Luis,

I suggest you light and shoot a color test, then evaluate the results in FCP using the vectorscope. I lit & shot a simple Macbeth color chart and found these settings gave me problems in the reds (too orange). I then tried these settings and found the results to be much more accurate. I've the FCP video analysis tools combined with a decent monitor calibrated to rec. 709.

Nothing beats shooting a bunch of tests to understand what the STD and CINE curves provide.

anyone know the exact color settings pp recommended by the BBC? Thanks

you should IM Alister Chapman. he might know.

The BBC white paper is at BBC - R&D - Publications - WHP034 - Addendum 27 with a link to the pdf. However, the picture profile settings do not include any recommendation for colour beyond 'roll your own matrix'.

PP1 example ref Jims posting #11.
 

another example of Jims PP1 i posting #11
(file 126 mb so please be patient). This is the setting I personally prefer

color and a good fishing area, looks great :-) ,I always use the filter 486 mounted on the EX1.I did some tests with PP, used in interior settings STD4 with the BBC and outside PP BILL (TC2) CINE3

Indoor Settings
 

I have scanned through many of these pages, and hoping someone can save me some time trying to find what I am looking for.

I am looking for a good PP setting to use indoors, with low light. Nothing but standard lens.
I will probably use Doug Jensens from Vortex unless you guys suggest another profile.

Denny, this is a good thread to check out...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...tings-ex1.html

As a photographer, we shoot our images RAW, capturing all the data as its shot and later we grade or change how it looks, crushing blacks or blowing out highlights, to get a look we want. We do however save the RAW as shot as an "original master".

So my question here is this; do Picture Profiles change the data the EX1 records (ie Destructive), leaving some aspects like shadow detail or highlights lost forever or is it just XML data file (non-destructive) that simply changes how it looks.

thanks in advance

Greg Kiger
St Louis

This is the million dollar question. I have seen so many threads (Canon & Sony) about colour correction, or profiles in-camera. Yes, you are right, these are destructive, but can help you create a look which can be played back instantly. The downside is that you can spend hours trying to restore shadow, highlight, white balance or colour saturation to footage which has been shot with the wrong profile.

I prefer to shoot a flat image, i.e. nothing applied, which is the nearest video can get to shooting RAW. Then use my NLE to apply colour corrections and curves etc. I use a Matrox RTX2 card which allows you to save all the adjustments as a preset, this means I can just drop the preset onto my clip and it is applied instantly. Of course you can make tweaks to any of the settings.

Other people will have different views on the best way of working, but my method works well for me.

Vincent, I might have missed it earlier in the thread, but what profiles do you use to create your "flat" footage? I've been struggling with this a lot lately and would love to use this approach. Unfortunately, I often have to hand off my raw footage to another editor which gives me NO chance to do any post work on it. But, for my own projects, shooting flat would make more sense.

Thanks Vincent.To echo Daves question, are the default settings essentially RAW for the EX1?

meanwhile I will look into the Matrox card, I will also look into FCP to see if I can save a palette of looks.

thanks guys

Greg Kiger
St Louis

Yes, the default settings are meant to produce a flat looking image, from here you can apply curves, colour coorections, saturation etc. Not, quite the same as shooting in RAW with a digital camera, but it will do as a starting point.

You might also want to take a look at Alister Chapmans guide to EX curves.

YouTube - XDCAM EX Gamma Curves and Knee, what they do and which ones to use.

Isn't a flat picture profile very different from RAW just because of the compression down to 4.2.0 (or even 4.2.2 if outputting SDI)? So to my thinking, the closer you get your image coming out of your camera to your finished look the better final quality.

I remember seeing a hack for the DVX-100 where they took the data directly off the imager and ran it to a hard drive - sounded like it might have been similar to a RAW image file. Imagine what you could get if that type of hack was possible with the EX series...

What you want to aim for is head room. If you tweak your image to the highest point of acceptable exposure, or colour saturation, then you can't do much with the final image. However, if you have room to make adjustments in your NLE, then this must be a better option. I would prefer to make my adjustments based on the subject matter rather that a "one profile does it all" scenario.

Using a camera like the EX1 or EX3 is like shooting in JPEG mode. The raw data has already been modified before it hits the data pipe (even when using the SDI output). The footage has already been compressed, and it uses the Picture Profiles as the recipe.

The Red One shoots raw, and their proprietary software is designed to log & process the acquired footage.

One can debate the term "uncompressed" but the HD-SDI out is uncompressed. That does NOT mean it has not been processed. The HD-SDI out is processed by the picture profile but it has not been compressed by the XDCAM codec (when coming live off the head).

Red is a long way from RAW too...

Thanks Vincent. I checked out the U tube piece on EX1 Curves. It differentiates between footage shot with the intention of being graded in post and not. Since my workflow involves grading all footage in post it sounded like I would be best served using the camera's Cine 1, 3 or 4 as a way of capturing the maximum amount of image information and leaving myself the greatest number options in post.

Would you agree with this bit of novice logic or advocate shooting at the flat factory defaults?

as always - thanks to everyone for the informative posts

Greg Kiger
St Louis

I'm under the impression that the 4:2:2 output means it's compressed. If not, wouldn't it be 4:4:4?

In the context of this chart what does "raw" mean then? I see the Red One is "4k" and not raw.

The Red marketing team appropriated the term RAW to help sell the camera. They simply called what comes out of the camera Red RAW in the hope of people associating it with the DSLR RAW format. It actually is a proprietary format using wavelet compression, 12:1-9:1. It doesn't get close to 4K either, after de-bayering, depending on lens and setting, 3.2-2.8K roughly.

Thanks for the clarification!

That's call down-sampling.
rafael

Stage-play picture profile
 

My once a year 2 cam stage-play capture is happening later this week and I'm looking for an appropriate picture profile. Here are some details.

Good tungsten light overall, though center stage is hot. Very colorful costuming/set and plenty of white as well. High contrast stage elements with a black curtain backdrop (both cameras have a 486 IR filter).

The final will be delivered on DVD (and we're considering renting a local cinema for an HD showing). I expect to take advantage of the HD resolution for shot re-framing on the DVD and will try to minimize post color correction.

The profile that looks most pleasing to me so far is STD 4 gamma and detail turned down to -20, frequency +40. Exposure looks perfect when barely touching 100% zebras (although cine gammas tended to blow out at this setting).

Anyone have any tweaks or other suggestions? Is STD 4 my best bet for these conditions?

I do a lot of contemporary dance videos. horrible contrast range for video, hot spotlights, dark curtains and a lot of action in the dark parts of the stage.
I use 2-3 cameras all set to the following setting which I call CINEflat:

0 dB
if possible -3 if absolutely necessary +6 (but never ever more than that)

Matrix on
select Cinema
Level / Phase / R-G all 0

CC off

Offset White off
preset white 3200 (although on stages with modern lights or rock concerts I shoot with 5600)

Gamma Level 0
Select: Cine4

Black Gamma + 25 !!

It is quite a simple profile, but I am happy with the results.

you can see a not color corrected clip at (the noise is from the video projection on the background, not from me...)

or a color corrected video:
with the above settings, I have a lot of freedom to tweak in post, because I have a lot of detail in the blacks and a fairly flat picture, that is why on my PPs the setting is called CINEflat...

hope it helps, let me know .

Hi Oliver,

Your input is very useful! The blacks have been what I've stressed about most and your +25 black gamma looks great, although the potential for introducing noise in the blacks is a concern. I've got one more opportunity for some test shots before the performance and CINEflat is now dialed in for a spin.

Nice job on the videos. LOL at the end of the first one, and the second is also well done with nice CC.

Never considered that modern stage lights could be 5600k. That could be useful information one day. (A couple of HMIs would be nice to have in my kit, too!)

Thanks for taking the time to share your settings.

I second that, very nice video. What format did you shoot in (1080i or p or 720)

Hi Oliver,

I really like the details your getting in your videos. I do stage shows too an have just moved over to the EX3 from a Canon XL H1a. For exposure, do you use the zebras and if so what do you have it set at (70% & 100%)? If you don't use zebras how are you setting exposure?

Thanks,
Garrett

Bill:
noise in the blacks is why I always try to use -3 db if possible, often I have to go to 0db and sometimes I am forced to use +6 but I really try to avoid it. I never change during the show so that the noise stays uniform throughout the film. I found that using +25 in the black gamma gives me the steps in the blacks that I need. (Dark scenes with dancers wearing black in front of a black curtain...) If I wish to crush the black later I still can in post, but if I record it crushed it I can't get the definition back without running into serious noise issues.

Vincent:
I shoot everything in 1080, i or p depending on the look I want. Rarely 720 but only when I need slomo.

Garret:
I never use Zebras. They really annoy me, and with stage shows, where sometimes the only bright parts are a very small part of the picture, they don't really help because the "grid" is too wide to see the zebra properly.
What is essential with the EX3 is that I set up my viewfinder correctly. And then I tape the controls shut! When I first started using the EX3 I had problems when I accidentally touched the controls when taking the camera out of the bag and in a stage setting, when the theater is dark, it is easy to miss when they are off.
If possible I use an external monitor Sony LMD 9050 which I calibrate at my studio before. If I can do this depends on when I have to shoot. Monitors are very annoying for the audience if the piece has a lot of dark scenes, because the monitors emit a lot of light. And on that note: I tape off anything that glows (the V-Mount battery pack) or shines, and whenever I move away from the viewfinder, I turn it down to not disturb the audience, who pays to see dance, not to see me work...

As a general suggestion for shooting stage stuff:
Whenever possible, I try to do a "video runthrough" where I spend about an hour with the lighting guy and some stand ins to reprogram the light changes and situations to match the impression on the video to the intended experience for the audience. In other words: so that the video looks like the real show. Which means that very dark scenes might have a lot more light and the very bright spotlights might be a lot darker, but on the video the ratio between bright and dark resembles the impression the audience has during the show. As you all know, the f-stop range of video is nowhere close to the human eye... This is easy to do and allows me to use the same f-stop on all the cameras througout the show.
The only drawback for a video runthrough is that the energy and "spark" of the dancers is different without an audience. If possible I try to do this for a "pre-premiere" or general rehearsal when they invite schools or friends. But still the energy is not the same. So if possible: get some important people in to watch, for example fellow dancers or choreographers.
Another huge advantage of a video run is that I am free to choose where I want to position the cameras.

some more of my videos: ABAKU's videos on Vimeo
not all of them are shot with the EX3, some with the 450 DVCAM

Using -3db will reduce your dynamic range by @ 5% up top, so you loose more highlight detail in the roll off at the top of the gamma curve. This could be fine if everything is dark, but in high contrast with people in and out of stage lighting your sacrificing a lot of skin detail.
It's hard to judge from vimeo, but the skin tones look pretty flat to my eye.

Detail with Letus
 

Luis Reggiardo - I'm curious to know if you or anyone out there shooting with a 35mm lens adapter has bumped the detail settings up.

I've been using the Bill Ravens settings and they deliver exactly as described - maxing the range in sunny and cloudy conditions, great.

But they decrease contrast, right, and between this and the inevitable softening of image because of the adapter's extra glass, I was wondering if increasing detail would counterbalance this in some small degree. I haven't experimented with this but am curious to know if anyone else has?

Thanks

I don't increase detail in-camera however I have added between 15 points and 25 points of sharpen in post depending on how complex the image is.

More in-camera detail may result in a "softer" image if groundglass grain "noise" plus any gain noise in the image, causes the codec to shed detail to maintain frame rate, so you may not end up any furthur ahead.

I've been using 35mm adapters for years with the Ex-1 and and the HVX200.
I generally run the detail a bit higher when using the adapter.
On an EX that might mean only as high 0 rather than well into the minus numbers.
Its individual choice though and depends on whether you do your own post. Good monitoring helps to make your decision but detail is always tricky to judge.

I can't comment on the pros or cons of adding detail in post rather than in the camera.

Confused and needing help on profile.
 

Woah, there's a hell of a lot of info on this thread, so much so that I can't really find the answer I want so I'll throw it straight out to the floor:
I need a simple, neutral, colour accurate profile for shooting the video look (corporate, etc) which retains the highlights and is clean enough in the shadows and doesn't really need any post correction. (Don't want much really do I?!)
I've played around with lots of settings and generally got into a total muddle.
I don't think I need the Cine settings, and I seem to remember someone stating that STD 2 is 'broadcast safe'.
Simple question, no doubt many answers, all thoughts gratefully received.
Regards,
Oliver.

Get Vortex Media EX1 DVD it gives ideal settings for most situations.

Agree with Bruce buy the Vortex Media EX1 DVD. The DVD is worth the money with great insight into not only the Picture Profile but everything you need to know for putting the camera to work.

would vortex media also be suitable for someone who is doing a lot of narrative stuff short films, features etc. nothing that needs to broadcast spec?


and or any pp that have worked in the past for a film look?

Hi, William . . .

Yes, the Vortex DVD for your camera - regardless of whether you are doing news, sports, short films, documentaries, conferences, etc. - is one of the best investments you'll likely make for your EX cam. Vortex doesn't give advice on anything other than how to get the most out of your camera. You can use the advice to help strengthen your narrative work - or any genre style you shoot with your camera. The Vortex EX1 video runs for about 3 hrs. in length - it's comprehensive and very easy to follow. For me, it continues to offer the best advice, tips-and-tricks, and all good things to get the most from my Sony XDCAM EX.

Hope this helps.

Ian

Removing Green/Yellow color cast
 

I have been noticing more and more a slight Yellow/Green color cast to the standard Sony cameras. I have come up with some changes to the matrix settings that will remove it.
This is a subtle change but really helps with skin tones, stopping on screen talent from looking ill! These settings work in the PMW-350, EX1/3 and PDW-700.

On an EX1/EX3 this works best with the Standard Matrix, On a PMW-350 or PDW-700 you can use it on it's own or mix it with one of the preset matrices as a modifier. User Matrix On, R-G 0, R-B +5, G-R -6, G-B +8, B-R -15, B-G -9