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Essentially I have been using something like PP2 with Cine3, but detail level reduced to -20 & frequency at 20. I also adjusted blacks, but I can't remember what it was, I'll have to look.
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Paul - I was not refering to anything specifically just making a comment.
Steve it is nice to know that by cranking up the frequency you can retain the sharpness and still lose the edge. Gotta try that. The TV PP was used to master to Beta SP. Seems that going to analog causes a visual loss. Jim |
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Because that is what the station requires. When going to Beta you lose some of your contrast and saturation.
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You are talking about PP5?
It doesn't make sense to me to raise the contrast above normal for a beta playout... |
Jim no worry I was just checking that it was the +5 you were discussing. I have never gone to Beta so don't know about PP5 and saturation for that use.
Thanks Steve I will play with some of those numbers today. Yesterday I went through all one more time and still like PP2 for my work but it needs improvement. Also played with PP2 in 720 30/60 and timelaps 1/1-16. YeeHa 2 new U60 batteries arrived today after ordering from AbelCineTech yesterday. |
To help understand the PP settings try this. Hook the camera up to a big monitor and another camera with the settings you like on a monitor next to the EX1. I did this with the Canon A1 and the Sony Ex1. Keeping the Canon on the settings I like. Then going through all the PP setting on the EX and looking to see what each adjustment does to try and get close. You do not have to record and the changes are instant. Make sure your monitors are accurate and only use this as a guide but it is a nice exercise. I did this with both on tripods and through a open window since 95% of my shooting is outside. Then pick 5 setting and go out and shoot and look at the results in your NLE.
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Four more new PP's today and I am getting close to the one I like for my upcoming jobs. I am sure it will always be tweaked but getting close.
The one I like the best so far is PP1. But I think tomorrow I will try the Low Key Sat at +10 and +20 to help dial it in. I do like Detail off and Skin Tone off. As for Knee you can't control Knee unless you are using the Standard Gamma. |
XDCAM Scene Files
I noticed that Sony has some downloadable scene files for the XDCAM's on their website.
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...eneFiles.shtml Is there any way to convert these scene files for use on the EX1? |
Keep up the good work Paul. I tried out some of your settings today with mixed results. I'm undecided if I like the image with detail off or not. Part of me feels happy that there's less processing happening, but I also miss the images looking quite as stunning.
Your PP1 seemed over saturated to me, I know the look your trying to achieve as I used the vividRGB settings in my A1 a few times too, although I always found that to be a little too reddish for my liking. Good luck with it though, I'm definitely going to keep trying out your findings. Paul. |
Can't read downloaded profiles
Hi,i've downloaded some of the profiles from this thread but can't open them,what programs are you all using ?
Thanks,Paul. |
What is this, the Paul club!
I think the file is an excel spreadsheet. |
Paul J. have you adjusted any of the setting to remove some of the red. I agree the A1 setting is a little on the red side but it never was a problem with so much blue in most of my shots. I still have my A1 and only use Vivid when outside. But trying to move to the EX only.
Interesting playing with the Low Key Sat. I still have not tried to adjust that setting due to rain all day yesterday. Not sure what you mean when you "miss the images looking quite as stunning."? After looking at the examples with detail on and off and trying while hooked up to a monitor I prefer the sharper image. Are you saying you prefer the softer image? Post some of what you like I am sure it will help. Thanks Paul K yes it is a excel file. |
Here is my question: Can you see the effects of your settings in the LCD to the extent that you can make you gamma settings based on it?
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Michael I would not base any of my settings on the LCD. I either make the settings in a test and then look on my NLE or hook up to a corrected monitor and then test the settings.
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Michael I do not use a external monitor but if you search there are a few option that are HD but not cheap.
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Steve you talked about a PP with -20 level and +20 frequency but you were going to check on your blacks. Have you had a chance to check?
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PP samples from interview
1 Attachment(s)
Here's some frames from a quick interview I shot this morning. I shot it with PP off to be able to adjust in post, but am also looking for some minor PP tweaks that will give me the best image to start with. I was particularly interested in using Cine 4, both with and without detail adjustment. Didn't end up liking that. I don't completely understand all these settings, and so would welcome suggestions for the next interview (Thursday).
Spreadsheet attached, but here's what I did: PP1 Sony: suggested here: http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowC...=1193315622557 (by the way, just noticed some new tips posted there) PP2 CINE4: Cine 4 Gamma, 0 level PP3 CINE4-DT: same as 2, with detail -20 and black gamma +25 PP4 HSAT: same HSAT posted earlier in the thread PP5 WCV: Paul Cronin's PP1 PP6 Film Curve: same Film Curve posted earlier Off frame included too. I posted the images here: http://robcollins.net/pp-rc.zip. I kept getting upload failures trying to add the images to this post. |
Thanks Rob for posting those. I also have problems at times posting pictures.
I have still been trying and tried more the last three days but still not happy. Out of your grabs I like PP4 the best. But then again I like saturated look while still sharp. If I get some better results I will post. |
I like that one too. For now I'm happy to shoot with PP off and use Magic Bullet Looks. I will be happy though when someone gets just the right settings for something like my old DVX100 gave me on factory F5!
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Here is a post I just up on the Vegas Forum which is more relevant here. I'm just overwhelmed by the vast possible adjustement in the Picture Profiles.
My EX1 comes Monday so I've been studying the manual and what tutorials I can find (which are few) and there seems enough possible adjustment to hang yourself! A 200 point adjustment, from +99 to -99 in each of these categories: Matrix Level Matrix Phase RGB combos Color5 Correction (specific area) *Target Width *Level *Phase WB offsets Detail level Detail Frequency (I don't even know what this means) Detail Crisping H/V Ratio White Limiter Black Limiter Knee APT Level Skin Tone Level Skin Tone Saturation Skin Tone Phase Knee Point Knee Slope Knee SAT Level Gamma level Black level Black Gamma level Low Key SAT In my math that's 25 x 200 shriek which is about 5 followed by 28 zeros of combinations! No wonder my Vortex Media training DVD says forget all this and stick to CINE4 + High SAT and Black -2!. How are you EX1 owners dealing with experimenting with all these PP combos? Mike |
I'm looking for mostly to get a lot of latitude (or the appearance of it).
I think Cine4 is nice when you have overexposed areas in the image like car head lights, lamps etc. But if you're shooting at grey sky, smoke or subjects that are white to almost white you loose a lot of the latitude. So for these kinda shots I think picture profile off is good. I did one shoot yesterday in a snow storm with big white snowflakes falling and a grey sky in the background. I forgot to change the PP from Cine4 to off. It did kinda mess up the shot a bit. Would have been more dramatic with PP off I think. But I have to do more tests to see if this is really the case and in which situations it works and doesn't work. Sami |
True Color Calibrating EX1 with DSC Labs Camette
First blush inspection of the EX1 color balance showed weak green/cyan and a fairly narrow dynamic range. The histogram filled only about 3/4 of the x axis and tended to be on the underexposure side of things. Granted, I don't have a 3 color histogram, so, this is really an approximation. My goal was to increase the dynamic range, improve the exposure without blowing the hi-lites and muddying the shadows. I, also, wanted to bring up the weak green/cyan.
Anyone familiar with Paolo Ciccone's True Color calibration for the JVC HD100 knows the procedure... http://www.paolociccone.com/hd100-calibration.html I repeated his process with the EX1, HDRack, and a DSC Labs Camette chart v8.1. Here's my procedure and results: 1-Light DCS chart with 600w quartz halogen lamp 2-white balance the EX1- result of the WB=2700k 3-zoom EX1 onto 5-step gray chart on camette and look at the WFM. 4-adjust aperture so white step shows 100IRE 5-adjust black and black gamma so black step shows 0IRE. 6-adjust knee and gamma so middle gray sits at 50%IRE and all grey steps are evenly spaced 7-Now the hard part-zoom out to show the color bars on Camette. Turn on Picture profile mode and set MATRIX to ON. 8-adjust global and local phase angles to put all the color bursts within the vectorscope targets Here's my results: Matrix---------------------on Select---------------------hisat Level...............................0 Phase..............................+6 R-G................................+75 R-B................................0 G-R................................-18 G-B................................-23 B-R................................-33 B-G................................+11 Color Correction..............off White.............................off Detail.............................on Detail Level.....................0 Detail Freq......................0 Skintone.........................off Knee..............................on Auto knee......................on Point.............................90 Slope............................0 Knee SAT level...............50 Gamma Level.................0 Select...........................STD3 Black............................-15 Black gamma.................-9 Low key sat..................0 It would be great to have someone validate my results. I'll redo more fine tuning as I go on. For the time being, my latitude is increased above the factory settings, my saturation is more lifelike. The histogram now displays a range from near 0 to 100%. Peaks are well distributed over the range without favoring lows or hi's. I'd be glad to post some frame grabs if a server was available. Time to go test in the real world. I hope this helps out. |
Bill, thanks for performing this DSC calibration for the EX1. I'll give it a shot and report back.
I noticed you used the standard 3 as opposed to the cine curves. Did you give Cine 4 or 3 a try? |
Steve...
yeah, I tried all the gamma presets. All the CINE presets really compress the dynamic range about 30-50% of the available range. I suppose you could boost the LEVEL, but, then, I think you're manually putting the gamma back in the STD preset(I think). |
Ok thanks Bill. I'm looking forward to checking it out.
How well did the calibration go? Were there any problems? |
Thanks for looking at this Bill, I've been waiting for somebody who knows their stuff with charts and monitors to try and get the most latitude from the camera.
I just tried your settings and an initial test indoors produced very saturated and overly red results (compared to PP off). I'll give it a look in the daylight tomorrow. regards Paul. |
Yes, during the quick indoors test, I did notice there is a lot of saturation.
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Thanks Bill I will try tomorrow if there is some sun.
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Your probably going to have to do some testing with different levels of illumination... It would be interesting to see how the RGB curves handle
gain variation... This could affect the color saturation points a different illuminations... might need to setup a profile that you like that coveres the histo like you have it set, but with different ND filters in place also...... |
Bill R preset
Bill,
I just plugged your settings in one of my EX1s. Initially it looks great. Amazing difference. It looks alot like the rough preset I made to match my HVX before I sold it, but better. I will test it out n the next few days while I have a project to see how it looks. I even named it the "Bill R" preset in your honor. Look forward to more testing from you. Thanks, Adam |
Setting up dynamic range is very easy. Setting the colors is much harder. It's pretty much of a trial and error method to get the rotations so everything lines up. Push in on one color and the complement goes out. Needless to say, it's time consumming and tricky to get all 6 color bursts into their target boxes on the vectorscope.This initial matrix I posted was fairly close, but, not perfect. I'll try again when I have more time to experiment.
Since the entire matrix was balanced under incandescent(2700K), I then went outside and re-white balanced for 5800k, but, kept the matrix unchanged. Be sure to white balance before you test this out. By the way, the entire test was run with ND2. I wanted to keep the aperture f4<x<f2.8 Yes, saturation is up. That was part of the goal. The factory colors, IMHO are too unsaturated for my taste. I may still need to dial the red down. It was the predominant color before I started out. Ray... Thanx. I'll post some frame grabs tomorrow. |
So far I like your profile, Bill. The standard Sony setting is completely "bland". That's why I started the "HISAT" profile in this thread. I need to do more shooting with your current profile but it seems very clean.
Carroll Lam |
What do you guys think of Doug jensesns settings as recommened in his training video. They are:
Matrix ON -High Sat, Level 3, Phase and r-g=0 Gamma CINE4 Black -3 Black Gamma -2 Low Key SAT = 0 Detail OFF |
Michael, You only mentioned the first three matrix settings (Level 3, Phase and r-g=0). What were the rest of them?
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1960x1080x30p -3db gain. Other items not mentioned were off or default
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Framegrabs
OK...
Here's a comparison of the EX1 factory settings and my DSC derived Profile, henceforth called TrueColor1. TrueColor1 profile: http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=802&c=2 Factory Settings(PP off) http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=801&c=2 I've saved the PP recipe to my SxS card and copied it to my hard drive. The file format is ASCII, so, it's easy to copy onto your own profile file and loaded into your camera. Here's the recipe: TC1 0000001 0000001 0000000 00007b8 000607b 0000000 000e8d8 000e26a 000d58c 0000e27 0000000 0000000 000337f 0001c72 0007fff 000c0f7 0000000 0000000 0000000 0000000 00015e0 0000001 0000000 0000000 0000000 0000000 0000000 0000000 0000003 0000000 0000000 0000000 0000000 0000000 000a38e 0001c72 0000001 0000001 000d111 0000000 0004052 0000000 0000002 000ecb4 000f46c 0000000 |
Would it not be easier for us to just post the actual picture profile "file" itself and execute it as a file instead of individual adjustments? Then we could have a useful list with the actual PP files like on the XH A1 profile thread?
Mike |
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