Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Slashcam reports that the moire is from the electronic IS system, and with that turne off it approaches C300 levels of moire free detail.

Test: Sony DSC-RX10 - The camcorder Killer: From the measured laboratory

They call,this a camcorder killer and say that with IS turnd offit approaches the very best results.

Other tests show the smearing of low light detail from NR.

So turn n all the automatic goodies and it is a good camcorder, and turn them off and it approaches the best results if you stay within the optimal DR and ISO range,

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Bill, thank you for your warm kind words. appreciated!

Johnnie

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Hi Philip.

I will try and verify Slashcam findings with Sony engineering.

Thanks!

Johnnie

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Not to sound abrasive or arrogant here -- but I'm curious to know what experience you have had and/or how you know that Sony will "listening very carefully to the given feedback and very eager to improve their products to meet our needs." That's certainly a very different experience I've had with my complaints & suggestions for their RX100. Pray tell.

-- peer

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Hi Peer.

We at cinema5d are very much in close contact with the leading camera and accessories manufactures due to the nature of our work.

I can tell you from my experiance that there is an open ear and genuine willingness from most of them and Sony being at the front to try and make products that will serve us better.

Thank you!

Johnnie

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Sony might listen to their clients for developing features for every new model that comes out but my experience is also they don't listen to clients of existing models, a good example is the nex-ea50 where several improvements where asked of which being able to quickly scroll through all iso values with the menu wheel just like you can do with the shutterspeed was one of the most requested. Sony did release a firmware update but that included features almost nobody asked for.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Johnnie -

Thanks for popping in, that piece was quite enjoyable! Always helpful to actually hear from the shooter firsthand, and one with experience who can clarify what they found, and how a shoot was done! Would be curious how much if any "external" gear you needed or if this was just mostly camera handheld - looked very very good from the standpoint of camera work. As everyone says, the story took precedence over "technical", meaning the camera work was doing it's "job", but it's still interesting to know the behind the scenes!

In my mind, while I could find a few little things to pick at, overall the video looked good. Better than the typical "HD" over cable good, and better than a lot of HD stuff I see on my computer screen. Not bad for a camera at this price point!

I'm sure Sony can release a firmware update to address any little "annoyances" - and I'd also suspect they are still "fine tuning" this new design, glad to hear they are listening to feedback, and it may well be that they can squeeze even more out of the camera with updates?


Phil -
Interesting results... sort of a tradeoff, active IS is of course handy for "run and gun" handheld use, but you have to give up a "little" image quality... OK, I can accept that. One more setting to experiment with! Very deep feature set... methinks having time on the RX100/M2 will be helpful, but there will still be a learning curve...

I noticed Slashcam mentioned the WB in video, I presume from the translation they couldn't figure out how to set custom WB... you can SET (one push) custom WB in stills mode, and then SELECT (but oddly not SET it!?) in video, not intuitive, stumbled across the way to set it while fumbling around! Their low light results were fairly consistent with how the RX100M2 performs - you bump the ISO and drop shutter speed, it'll get noisy, but still get you the shot - that f/2.8 will be quite helpful.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Hi Noa.

It has been a long time since I've touched the EA50 pre.production model.

I will do my best and send your request to the responsible product manager.
We have nothing to lose by trying...

Thank you!

Johnnie

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Dear Dave. Thanks for watching the video and commenting.

The only other piece of kit I've used is Sony's XLR-K1M (Professional XLR adapter and microphone kit).
I've used it in the "Pizza scene" as I wanted to test it in a relative loud environment.

Other then that I did some interview with the guys but it never made it to the final edit. There I used a small Manfrotto tripod F&V Z180 LED light and Sennheiser's G2 wireless system.

Thank you!!

Johnnie

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

That would be great, thx! How is it with the rx10, can you quickly change the iso values? With the ea50 you can only assign 3 iso values to the switch on the side of the camera, if you want to change a iso you need to re-assign iso values to that same switch through the menu which is a big waste of time in a run and gun situation. My experience working with dslr's is that you need to be able to quickly change to whatever iso the camera has.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Hi Noa.

Yes, Changing ISO on the RX10 is as very easy and fast.

Thanks.

Johnnie

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Hi Johnnie,

Loved the segment mate, I forgot about the camera I was checking out. I'm so looking forward to having this little camera in my bag. I have a full ENG shoulder camera with all the fruit but this RX10 and me will become great mates. I shoot also on the C300 and 5D and the 5D is collecting dust and the C300 does not get used much either. I'm after a fun camera again and I hope the RX10 is the bad boy.....

Great work again.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

The only think I"d be interested in is how the camera deals with highlights because what I have seen so far hightlights are very harsh (also seen in Johnnie's video around the 02:22 mark), also seen this especially on faces where hotspots quickly seem to appear.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

One other possible "feature" that might cause blown highlights (in cases like the strong backlit scenes) is the face recognition - it may be that as the camera tries to expose close to properly for skin tones it pushes the exposure so that foreground/skintones are not underexposed? I would think EV shift "should" compensate for the camera's "auto", but "backlight compensation" is one of those things where the camera tries to be smarter than the operator, so not 100% sure...

I guess my take is that if the camera can keep the main subject looking pretty good when the lighting or backlighting is less than optimal, I'm good with that. If I have enough manual control to improve on the "auto" when the situation warrants, even better. Sonys tend to overexpose, other brands have different "tendencies", you deal with the "features", that's part of tech toys...

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Been playng wth an RX10, judging from the LCD it appears that the Deep and Portrait settings have much greater DR. Also, other settings do alter DR. I have set up a hgh DR test bed, and will play deeper into settings tomorrow. I know that these settings do give at least one and a half stops more DR if you also minimize contrast setting.

Doing a rough estimate of DR by observing differences in what it takes to set off zebra set at 100 when shadow area is still visible.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Don't think that any auto exposure was used in the "en&is" video and you shouldn't use that if there is a dedicated iris ring on the lens, controlling the exposure manually is on of the key elements of getting a good image, based on the footage I saw so far it looks that highlights, especially whites or sun on faces, burn out easily which make it look like a cheap handicam under those circumstances.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Oh no, how horrible! Do you think I should cancel my order and get a GH3 instead :-)

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

If you use the Deep or Portrait settings with contrast at -3 then there is at least one and a half
more stops DR. I have been testing a RX10.

EOSHD has panned the AVCHD implementation as breaking apart with motion at 50/60p, but not so much at 24/25p. I have yet to use 60p, so I have no idea, All my tests so far are oriented purely to maximizing DR. And I shoot at 24p. Have not shot scene with motion, just large DR setups.

Exclusive review - Sony RX10 » EOSHD.com

It is hardly an exclusive review, he bought an RX10 at a shop, same as everyone else. But I will look at what he says. BTW he is correct that the HDMI out is a micro HDMI that I would not trust. And the manual is horrible, totally unusable with absolutely no mention of what certain features in the camera are, just completely ignored.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Again, I am struck by the size of this camera (I like it).

As for me, there's a reason I gave up on low bitrate AVCHD. I will rent this camera to test[/URL], but I'll probably stick with the GH3 and BMPCC for motion pictures I care about.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I looked at Johnnie and Andrew's videos. The are both are very skilled videographers. I don't think Sony's implementation of the AVCHD codec is ready for professional applications. With a camera as nicely built as the RX10 I think they should have gone with a codec similar or equivalent to the GH3.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Dear friends.

I can confirm the following regarding Sony’s RX10 SteadyShot as stated by Sony’s technical marketing manager:

-Optical SteadyShot Active Mode: roll correction is achieved by crop-out of the picture.
-Optical SteadyShot Standard Mode: pitch and yaw correction are done only with optical stabiliser function, therefore no cropping.
-OFF: Neither optical nor electrical stabilisation is processed.

The resolution of Active Mode is a bit worse than the other 2.
Standard mode and OFF should be the same image quality.

Thank you!

Johnnie

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

You could also start to learn how to use your pocketcam and save yourself another 1000+ dollar :) You might find that hard to believe but there still exist people that do find good overall image quality important for their productions.

I think it would be a perfect replacement if one of my sony cx730's would die, it should be a better camera in a lot of areas, especially in terms of control, though not so sure how it would compare in low light. I currently use my handicams exclusively for indoor ceremony at a wedding or to record danceperformances and for that they are perfect little camera's but for all the rest I prefer a dslr.

In the eoshd video I also see burned out whites, only wonder how that would look if there is a white wedding dress on a sunny day.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Looks like the same how the sony cx handicam series deal with stabilization, active mode also crops a part of the image to further improve stabilization.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Ha ha, oh come now, Noa, surely you are not saying the BMPCC is able to do what the RX10 can do, that they are comparable? I am still playing around with my BMPCC, learning. I like the ProRes image, raw bores me to tears. It's still a pig to operate but I haven't put it up for sale, for now.

The RX10 - the more I see and read the more I like it. One videographer whom I respect who now has one says it outperforms his GH3 and his GX7. The videos out there, more and more on YouTube everyday are not dissuading me in the slightest either. If you have a moment of remarkable lucidity and decide to sell your GH3 and purchase a RX10 then do let me know. Now that I have a couple of Panny lenses I might be tempted to get a GH3 in order that I might have first hand experience, side by side if you will. Naw, the GH3 just doesn't tick enough boxes though as you have demonstrated it is possible to get nice video out of the thing.

The RX10 - might just be the cat's pajamas :-)

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I"m still waiting for your "meet me in big sur" HX20v counterpart but I"m sure the rx10 will even do much better in your capable hands :) When you get the camera show how good it is instead of telling it, then I might replace my gh3.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Pardon me for going a little off-topic, is it you John who posted a BMPCC video (ProRes) of Waikawa Bay a while back. I remember loving those gorgeous shots despite some being out of focus but that's understandable given how "pig" the camera is to operate. If you did post that I suggest you forget about getting the RX10 and saving some more money for a real video camera instead. Not only does the codec break down noticeably when stressed, the resolution, dynamic range and gradation in static scenes don't appear to be much different from a number of palm-sized Sony Handycams I use, e.g. CX760E, PJ760VE and NX70P. I'm afraid no matter how hard you try the image you get will just not be comparable to that Waikawa Bay video.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Thank you Wacharapong; that was indeed me. I should first point out that I consider image capturing devices somewhat like golf clubs. Even though I don’t play golf I find the analogy useful as most people have an understanding of the game. I would no more think of approaching the fun of image capturing as a one-camera exercise than one would head out onto the golf course with just one club in the bag. Which camera to pull out of the bag is very much determined by the lay of the land and what I am trying to achieve bearing in mind the important variables. Even if I was intent just on putting practice I might bring along more than one putter and chose as I see fit at the time. It’s not this or that but rather this and that.

Another useful analogy is to consider motor vehicles. What is the best motor vehicle? Bearing that in mind what do you suggest in the way of a real video camera?

One camera missing from my bag of tricks is a walk-about device that is lightweight and highly portable; that captures both high quality still photographs and decent quality video as well as checks most if not all of my boxes and that is quick and easy to use. The camera I have that comes closest to fitting that bill is a NEX 5n with a Sony E 18-200mm F3.5-6.3 attached. For my purposes this setup has limitations that the RX10 will resolve.

Regarding the AVCHD codec deployed in the RX10 could you please point me to footage that demonstrates the shortcoming you mentioned? That would be most appreciated. I have several cameras that record AVCHD and have not experienced that phenomena as yet. Mind you, I don’t really do heavy grading.

In any event my plan to add the RX10 to my kit is not to replace any of my other clubs but to compliment them. My lowly HX20v has a place too and when Noa sends me the round trip ticket plus expenses I shall pop it into my pocket and go shoot the Big Sur thing for him. Of course I will also need a couple of weeks recovery time in Honolulu paid for. Be that as it may the RX10 I believe will do many things better than the HX20v does, and vice versa.

Based on the specifications, the footage especially MTS files I have viewed and the rapidly emerging mini-reviews of experienced videographers I am thus far convinced that purchasing an RX10 is money well spent. Whether or not I shall be able to deliver Waikawa Bay Way quality footage (in focus) using the RX10 I shall explore, of that you can be sure. I hear what you are saying and thank you for your input. I shall attempt to understand the dynamics involved. But that is not the end of the story as I don’t see the RX10 as a direct replacement of the BMPCC. I certainly do not expect the RX10 to be such a pig to operate; in fact I believe it might just be fun.

Cheers...

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

If the RX10 faces anything in the market it is that distinctly dual personality - is it a still camera that shoots video or a video camera that shoots stills...?? Yes, yes it is...

I've already said that the photographer will say "too expensive" (from that standpoint it is, sort of - I'm trying not to think of what I have in my Alpha cams in comparison...), and the video guy will have a bit of trouble getting their head around a still camera with video emphasis... It's a new class of camera, there will probably be a few kinks to work out (hopefully via firmware updates), and it's a unique "hammer" - one that may not fit everyone's toolbox, but for many, it could be one fine tool, even if there are some "flaws".

I'm not seeing any "fatal" flaws in footage I've seen, as in deal breakers - not something I can say for some other "popular" cameras I've tried or considered. I'd even say some shots have stood out as "eye candy" - good camera work, but also a good camera... you can sort of tell that whatever the "critiques" that one must have in a review, the camera was not overly standing in the way of creativity and good camera work, if that makes sense.

I'm trying to remember when I last shot video with a video camera... lately it's been the RX100/M2 and the HX300 - why? Because they are small, light, easy to get acceptable results with, and yeah, they happen to be fun to shoot... the results look "fine" to me, no complaints under most conditions. I'm sure they are not "perfect", but they beat most of the cameras I've used in recent years, and again, light and easy to carry, so I have them when the opportunity strikes.

I'm not expecting a 1" sensor cam to have "better" image quality than the A77/A65, or a VG series video camera, or... or... but I know the RX100 and now the M2 version do a fine job, and like John says, the 100M2 will be "the right club" at least some of the time, even after there's a RX10 in the bag! Will everyone want or need to have one... prolly not, but that's why there are lots of different cameras, right?

From my view, the RX10 will definitely replace several cameras I've got, and possibly a couple others, but some other cameras (like the RX100M2) will definitely be remaining in the "fleet". As John says, you don't go golfing with one club, or take a tool bag with just a pair of pliers, or go to the racetrack with a minivan...

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Alternatives to the RX10 would be:
- Panasonic G6 + 14-140mm Lens (A little better stills, comparable video quality, same codec, nearly similar in size/form factor, cheaper)
- Panasonic GX7 +14-140mm Lens (Even better stills, better video quality, same codec, more of a cross between the RX10 and RX100 and weighing more or less the same as the RX10, a little more expensive)

Now you could have one camera to make sure you get the shots and the other to make sure that if you have unlimited time and patience the shots you get would more likely be the ones that truly impresses.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

I am a Panasonic guy and a big fan of the G6, but the RX10 vs G6 +14-140 comparison breaks down in low light.

The 14-140 cannot match the light gathering performance of the RX10's constant f2.8 lens.

And neither camera has a built-in ND filter or a headphone jack. The GX7 doesn't even have a mic jack.

Panasonic's only real answer to the RX10 is a GH3 with 12-35 and 35-100 lenses - but that's less than 10x total zoom - and carrying two lenses around is a lot less convenient and a lot more money.

The RX10's strength is clearly not its codec. Its competitive advantages are its lens, its convenience and its price. This will be the sweet spot for a lot of buyers this holiday season.

I'm sticking with Panasonic for now, but if Sony can lift the 30 minute continuous recording limit outside of the EU and fix the codec, I'll get rid of my GH cameras and buy the "RX20" :)

Heck, if they add RAW to the "RX30", I'll sell my BMPCC!

Cheers, and best of the holidays,

Bill

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Sony make a point of having a clean HDMI for external recording which will solve any concerns about the AVCHD codec and allow for long record time too. Still think we will see this sensor in a real camcorder though.

I agree with having different cameras though. For skiing I have my HX30V and GoPro 3 Black Edition. Both go in my ski jacket pockets ( or on my helmet). The rest of the time the HX30V lives in my wife's handbag to take photos of the grand kids. RX10 is still too big for this task. For theatre shoots my NX5U and now FDR-AX1 with NX30U and CX700, several heavy tripods and Manfrotto clamps . Tasks are very different and need different tools. "One size fits all" is not a likely proposition. With modern technology there are a lot of overlaps that did not exist in the past where depending on needs a single camera may fit the job .

Ron Evans

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Don't forget that RX10 has a smaller sensor than M4/3 cameras, so despite the larger aperture they have almost the same light gathering ability. The 2.8 is equivalent to 4 in the M4/3 format.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Only as it regards depth of field otherwise 2.8 is 2.8.
If you light a scene and shoot the GH3 the 5DIII and the RX10, they will all read the same exposure at f/2.8.
The other difference is that the smaller sensor will have more noise.
But as far as equivalent light gathering, 2.8 will expose the same on the RX10 as it will on the 5D.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

^
Yes, but the smaller sensor pixel size will decrease light gathering ability from that constant f2.8 roughly in proportion to sensor size (really in proportion to pixel size given equal sensor technologies, but there is only roughly a full stop difference between backlit and regular sensor technologies). So, a f2.8 lens on the RX10 will roughly be equal to a F4 on the MFT, for producing equivalent exposures under conditions of low light, and only under those conditions if they had equal sensor technologies. However, the Sony sensor is backlit and I am not aware that most MFT sensors are, so the difference in pixel size is negotiated by sensor technology. F2.8 always produces the same illumination, actually T2.8 is always the same, but then the issue is what can the sensor do with that light when conditions are marginal. If there is an excess of light then this constraint does not apply.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Right on! I've been thinking about John McCully's Waiwaka video... Hmm, he might save up for a Red Dragon for his golf bag: that would really hit it for me. Now back to reality...

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Yeah, right! That thing with lenses, battery and so... I would need a real live caddy! Too much hassle, too inconvenient altogether and it doesn’t even do stills. Forget it; I prefer the RX10.

Here’s another half-decent review from Canada. Just look at all that snow, and yes, I do declare I see blown highlights!

Seems to me the reviewers must find at least one problem or they might be perceived as not doing their job, or worse they might be perceived as beholden to the manufacturer. And guess what; that bad old horrible dastardly AVCHD codec is the problem. Wouldn’t you know it!

Sony engineers must be complete idiots, ha ha.

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

That snow looks like it's radioactive, is there someone that owns the camera that is seeing the same that highlights blow out easily?

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

Ha ha, maybe it is radioactive. He did point out that this was a Canadian Defense testing ground and one might come across unexploded ordinance and you just never know what those Canadians might have been up to.

If you want to see well controlled highlights check out Dan Carter on Vimeo and in particular his Arizona Biltmore Resort (Sony DSC-RX10). Note what looks like wide dynamic range. I would say he might have about 14 stops, or more perhaps :-)

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

One has to ask how was it edited and did the NLE used manage Superwhite recorded by all the Sony's AVCHD. If not it will be clipped and loose all the highlights detail. I tend to rework all the output from my cameras using the YUV filter in Edius to bring in range and correct gamma.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera
 

That's an interesting statement Ron, if that is actually the case that could explain this "problem" most users don't seem to be aware about. I"m currently downloading Dan's rx10 video so I can have a better look.