfer, it's going to take 3 hours. But this particular DVD Recorder has 4 settings (1 hour, 2 hours, 4 hours, 8 hours) I haven't checked the quality of the different record settings, but who cares, it's just a window burn. Quality doesn't matter. I needed speed and convenience.

Worked for me.

hi all,
thanks for taking the time to reply - I really appreciate it.

lol - most people here are saying how their system really works well, which is great news!

So following your advice I think I am going to film the whole thing in 1080/50i (also PAL country/region) and then downconvert, that way if I go to broadcast I have a much better quality version than if I do it all on the Sony HDR -HC9's.

And what about my other question...? Is it necessarily a problem to intercut footage from the EX1 with footage form the HC9's as they will be far less conspicuous for risky run and gun situations? (i.e. I think I might have to use the Sony HDV camcorders for some shots.) I suppose it will just have a different 'look'.

Thoughts on this?

Another thing I have learnt from reading other bits and pieces on picture profiles is that quite a few people (I think Bill Ravens is one?) recommend turning DETAIL OFF as this can create/aggravate compression artefacts when downconverting to SD.

Turning detail off also greys out some other items in the detail menu, some of these things could be useful.
So what you could do is switch detail on and set it to -25 which is the same as off, but now you'll still have the other items available to you.

Paul.

I've experimented with several methods down converting to SD. It's a bit convoluted, but the best result I've achieved are as follows:

Export my finished project in FCP using Sony XDCAM Export ( Export menu ) to send MP4 file back to a BPAV folder.

Open file in Clip Browser and export to AVI DV 4:3 (squeeze )

Open with Quicktime Pro / Window menu / Show Movie Properties / deselect Preserve Aspect Ratio / rescale to 1024 x 540 / press enter key then re-save movie to preserve 16:9 aspect.

This method produces really good looking DV files.

Sony Clip Browser SD conversion is the key.

I've compared the results of this method to others mentioned on this thread & in my tests the results look noticeably better. Generally clearer & fewer artifacts & twitter particularly in complex movement like wind on water surface.

Chris,

Your method is the one that Sony recommended to use. I too am getting better results. I use Premmiere Pro

Just a small correction on my previous post - rescale in Quicktime Pro should be 1024 x 576

Vincent,

I didn't realize that's the Sony recommended method. Is it mentioned in the Clip Browser manual?
Doug Jenson mentioned it was possible to export back to BPAV in one of his EX1/3 promo movies so I thought I'd give it a try.

Vincent,

I too use Premiere Pro. How do you "Sony XDCAM Export to send MP4 file back to a BPAV folder"? I believe this is only possible with FCP. Can you please enlighten me? Thanks

this is bad - just tried it - the 4:3 anamorphic loses so much detail/resolution. Its like watching something filmed from my mobile phone (ok slight OTT there) but honestly there are much better solutions to gettin HD to SD (dvd)

check out mediacoder - uses FFMPEG as its engine and has a nice-ish GUI

Matt

If the the results look like something from your mobile phone, something is not right. The trick is to export 4:3 squeeze ( 720x576 ) then rescale & save to 1024 x 576 in QT Pro.
I haven't tried mediacoder but the resolution in my tests are a marked improvement over Compressor.

Can you give me the step by step to downconvert to SD NTSC starting with the MXF file
going into Vegas etc..

Thanks

I second George's request.

Thanks.

Pete

I've said this many times before on other threads....

It makes a BIG difference whether your starting with Progressive footage/timeline or Interlaced footage/timeline.

Going from Progressive to Interlaced or Interlaced to Progressive is very tough to do and get good results. So when you're sharing your HD to SD work flow it's important to include that detail.

My $0.02....

If you're shooting/editing in progressive, stay progressive all the way through including burning a progressive DVD.

If you're shooting/editing interlaced, stay interlaced all the way through including burning an interlaced DVD.

DELIVERY FORMATS
DVD - progressive looks slightly better, but use interlaced if that's what you shot/edited in
Computer/Web - progressive should be your only choice
Broadcast - interlaced will be the best choice (in almost all cases)

For FCS users only...
 

Just be sure to 'click the gear icon' in the third tab of Compressor's inspector window, and switch Frame Controls on. Often that's all you need to do.

The first trickle of results from my downconvert/interlace research are here:

EX1: Downconverting

At some point, I'll do a screencast of all of this, plus an NTSC DVD to download as well, but hopefully this will help for now.

That website you've created looks to be the start of a great resource!

But one small suggestion....

I would use color in your example files. The color red is especially troublesome when converting from HD progressive to SD interlaced (DV). You're just using black and white.

Black and white for clarity for now, but an excellent suggestion and will follow your advice. Thanks!

Hi all,

I read this thread with great interest!

Maybe I'm a complete idiot but I seem to be getting great results by simply exporting through Compressor directly from the HD timeline. I tried the Ken Stone method but found that wasn't as good.

I shoot only progressive and mostly 720 25/50p and the down converts seem pretty damn good to me! No movement issues and hardly any jaggies.

Am I mad!???!?

Here's my workflow for 1080i50 to PAL DV, it's the same as Matt Davis outlines above.

After using log and transfer to import the files into FCP, I drop the quicktimes onto a droplet from Compressor.

It's the compressor preset for DV PAL Anamorphic, with the 'frame controls' cog enabled and output fields set to 'bottom first'. The droplet creates quicktimes in the same location as the original but with DV added to the title.

Results are great on my broadcast monitor. I laid the HD and SD clips on a DV timeline and cut between the two and there's no perceivable difference.

Matt

Your article and demo disc was very interesting - did you develop it further?

Cheers

N

I am going to develop it further, along with the ingest stuff, workflow bits and a whole lotta Compressor stuff regarding shooting for 4:3 SD.

It's just a case of finding the time. Am flat out right now, and in these recessionary times, paid work comes first.

But be in no doubt, *will* be developing this! Can't leave it as-is.

The Ken Stone article is horribly out of date, and I have been petitioning to have it removed or updated for some time - to no avail, oddly.

As for your results? No madness. None at all. But...

Some of us have used the direct Export to Compressor route from FCP and have been bitten - hard, I may add, and on the bottom - by little bugs in FCP which lead to the brief flashes of red 'media not found' flash frames and sync issues. Others (me included) have found sync errors in this method - albeit some time ago in the 4.x or 5.x days.

These bite marks are long lasting and permanent, whilst the 'export to self contained movie' method has been full of warm and loving goodness, reliable, and it gives me something perfect to archive AND gives me my computer to use whilst the movie encodes.

There is one big hairy chested error that drives me nuts: if you batch export self-contained movies from FCP, it generates files that won't import into Episode or other encoding apps. I have to open each up in Movie Player and create pointer movies. This is a point I've sent into the Apple 'memory hole' bug reporting system for some time now, and nobody responds (quelle suprise). Maybe I shouldn't write in green crayon.

But I digress.

AFAIK, 720 contains less detail than 1080, there's less of it to bunch up and cause jaggies at downconvert time. But the bandwidth is the same, so those pixels have more room to bounce around in (less motion artifacts for those who don't like Welsh lyricism). 720p rocks for SD IMHO. And there's some... who may point out amongst friends... that in most domestic and exhibition circumstances (prepares to duck and run) that 720p delivers all that a 1080 will deliver unless you're 'smelling the screen'.

I'm going to make an ISO of some 1080 and 720 footage for viewing on a BD player and let an ordinary human view it. At a comfortable distance. But the nurse says I must rest now.

720/50p is great for down converting to SD DVD.
It just works better than anything else I have tried.

1080 i & p fails for SD at this time for me.

Simon

Hi Matt,


This is probably the millionth time you have been asked this, but could you briefly run over your down conversion method?

I assume you edit in an HD timeline, export as a self contained movie then down convert in Compressor?

Just fill in the bits where I am wrong!

Interesting to see how a man of your experience is tackling the down conversion question.

Many thanks.

I too have been experimenting with 720/50p for SD DVDs and am now getting the results I was hoping for from the beginning.

All I did was just output the Adobe Premiere 720/50p timeline to Encore CS3 and the results are spot on. No twitter, sharp images etc.

Previously I had been using the EX3 camera with 1440x1080 50i and tried most of the recommendations made on this forum. They all seem to involve such time consuming and complicated workarounds, and most of the results were disappointing.

Keep it simple