Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

You would need his raw unedited files to really check though.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I now note that Dan used a polarizer which may have enabled greater dynamic range to be captured.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Must say Dan's footage is the best I have seen so far from this camera, it was partly cloudy that day so that can have an effect on perceived dynamic range but nevertheless it looks very good, also the indoor footage.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I agree; by far and away the best I have seen off the RX10. Dan did a great job. I am encouraged, may I say re-enthused.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

That's very interesting Ron. I need to understand how that works in Vegas Pro 12, if in fact it does. You don't happen to know Vegas Pro do you? Or even if you would be so kind as to point me in the right direction in Edius that might be a useful point of departure for me.

Many thanks...

My apologies for the somewhat off-topic deviation.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

What app can I use to control the camera with my smartphone?

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Definitely another "must have" accessory - polarizer to cut glare - have one on the RX100M2, well worth having... must go check out Dan's work, as he had good mastery of the RX100M2, which should help with the RX10!

As for the Camera store review -
Snow is another one of those "worst case" scenarios - but again, "- EV" would be your friend. Polarizer is a good add, and I'm looking forward to experimenting with the DRO more. All in all, even if the snow WAS "hot", the images overall looked pretty decent - skin/face exposure and tones looked good - the camera does seem to favor proper exposure for the likely "subject" over whatever background "radiation" levels might be. What I did see looked quite promising, and with a little adjustment, I should think any "issues" could be dealt with.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I do use Vegas 12 but mainly for audio so am not used to fine tuning of video in Vegas. You can see the effect though easily by placing an AVCHD clip from a Sony camera on the time line, view waveform to see that ire is around 109 most of the time for white, then apply the Broadcast filter to the clip. The whites will blow out and loose all detail when viewed in the preview monitor. Just like the hot snow of the Camera Store video. The equivalent to YUV filter for Edius in Vegas would be the levels control but I am not good at explaining these. The control is easier in Edius. Matthew Scott is the expert at grading in Edius Matthew Scott Cinematography Blog

Ron Evans

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Ron, many thanks for that, most appreciated. I need to get up to speed with that and playing around with the BMPCC and Resolve has been something of an eye opener. I do understand that learning to use the RX10 in order to extract the most from it will also involve upgrading my Vegas Pro skills.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Folks need to get over saying pros don't use AVCHD. That's a completely ridiculous assertion with no basis in reality.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Dan Carter's style and his preference have always been shooting from a solid support i.e. tripod, monopod etc. with minimal camera movement and quite often stationary with static scenes. This is a type of shooting that stresses the codec, focusing/exposure/AWB response significantly less than typical handheld shooting with moderate camera movement does.

For instance, my Sony CX760E, now a two generation old design, has 24, 17, 9 and 5 Mbps 25p AVCHD modes. For talking head shooting with some subject's hand, arm and facial movements but with the camera mounted on the tripod, all of my assistants in the studio, myself included, mostly cannot tell the differences between the 24, 17, 9 Mbps files played back on our 23 and 27 inch 1080p Samsung monitors. Only when we go down to 5 Mbps do we see some differences in artifacts and smearing of fine details but even so they are still not quite noticeable when viewed on a 50 inch HDTV from about 7-8 foot distance.

I'm pretty sure the RX10 will show similar characteristics with respect to compression artifacts in it's video modes. However it should do somewhat better as it's a newer design but we won't know for sure unless someone mounts it on a solid bracket along with the likes of GH3, GX7, G6 or RX100 and shoots the exact same scene with identical movement.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I think that it's not that you "can't" use AVCHD, it's the feeling that the max bitrate (28Mbps in 60p) is not quite up to the task when there's a lot of motion in the frame, resulting in artifacts and less detail than the cameras are capable of, due to the results of the necessary compression and resulting loss.

I've found 60p to be pretty clean when freezing frames, but it has to be stressing the limits of the bitrate in complex scenes with high motion - more data points changing that have to be "handled". 24p will reduce the number of frames and take some stress off the bitrate (IIRC 24p tops at 24Mbps?), but then you get the problems with potential stutter when motion is involved...

Seems like the complaints are with scenes with more motion, but otherwise the CODEC is holding up fairly well. This of course will become quite a bit more interesting when 4K becomes the expected capability - you somehow have to process all those extra data points and still be able to write it to memory, and of course play it back too... more heavy processing... and more storage space...

HDV had problems "back in the day", and that wasn't long ago, earlier implementations of AVCHD at lower bitrates were "OK", but better bitrate = more data points = better images... - it's a constant engineering battle to handle more and more data...

EDIT: I see Wacharapong was posting at the same time... yes, lower motion stresses the codec less, fewer changing data points per frame (more "similar" data points from frame to frame that don't have to be dealt with), so you can "get away with" lower bitrates and it still may look OK... of course those of us who like to shoot things moving about quickly, while shooting handheld with minimal additional support might have different expectations <wink>.


All that aside, the RX10 looks pretty good to me overall, should be a handy and versatile tool. 5 years from now, it'll probably look "dated", but that's tech. Actually, might look "dated" by next year, but right now, it's in a class by itself.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Well my FDR-AX1 at 60P looks nice. That data rate is 150Mbps. So for 4 times the pixels that data rate is 5.4 times that of AVCHD with a newer codec implementation. It needs a fan to keep it cool though !!! But to be fair the difference between 24Mbps 60i of my NX5U and 50Mbps of the FDR-AX1 at 60P 1920x1080 is not noticeable on the things I have shot so far. The FDR-AX1 has a cleaner image. All on a tripod and low movement though.

The processing needed for 4K at the moment needs a big box and a fan. Not something one would expect in something like a RX10. However an external box with a fan may be perfect !!! If one can get a connector that will stay in place on the camera.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I agree, there are issues with the codec in certain situations and it is far from perfect. I bump against these limits all the time when shooting in AVCHD. My point is that in several RX10 reviews there is a fair amount if complaining about the codec and its unsuitability for pro work. This statement is patently wrong. Having issues does not remove it from the pro arsenal. And, for its faults, it also does quite a lot very well. Just pointing that out for anyone new to the format that may be swayed by these rediculous statements.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

This.
Showtime didn't seem to have any problem paying me for the video I shot for them on my FS100.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

It's no different than there being the potential for strong moire with the BMPCC.
It doesn't change the fact that it can deliver an image as good as nearly any you'd want for a quality TV spot.
It is a limitation in certain, very real circumstances (like AVCHD can cause low resolution in areas of motion in certain circumstances.)
But of course it can be used for pro work.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Anyone who has a problem with the RX10 at 28mbps AVCHD can simply connect the camera to a $695 Ninja 2, and have a ProRes camera that will run with the big dogs for less than $2000:







Recording to ProRes, the image quality and gradeability seem to me to be significantly improved:







These two videos (along with Andrew Reid's "Run and Gun" and Dan Carter's "Arizona Biltmore Resort") have put this camera back on my radar screen.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Imagine having this sensor and zoom lens in a true camcorder body, with ND filters, XLR inputs, SDI, timecode in/out and recording to XAVC.
That would be one heck of a run and gun camera, with shallow depth of field better than S16.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Then it would be the FS700 :)

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

The quality in that video from Christopher above looks fantastic from the RX10.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

It would be great to see some more samples with some clips shot to the internal of the RX10 and to a Ninja or something similar. I know that there is a difference but....... oh hang on I could always hire a Ninja for a day.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

^
And to grade these clips in a neutral manner, not super saturated to hide subtle variations as too many of the report samples are, both n grading and inthe sue of the vivid setting.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

We're in the earliest of stages of seeing what this camera might do.
Everyone's busy on the holiday, with a few grabbing shots as they try out settings.

What I'm seeing so far is pretty much the camera I was hoping for. An outdoor all-in-one system that will look really good under 800 ISO and maybe great under 400 where I shoot 95% of everything we produce.


I'd be using this with a semi-permanent variable ND to get the most out of that Zeiss glass and to keep it in the proper range.
And who knows, with a ninja and NR off (always) it might look great at higher ISOs with a little good post NR.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Of course there's no ideal anything, and if there were an ideal camera, you certainly wouldn't be paying $1300 for it. But the RX10 was certainly developed to check off virtually every box that a lot of shooters/producers have been asking for for several years.
Sony was actually paying attention.
In this case, it's not about being incredible, it's a camera that seems to be good enough at everything a DSLR could/should be by now - and they actually did it.
It seems Sony has, in a way, done what Canon did about 5 years ago with the 5DII - except Sony did it intentionally.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

This is a sort of "90% camera", plus or minus. IOW, it's a camera that should cover MANY possible shooting situations well enough to satisfy a reasonably particular "enthusiast" buyer, and tick many boxes for the pro that is looking for a "serious" camera for casual and some pro use. All in a fairly compact package.


Some of the observations in those links are helpful to understand the market dynamics - MOST of the images/video being shot and shared today... are probably from CELL PHONES... it's the camera that is in everyone's pocket (the camera that is "best" is the one you have with you when the moment strikes...). Arguably, the "quality" is marginal to outright BAD, from a "serious" photographic standpoint, but it's the CONTENT that matters, so they sort of deal with it... that's probably "enough"... and unless the consumer wants to spend quite a bit, they probably won't be complaining enough to justify buying a "real" camera. And if they DO, they probably won't carry the extra device(s) most of the time!

And of course each new generation of cell phones will have a better "tiny" sensor module, with a tiny lens, but it WILL take better and more acceptable pictures/video - it's inevitable, and the "consumer" point and shoot and basic camcorder is likely already "dead", it just hasn't faded out of the market... EVEN IF the average P&S and low end video cam likely outperforms the cell phone, people just aren't going to carry 2-3 electronic "toys".

The short of it is that "consumers", who are enamored of tablets and cell phones are "OK" with the limited image quality they provide... leaving a rather more limited market for "enthusiasts" and "pros". There's a big gap between those who know what an "f-stop" is and those who probably think it means something entirely different...


Manufacturers have to step up their game to produce something worth spending money on In a tight economy...

The "pro" or enthusiast image/content creator WILL spend more for a "serious" camera, but also probably appreciates not having to lug around a huge bag of expensive gear everywhere (and likely already HAS most of that gear). Sony "gets" this - the RX100 found an entirely new market - a small camera that had superior image capture capability... it beats a cell phone or P&S, and has full manual video, and they sold a lot of 'em...

The RX10 represents another "new market" - it's a very capable still camera, and they realized that it could ALSO be a very capable video camera. Sure, it's not a traditional video camera form factor, but if you've shot with an SLR or any of Sony's earlier bridge models, you realize it's pretty easy to shoot with. I've said already that it's "expensive" as a stills camera, but not so much as a video camera... think about it for a minute, and you'll realize if it were a "Handycam", it'd be several hundred dollars MORE than the $1300 price. And the stills from a Handycam don't cut it, from my experience. It may indeed prove quite interesting to see what if anything Sony's video division does with this sensor/processor combo...

I don't know if the RX10 will be the "ideal" camera, but it will cover so many bases that it will likely be the "hammer" that I grab when I need a little more than the RX100M2 can do and I don't mind a little bigger camera. The two together will be nifty multicam setup in a small package.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I needed a replacement camera for my nex-ea50 that I sold a few days ago so I went ahead and ordered the rx10 yesterday and did some very quick shots just now, I have too much editng work to spend enough time with the camera at this moment but I"m very impressed what this little powerhouse offers, what I have seen so far is a usable 6400iso and a very effective stabilisation, even at full tele. Also the viewfinder is good so I don't need to add another loupe for the lcd screen. I have one last wedding this year (on 14 Dec) and this thing will be with me all day, then I can say and probably show some more real life footage, the venue I will be shooting in has some challenging lightconditions.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

For those who've used this camera, has there been any issues with overheating in video mode?

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

The manual states that if you restart immediately after the 29 minutes cut off the camera immediately upon warning because it might shut down due to overheating. I have never explored this.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

There was a document included in the package stating that if the camera or card got hot during recording it was normal behavior, not sure how that will be in real life use.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Definitely would like to see some heat/time tests, since this was a major issue with the NEX and early Alpha APS-C cameras. I would expect SOME thermal gain from the sensor and processor, especially since they supposedly are reading the entire sensor and at 5K...

REALLY hope they got the thermal issues under control in this one - I suppose I probably should try toasting the RX100M2 with some long clip video recording... haven't noticed any problems or any reports, but haven't "stress tested" either.

I've wondered why they didn't shoehorn 4K into this little beastie - maybe it would have melted the memory sticks! From the specs, MOST of the capability is there for 4K output, but as our own Ron Evans has reported, the 4K cameras run pretty hot, and require an internal fan... all those little 1's and 0's running around must create a heckuva lot of friction!

Anyone in the southern hemisphere got hands on an RX10 - it's cold enough to snow here... even if I had one, it'd probably not get very warm at the moment!

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Sonyalpharumors states that Sony says the RX10 has less power consumption than the RX100MII, so it will have less overheating issues.

Actually, they linked to this article about Sony cameras:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news...he-camera-game

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I have been away for a week shooting in the bush with no net coverage and just got out, has anyone bought the RX10? and if so please let me know how this camera is going so far.

Cheers

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I got it, will be using it on a wedding next week, will let you know how it went.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Fantastic mate, look forward to all the good and not so good opinions that you have with this camera.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I've posted my rather lengthy write up of my thoughts after using the RX10 for about a week...

A truly first of it's kind bridge camera with a versatile lens and tons of good details

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Nice writeup. Looks like a great cam.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

thanks, there's also now plenty of videos to look at

https://vimeo.com/groups/219595

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Thanks Darren for that write up. Cheers

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I think my main obstacle in this camera is the lack of 1080p30 output. It's just so odd that Sony includes 1080p60 (a non standard) and neglects a standard format like 30p... Forcing you toss half the data (in a challenged codec) to get it.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

My guess is that this camera is just a test bed for a camera that will incorporate the Full readout into 4K, and they just want to get feeback to fine tune the camera that will become their entry into mass market 4K.