Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Is it me, or does the NX5U seem like it has a lot more difficulty in auto-focusing quickly (and maintaining it), especially when it comes to shooting sports?

This is in comparison to the Sony V1.

Andrew

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

To me my NX5U is a little worse than my FX1 which I rate as poor !!!! My SR11, XR500 and CX700 focus fast and accurate and most of the time maintain focus. The FX1 was never very good in auto focus and the NX5U carries on this tradition !! I always use manual focus for the NX5U and try to manage depth of field to cover the content. I wish it had spot focus like the smaller single chip Sony`s. For my projects I use the NX5U for medium shots with my wife with one of the smaller cameras doing the closeups. With spot focus these are always pin sharp something I find difficult to compete with on the NX5U.

Ron Evans

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

So my thinking is ... how can Sony release a camera that is "this good" when it comes to auto-focus?

Andrew

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Well it is sold as a Pro camera and most Pro cameras don't have autofocus at all. It works, just not as well as the consumer cameras that have image tracking and face tracking etc that work to get a much better image on average when in auto focus. I don't know why Sony don't include these functions either . They are likely in the DSP in the camera !!!! Since the NX5U uses the touch screen LCD I don't know why they wouldn't include the consumer features. I for one would like that especially the spot focus feature.

Ron Evans

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I believe the reason for this is because the sensor of the pro cameras are larger than the tiny sensor of the smaller ones as well as the lens elements of the pro cameras are much more and makes it "slower" to focus. Maybe i am wrong though.

stelios

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

All the Sony's are 1/3". Small ones have a single chip with more sensor sites the NX5U and FX1 have 3 chips. Lens is different though. 37mm and 72mm.

Ron Evans

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Actually, I could handle it if it was a little slower to achieve that focus. It's losing the focus on fast moving objects (such as football players) that is disheartening.

Andrew

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

If you think football players are moving fast try basketball...smaller area, closer to action...or even better, try NASCAR at 180mph. Been there done that. For sports I found AF just simply doesn't cut it no matter what camera it is. Better off zone focusing and using DoF for safety.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Interesting. I'd never heard of the concept of "zone focusing" before but it makes sense to me.

Would it be sufficient to say that within the depth of field there are a range of 'object distances' that will be in focus whilst at the one manual focus setting on the lens?

Andrew

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Yes there will be a certain amount of area that will be in focus both forward and behind your point of focus because of the DoF.

Now having said that, let's look at the downside. There are a lot of mitigating factors when using zone focus at sporting events. First where is the camera placed in relationship to the field of play? Second, how far away is it? Third, how much zoom is needed to frame out the shot you need? Fourth, what's the lighting (consider F/stop and Shutter Speed) Fifth, how much area of coverage do you need? IOW are you going to be on top of the pressbox (say 50 feet off the ground) covering the whole field of play (say 100 yards) from sideline to sideline (say 55 yards) during bright daylight hours and your shooting position on the pressbox is about 100 feet from the field of play? If so give a "yahoo for you" cause you have it made in the shade (relatively speaking). BUT!!!!! Consider the other side. Say the lighting isn't as good or you have to zoom in more to frame the shot or covrer the field or the position of the camera is lower, farther away or closer. remember when up higher the panning isn't as fast, with brighter lighting you can work at a higher value F/stop for added DoF, you zoom in the iris closes (not always what you want but it will help in the DoF department...just hope for good lighting) oh yeah, a major factor, lense length. A 12X (whatever that means) on a 1/3 inch camera is going to be different than a 40X on a 2/3 inch camera. EVERYTHING about it will be different BUT the principle is the same. Find a spot on the field, focus on the spot, check your focus 10 yards in front of and 10 to 15 yards behind that spot, pan left and right to check the focus and if all the conditions are right, you win. If not then keep you hand on the manual focus ring and try to keep up.
This is why sporting events have up to 40 cameras covering the event.
When I did the NASCAR stuff we would have up to 10 robotics on the walls, at least 1 boom, 10 to 15 hard cams and heaven knows how many handhelds and none of them were 1/3 inch cams with 12X lenses. Not saying it can't be done because it can, you just have to work harder.
Good luck

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I shoot my theatre stuff with the NX5U focused on a point about 1/3 from the front of the stage at about the centre of the stage. The NX5U is then used without focusing for the whole show for medium zoom shots to get most of the actors on stage BUT closeups are done by another camera that is focused for every shot a full stage fixed unattended camera is always there to fall back on in the edit. When the action is close to my focus point I can also zoom in for a close up. I alter gain to keep iris above f3.4 if I can so I do not get any ramping from the lens on zooming and to get consistent depth of field. Since I am usually 50 to 100 feet away from stage most things on the stage are within the depth of field for most of the time depending on stage lighting.

Ron Evans

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

It's not just you, it's me too Andrew. The actual finding focus is OKish, but any pans or tilts (with macro focus on or off) means it simply gives up completely, dissolving into a blur and taking time to come back sharp again.

My FX1 and Z1 were never like this. I could work off a tripod and pan from best man at the end of the long table to the bridesmaids at the other knowing the lens would maintain lens to BM distance and refocus when I stopped on the BMs. Not so with the NX5. You've gotta pan stupidly slowly to stop it wandering off into its bleary-eyed zone.

tom.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

It's almost as if the autofocus had a very late night involving lots of alcohol.

Andrew

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Me three on this. It seems to have inherited its disability from its cousin the EX-1. For years I shot with a VX-2000 and don't remember ever having to focus unless I had specific reason to do so. So this is something that Sony has known how to do for more than ten years.
Yes, yes focus is more sensitive in hi-def but really, distance is distance....

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I would have thought that in a megabucks camera (not as much as others, of course) they would put in an autofocus system at least equivalent to one in their other cameras such as the V1. I mean, why would you go second-rate when putting out a new camera model???

Andrew

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Can't help but agree Andrew. Take the NX5's top screen - near useless in daylight, let alone sunlight. Yet the Z1's screen was the envy of the world, and rightly so.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I guess that's what we get for a touch sensitive layer on the display.

Still, best of luck opening it up (or closing it) if you have something mounted on the hot shoe. Hasn't worked out well when mounting a Sony wireless audio receiver on the camera.

Andrew

PS. I wonder if there is any chance of Chris H. being able to get a Sony rep on to the forum?

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Panasonic's touch-sensitive screen on their tiny cheap palmcorder is streets ahead of Sony's NX5 in daylight (as it has to be as the camera has no v'finder) so that's no excuse Sony.

I mount lots of stuff on the (front) cold shoe Andrew, and never have any trouble opening or closing the screen.

tom.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Folks.

I can't say that i have seen what this thread is discussing, i have shot fast moving objects with PAN and the results look good to me .. i always shoot 720.60p on my NTSC model

Assuming their is a problem, which i am yet to experience, could it be addressed by tweaks to the camera firmware or is the autofocus hardwired to circuitry ?

Is there any hope that Sony may release an firmware update to the camera ?

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

The NX5U is a pro cameraeaning it's not meant to be used in auto focus for all shooting. I don't use auto much at all. Also, it's going to be very difficult to keep focus when shooting sports in anything other than 60i.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I haven't had the focusing issue you guys are talking about with my camera. I recently shot an event at a road coarse with auto-focus on and it stayed locked onto the car I wanted.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I keep reading that pros only use auto-focus as a last resort. I've been using a VX-2100 to record figure skating competitions and I cannot imagine trying to use manual focus to follow a speeding skater around the rink.

The VX-2100 has always been fantastic at keeping locked on skaters even when the backgrounds are busy and contrasty. I continue to be on the hunt for a HD replacement that has decent auto-focus.

Yes, I use auto-focus. :-)

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Well, most pros shoot with higher end cameras like Sony's F700/800 or Panasonic's HPX2000/500 that have a real lens and no auto focus. I've shot college football, hockey, basketball, etc on these types of cameras and have never had a problem using manual focus. If you watch the NFL, college football, NASCAR, or even figure skating on NBC, those guys shooting are not using auto focus. Auto focus is for amateurs & prosumers, not professionals. My advice is to learn to shoot with manual focus.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

This used to be true but, increasingly, is no longer so. The "real lenses" on these cams are almost always Canon DigiSuper AFs. The AF is for AutoFocus and it works just fine. Check next time you go to the ballpark. The cams themselves are often either the small Sonys mentioned above or the larger HDC-900 pedestal cams. Look in the camera wells next time your favorite player hits a foul ball.

A real pro uses his gear to get the most good footage he can, and that can include auto functions if he knows how to use them properly. Just because you have a cam with crappy (or no) AF doesn't make you a pro. When you see something go way out of focus before it goes in, that's someone desperately hunting for manual focus. AF never does this. At least not on my cams.

Note that I am not speaking of the NX5 specifically, only the elitist notion that pros don't use AF.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

It's not being elitist. The true skill and art of Videography/photography is being lost to people who just grab a camera and shoot on auto and somehow think that's makes them a professional. With current NLE technology, there is now this mindset of "I'll just fix it in post" because many don't know how to shoot it correctly in the first place. I've worked in local news, in DC, and in production and I've yet to meet a real professional who shoots in "auto". Yes, new technology is a tool that should be used but it SHOULD NOT be substituted for skill. If you're shooting motion in auto and the camera isn't able to keep focus, you should be able to go manual with no problems instead of complaining about a camera that is never meant to be used exclusively in full auto to begin with. That is why the camera had auto focus assist. Turn it on and the camera will keep focus close but you have to manually fine focus the action. This profession is a craft that requires skill and technology is no substitute for that.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Michael, while I don't doubt your experience I have to say that your statement about real pros using certain cameras and not using AF is, well, wrong. I too have shot all of the above including NASCAR using Sony HDC-P1 HD Multi-Purpose Cameras (robotic operation..No AF) and I've shot other sports using everything from BVW100s to PD150s to DXC30s and 50s to....in some cases I have used AF if the camera had it and it was appropriate for the job. Of course it had to work as well.
I just think making a blanket statement as you did is an insult to many of us that have been working pros in the video industry for many years. Just because one uses a certain type of camera doesn't make that person a pro, believe me, I seen people using $60,000 cameras that turn out some pretty mediocre work, yet I also seen people take a $2000 camera using auto focus and produce amazing work.
Just sayin'.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I don't mean to insult anyone even though I realize that I've done just that. I never said using a particular camera makes you a pro. I too have seen some people using $60k cameras who have no business shooting. That is why I said technology is no substitute for skill. I'm not saying that there is never a time for auto focus. I am saying, however, that I don't consider someone a professional if they don't have the skill to shoot in manual when the need arises. You should be able to pick up any pro camera and shoot in full manual mode with no problems if you are a professional. That doesn't mean you can't use auto from time to time. My statements are only my opinion which anyone can freely disagree with.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Also keep in mind that my initial reaction is to the first four posts in this thread in which the camera is being blamed for it's lack of ability in doing something it was never designed for in the first place. These types of cameras are not meant to be used in auto focus when shooting fast action sports and there is complaining that a "professional" camera doesn't have "consumer" features which are designed to make shooting easier for amateurs.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Hi there.

"My name is Andrew, and I like using auto-focus."

Rest of the room: "Hi Andrew."

:-)

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I appreciate all the good input given above.

Perhaps it is the limitations of my prosumer camera but I have just never found the responsiveness of the focus ring to be adaquate for tracking fast moving objects. And when I saw moving objects, I don't necessarily mean objects that are moving parallel to me but those that are either coming directly at me or away from me.

Again, skating and hockey are my main frames of reference. Maintaining sharp focus on a skater as they rapidly approach to within a close distance is nearly impossible for me when using manual AF.

Subject distance has a lot to do with the ability to AF.

Seeing references to NASCAR, it is still hard for me to believe that you can stand along pit road and maintain manual focus on a car as it zooms past only 50-feet away. I have a lot of experience with still photography and auto-focus and while I can easily maintain AF on a race car when it is a couple hundred yards away, I cannot maintain AF on a 100M track sprinter at the finish line when they are 15-feet from me. Subject distance is everything.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

John,
First the cameras aren't along pit road. They are mounted to the outside wall generally 2 along each straightaway, and 1 per corner just to the inside radius or the turn. There are also others, such as on the flagstand or top of the fence just beyond the flagstand. There are all robotically operated from as much as a 1/4 mile away in the broadcast corral. Keeping focus on the cars is actually pretty easy. First keep in mind the cameras and lenses aren't prosumer. The cameras themselves are around 25 to 30 thousand each, the lenses, probably not much less than that and they are anywhere from a 22X to a 40X depending on the track and the position of the camera. For the flagstand and pit out they might be a short lense, maybe 16X since it's a pretty short area to work in.
Find a spot about 1/2 way down the track set focus, of course making sure the backfocus is spot on, usually running a pretty small aperture, f/16 up to f/32 if conditions call for it. Keep in mind this is controlled in the video truck, we as operators have no control over that. In just about every case the depth of feild covers down to the previous turn and back to the next turn. Sometimes though, depending on the track, you will be pulling focus and most of us tried to keep that to when we followed a car thru the turn until the director called the next shot. I liked the motorcyle twist "throttle" type of focus mechanisim some guys preferred the "wheel" type of fucus mechanisim. At first it's daunting even with my experience as both a still photographer doing sports and a videographer doing sports. Trust me there are times you just can't keep up with the focus and zoom at the same time. It gets rather raucous in the trailer with 4 to 6 operators in there running these cameras but you communicate with one another all whille listening to the director "talking in your ear"...That's one reason we would get to the track on Tuesday or Wednesday for a Friday race. Setup and fax everything out, then everytime anything but a golf cart was on the track, even when we weren't on the air, I would practice, practice practice. Making sure my focus was right, practicing zoom and focus thru the turn and holding the shot until called off. It was a fun time and a real pleasure to wrok with some of the guys that had been doing it for lots of years. Learned a lot from that experience. It can be done.Plus there wasn't a camera out there that had any kind of auto focus. Next time NASCAR is running watch the race for a while on TV, you'll see what I mean.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I have been been recording Aussie Rules football matches on and off over the last couple of years with a HV20 and have been looking at upgrading to the NX5 in order to do this in a more serious manner.

Given that the action can quickly move from just 10 feet away to more than 500 feet away, that I use an external monitor and I need to have one hand free, the autofocus is very important for me. Does anyone think that the NX5 would or would not be suitable? Or are there any other cams I should be looking at?

I have not had any issues with the autofocus on my HV20 but I want a camera that has better zoom capability, is not tape based and is more professional in both looks and capability. The ability to record in either mpeg2 SD or AVCHD seems very handy as well, but I do require HD capability.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Hi Graeme,

A mate of mine (with occasional help from myself) shoot AFL up here in Brisbane and the Gold Coast, using the Sony V1s. This is for both local club matches as well as the bigger Queensland matches that are replayed on Foxtel.

The NX5 that I was talking about at the start of this thread is one that he purchased as an additional camera for shooting AFL and the autofocus just isn't good enough to keep up with the fast paced action.

Also, despite the camera having 20x optical zoom, because the sensor block is bigger/wider, the full zoom doesn't go as far in to the action as it needs to be. Certainly not when compared to the V1s being used.

So it's back to the tape based V1s for shooting AFL. If you're still sure that you want an NX5, he may well sell it to you. :-)

Andrew

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Thanks Andrew,

I was hoping you had been shooting AFL, but it's disappointing to hear that about the autofocus. Had you tried turning macro focus off? Other threads had suggested this improved things.

I understood that the zoom wasn't going to be as strong as the 20x may have indicated, but at least it would have been better than the 10x on my HV20 - otherwise The NX5 was looking to be perfect for my needs. A slightly off topic question - is the NX5's mpeg-2 format dvd compliant (ie does it need re-encoding)?

Cheers (and thanks),
Graeme

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

I haven't been shooting AFL with the camera (but love its low light sensitivity!). No idea if it has been tried with the macro off. The camera is being used at an AFL carnival at the moment and I've texted through the tip. I'll update this thread if it turns out that it helps.

I haven't shot to mpeg2 yet with the camera so I can't tell you if it needs transcoding for DVD or not. I've stuck with the AVCHD format as part of my being a bit of a quality freak.

Got a feeling that the 20x zoom on the NX5 will definitely be better than the 10x zoom you have been using. :-)

Andrew

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Not quite sure what you mean here Graham. I'm pretty sure that within the production tolerances the NX5's G lens does indeed have a 20x zoom ratio. The V1 beats it on the telephoto end, but it does this by having a poor wide-angle coverage.

And although I don't shoot sports, I can confirm that the NX5's auto-focus isn't a patch on the Z1's. Odd, that.

tom.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Tom - as you mention, the NX5 starts wider than the V1 (and my HV20). On full zoom the NX5 goes to 590mm, whereas my HV20 goes to 435mm, so that would still an improvement for me.

I was thinking that this camera would be perfect for my needs so I'm pretty disappointed. I don't think that there is currently anything else out there with the same potential - tape-less, 20x zoom, avchd & mpeg-2, manual controls etc.

Re: Keeping focus of fast moving objects
 

Your words neatly sum up why I bought an NX5 Graham. 'nothing else out there with the same potential - tape-less, 20x zoom, avchd & mpeg-2, manual controls etc'. There are compromises we must make in all walks of life, and the NX5 is one of the better ones in my view.