Are you saying 80mm ?

That's odd.

looks like they are going to have a massive headache if this many people have the problem.

if it's something fundamental like design flaw it will cost them a fortune to get all the cameras back.

Looks like they should have used a 3/7th inch sensor instead of 1/2 ;).

All joking aside, I bet they try to fix the problem by effectively cropping the picture inside the camera.

Cropping might now be enough; nobody seems to notice that apart from the corner vignetting (black), the picture area is not evently bright (darker near the edges / corners).

I'm guessing the lens just doesn't have a wide enough coverage. Distinct vignetting at the corners and fall-off towards the edges...

Perhaps this is how they're setting it apart from the (more expensive) F330, etc.?

Doesn't matter what you pay for a lens, they all vignette the image into the corners and wide apertures really show it up. Strangely enough they've given us a simple tool for checking this out: the zebras. Evenly lit surface, wide open aperture, zebras turned on to whatever setting you like. Notice how the center is 1.5 stops brighter than the edges. F/4 evens it up a lot.

tom..

Tom, you're probably right - were it not for the distinct corner vignetting, the brightness fall-off could probably get away unnoticed...

Probably right Piotr? Probably?? big grin.

Yes, of course - you're right. And yes, it becomes strikingly obvious when you film a large, flat, evenly-lit colour (which is generally not how the world presents itself).

(and like Piotr says - it only got noticed in the first place 'cause there's distinct corner vignetting)

This vignetting problem is a headache for those with compact point 'n' shoot digi-still cameras who want to shoot panoramas and have them stitched together by the computer. The pictures often have a sort of sine wave of exposure that fluctuates along the panorama. All down to natural vignetting.

Tom, if I say "probably" is because while you're generally right that most lenses exhibit this to some extent, whether it's acceptable or not depends on the intensity - please don't compare a "Pro" camera lens with the cheap compact point 'n' shoot digi-still cameras :)

I can assure you my V1E doesn't exhibit a brightness fall-off like we see on these grabs posted here to show the EX1's vignetting problem. But then it only has chips half the size of those on the EX1, while the lense sizes are of 62/77 ratio... Now, I know the maths behind it is not that simple, but it clearly does suggest something!

I'm sure that at the early concept design stages, the well established 82mm lens size must have been considered. Why the Sony engineers decided on the 77mm beats me but I guess it was not for engineering reasons at all.

Piotr, when you say, ''that most lens exhibit this to some extent'' the fact is that unless they have a mechanical stop that prohibits the two widest apertures being used (it has been done) then all lenses - regardless of cost - vignette when used at wide apertures. It's just the laws of optics. Hassleblad sell various ND centre-grads to counteract this.

I'm pretty sure your V1 doesn't have this 'mechanical vignetting' as seen on these EX1 samples, but it sure does vignette the image at all focal lengths when you're using wide apertures.

And a small correction. The chips in the EX1 are 30.72 mm2 whereas the V1 uses 8.17 mm2 chips - so your V1's are just over a quarter the surface area of the EX1's.

tom.

Has anybody had any acknowledgement from either Sony themselves (OK: unlikely) or a Sony dealer yet that there is actually a problem?

The longer this goes on without such an acknowledgement, the greater the damage to sales from them being "in denial" will be.

Tom, I was comparing the linear chip sizes and linear lens sizes; you're of course right as to the surface difference.

And one more thing: in order to counteract the inherent deep DOF and any possible diffraction softness, I'm almost exclusively shooting with apertures of 4 and wider; yet I've never seen such a noticeable fall-off on the V1E.

Yes, the relationship you are speaking of is the cosine squared law, so the edges of the image must be less bright than the centre. The greater the angle the greater the fall off, so wide angle lenses have noticeable fall off. I'd be very glad to see somebody do a quantitative test. Not hard to measure the gradient from centre to edge. Then we could determine whether the gradient follows the usual law or if something unusual is happening. I'd do it if I had received a camera, but I haven't. All these frame grabs of curtains and carpets tell me nothing except that someone needs to take a systematic look to see if there is or is not a problem. So far we have 15 pages of chicken little speculations.

See I don’t really understand your thinking on this. Clearly you know way more about photography science than many on this forum (myself included) but do you really need a degree in math to see that the image is unsatisfactory?

Also given this issue only seems to be effecting certain cameras...doesn’t that all but prove it IS a problem and not a gradient following the usual law in which case ALL EX1's would exhibit the same ‘issue’?

Removed by user

Sorry, but I value real world tests more than any chart or mathematical calculations about the performance of the cameras. Many of us have used this camera and experienced this fault first hand so the results posted so far are much more than "chicken little speculations", they are the result of actual tests using the camera.

I'm actually getting to the point where I'd be more surprised to see footage posted showing the 10 - 25mm zoom range without this problem. It's quite easy to produce material with the camera not showing this issue, you just have to avoid the 10 - 25mm zoom range or shoot subjects where the effect is not apparent.

Watch this clip, the natural vignetting at each extreme does look like a fairly normal gradient, but the top left corner showing at 10 - 25mm (around 3 seconds in) is an entirely different thing.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachmen...2&d=1195761898

With all due respect to Serena and Tom, I also think no scientific methods are needed to see there is a serious problem. I agree that any lense will show vignetting with aperture open wider than the camera is designed for (hence the "mechanical stops" Tom is mentioning), but it doesn't change the simple fact that within the normal (i.e. allowed) aperture openings and zoom/focus range, a camera must not show corner vignetting or brightness fall-off as apparent as have been shown in this thread.

I'm not bashing the EX1; in fact I am myself in a very difficult situation as I not only have ordered one, but paid for it in full almost a month ago, having been attracted by its undisputable virtues and advantages! What's more, I also purchased the newest and fastest (and most expensive) Sony Vaio laptop with ExpressCard reader and BluRay drive, to provide for the EX1 workflow... To loyal customers like myself and many others, Sony owes an explanation of the vignetting problem nature and possible remedies, as well as its impact on delivery time.

Luckily enough, I didn't sell my old good V1E and EX1- incompatible accessories for less than they're worth...

As a comparison, the clip linked to below shows my XH-A1 set up in the same way as the EX1.

Sony EX1: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachmen...2&d=1195761898

Canon XH-A1: http://www.olikai.com/forum_images/xha1zoom.mov

You can see that both have a natural vignetting at the extreme zoom range, but the canon does not suffer from anything like the same problem elsewhere.

Please do us a favor AND DO NOT DERAIL this thread with your perceptions.
It's a KNOWN problem (even pointed out by Adam Wilt with the pre-production EX1). Sony "IS" working on it. It's not normal vignetting.
It's mainly seen between 10-25mm focal range. NO it's not seen at wide open where ONE would expect it to be the worse.

In fact, Sony HAS been following this thread

Here's a message posted at Mr Phillip Blooms's blog:
>>
" Phil from Glasgow
Phil I went to the IOV show last month (UK
video show) and Sony's demo camera suffered
this vignetting very badly on the left of
screen, I have tried many times to log onto
DVINFO to pass on this info with no joy.
Sony told me it was a faulty image
stabilizer (IS) and a known bug that would
be fixed by the time these cameras went to
production. Looking at some of the chaps on
DVINFO Sony have not cured this problem and
we are still seeing this IS problem. I am
due to receive this camera on Friday and
will be pretty P***ed off if I also get this
problem. Sony have delayed this camera in my
opinion to overcome this problem, it's a
shambles.
Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 09:30 PM "
<<

Sorry for the long quote, there was no easy way of linking just this section from the page:
http://web.mac.com/philip.bloom/Phil.../28_Day_1.html

Here's an email I received this morning from my Sony dealer:

>>
"
Here’s this morning’s info.

Sony is working on figuring out the vignetting issue. The problem has been reported by a number of customers, but only a few of those who have already received their cameras. They have an engineer on his way to Japan to figure out what the problem is. For instance, was this only a certain series of serial numbers, or a wider issue, what is the cause, and how to resolve it?
"
<<

It may not be worth much, but heres a theory...

Steady-Shot OIS is an opto-mechanical correction of the image before it lands on the imagers (unlike cheaper 'digital IS' which centre-crops the image)then it is possible the problem units are suffering from an OIS that is mis-positioned such that (regardless of being ON or OFF) it is passing a wider FOV to the imagers than it should - hence the vignetting.

Maybe I'll catch the next flight to Japan and take my screwdriver set with me ;0)

At least Sony are fezzing up and admit they are working on a solution. Lets hope it's not a complete re-design to fix ( EX2 anyone? ).

Cheers,
Dave.

HI

I will give Sony a call to report the issue with my ex, is there a specific US phone number everyone is using?

Thanks

Chuck

Sony:
1-800-883-6817
Press 252 for direct dept.

Talked again just now. Sony Japan is fully aware of the issue and is working on a solution.
This is the best support I've ever witnessed from a company.
They called me a couple times yesterday.

When I tested my dealer's camera, who's also been a shooter, was surprised when it was happening at the "wrong" end of the zoom.

I suspect the reason that Sony is not getting more reports is that many may not know what to look for, recognize it as an anomaly, haven't had a reason to look for it or spotted it under "normal" use. Not everyone is hooked into these "boards."

My dealer wouldn't have ever bothered to look for or notice it had I done the test and found a grey background to test against.

Yes there are indeed strong indications of a problem but the point I was making is that the "tests" are unsystematic and inconclusive. In any case it isn't the rough indications of vignetting that gave cause for my comment (they're real enough), but the endless speculation on whether the lens is undersized or faulty and whether or not Sony is interested. I could point out that my Canon EOS 5D has a zoom lens with a 77mm filter and that covers a full 35mm frame; the diameter of the lens affects the maximum aperture (f/stop) but not field coverage; that's why in cheaper zoom lenses the f/number ramps at longer focal lengths. You may think that random images are real world, but actually measurement is what the real world is about; that provides the information that manufacturers need.

Says who?
Please don't question others who you know NOTHING about.

Most of us here are professionals. IMO (and many others agree), this forum is the best thing going.
Chris keeps a tight control of his site and no doubt he offers the best professional atmosphere for us to share our thoughts and ideas in a constructive manner.

I've been working for Nikon as a project owner for over 12 years.
I clearly understand about illumination uniformity. No math is needed here,
it's an obvious problem. We know the problem exists and so does Sony Corp.

Again, I ask you to please not derail this thread with your speculation.
The last thing we need is for Chris to close the thread due to ONE person.

Again, I've been told directly fron Sony, they are reading this thread.
Sony told me they have had reports world wide not just in the states.

OK. Perhaps I should have rephrased my comments.

I'm sorry Serena, you are well respected here, there's a lot of us concerned regarding this issue. We know of one who returned the camera for this issue.

Judging from the thread with posts from DVInfo sponsors, they don't seem to be aware of the issue.

Maybe some with orders from DVInfo sponsors can drop by the sponsoring dealers and check with their test/show cameras with someone of authority from the dealer.

So many of us have now seen the issue and some have posted examples. My guess the dealers really aren't looking that closely or at all for issues like this.

If the dealers spot it, it might signify to them and Sony how widespread this actually is.

Just tested a dealers promo of the EX-1 today. Very nice camera in many many ways but yes it was there. I didn't check it in anything but a low lit room looking at a white wall with iris fully open. I can't remember how much I varied the focus. Much worse with steady shot on.
Definite vignetting on the upper and lower right of the image to a lesser extent the right as well.
Weird that it is not there at fully wide zoom. Seemed to arrive around 8mm and continue to get worse by 15 or so and remained there till at least 25.
Its a problem in any otherwise very very nice camera. Who am i supposed to complain to again?
I'm ready to buy aside from this.

Lenny Levy

I'm confident Sony will come up with a solution.
I imagine all the affected cameras will have to be sent in.

It sounds something like what JVC had to do with the HD100 split screen issue.

Sorry, problem posting.

Another Vignette Test
 

Has anyone gathered info on the vignette issue showing the f-stop where it clears up? For example, if you find the worse case situation with the zoom and then start closing down the iris, where does the problem disappear.

Robert, I have not, but this would be good information.
I believe we've all been checking at wide open 1.9

The images I posted were done at at about f/5.6.

Carroll Lam

I was hoping that it would be completely gone by f/4.0; you still had a slight amount in the upper right corner.