V1 and Canon A1 side by side
 

So I have been able to get my hands on a V1 for a few days. I want to do some meaningful side by side shots with the A1 and post up some split clips, thought it might be useful for some. (maybe done already?)

Anyway I have dled the manual from the link, will get up to speed on where everything is tomorrow. In the meantime, was wondering if some V1 24p shooters could give me some standard settings they have used successfully out of the v1. I am most particularly interested in sharpness levels, gain control settings? A1 has -3 for example which is a good low light option - and colour settings, I am not looking for a way oversaturated image here, something fairly baseline that gives a fairly good understanding of the v1 startpoint that someone may use.

That owners manual link is down - couldnt see one on the minisite either, anyone have a link?

Some full tele shots at max aperture could be interesting. The bigger chips in the A1 come with a lens that's 3/4 of a stop slower, and I was wondering how that compared to the V1's smaller CMOS chips with its f/2.8 lens.

tom.

Speaking of which - is the A1 lens slower at tele because it's wider at the other end, or are those params quite independent from the design viewpoint? Just curious...

Noel, if you need any help with file hosting, just let me know via email.

Our V1 owner's manual link seems to be downloading fine: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82165

Come on V1 users, get those settings in! :)

The designers have decided to limit the maximum aperture to f/3.5 on the A1
so that it can be contained within a 62 mm filter thread, doesn't get too
big and heavy and comes in at the right price. They could have specified an
f/2.8 maximum aperture but my guess is that most people will say it has an
f/1.6 20x zoom. What's the Sony got? Why, an f/1.6 20x zoom.

See? The 3/4 of a stop loss has been disguised. BTW, it has nothing to do
with the fact that it has a wider wide-angle; the main problem the Canon
designers have had to face is that the lens is feeding much bigger 1"/3
chips. I reckon it's a fair trade.

And it's not just slower at full telephoto - it's slower at all focal lengths bar the widest angle of course.

tom.

OK this is going to be a "Canon A1 vs Sony V1" comparison not a "Canon A1 v Sony V1" comparison. The judgements I will leave to others. Of course on my own website Ill do as I see fit. But the side by sides I post here will be just that.

With the number of views it seems theres a fair bit of interest so I will endeavour to get shots up ASAP.

We are going from 4:3 to 16:9 March 26. Our big Ikegami diskcams are already true anamorphic 16:9 - so no problem there.

But our videojournalists - including me - are using DVX100's, so we have to find a replacement soon. Sony just delivered a V1 I've got at home for testing. Only spent 5 minutes with it, but it seemed pretty poor in lowlight. Our tech guys says that the Canon cam has too many small, loose parts for professional (and tearing) use. But we'll see for our selves when we get one in for a run in a weeks time.

I'd love to see comparisons of the two. Bookmarking this thread :)

Thomas, they seems to be right on that - I also think the many switches and sliders on the A1 should be much bigger, and there's a lot of room for it!

The Canon A1 filter thread is 72 mm, not 62.

So here are the side by side settings I will use for both cams. (found these doing my own searching - if something better for v1 let me know).

Please note I will keep shutter speeds and fstop the same on each cam.

Sony V1
GAIN 0 - (LOWEST SETTING)
Colour Level 0 (default)
Colour Phase 0 (default)
Sharpness 4
Skintone DTL OFF (default)
SKINTONE LEVEL 4 (default)
WB SHIFT 0 (default)
KNEE POINT MIDDLE
BLK COMPNSTN COMPRESS
CINEMATONE GAMMA TYPE2
CINEMATONE COLOUR ON


CANON A1
GAIN -3 (LOWEST SETTING)
GAMMA CINE2
KNEE MIDDLE
BLACK PRESS
MASTER PEDESTAL - 5 (COULDNT SEE THIS FUNCTION ON V1 - IF WRONG LET ME KNOW)
SETUP LEVEL 0 (default)
SHARPNESS MINUS 3
H DTL FREQ MIDDLE (default)
DTL HV BAL 0 (default)
CORING O (default)
NR1 0 (default)
NR2 0 (default)
COLOR MAT CINE2
COLOUR GAIN 28 (MIDPOINT - SAME AS V1 AS V1 IS FROM 0 TO 7 I CHOSE 4 WHICH OF COURSE IS SLIGHTLY ABOVE MIDPOINT BEING AT ABOUT 57% OF MAX)
COLOUR PHASE 0 (default)
RED GAIN 0 (default)
GREEN GAIN (default)
BLUE GAIN 0 (default)
RG MATRIX 0 (default)
RB MATRIX 0 (default)
GR MATRIX 0 (default)
GB MATRIX 0 (default)
BR MATRIX 0 (default)
BG MATRIX 0 (default)

SKIN DTL OFF
SKY DETAIL OFF

The reason the A1 has more listed (for those who havent seen either cam) is purely because it has more options to adjust image.

One point on both cams before I head out. The v1 is has a considerably smaller form factor than the A1. I wont comment on which I prefer, as I said I will leave my own opinions for my own website.

Noel, the color level on the V1 at +4 might look a bit cartoonish. You might want to set both cameras at their default color levels. +4 is not the midpoint in the color scale, but halfway to way too much color gain. Zero should be the midpoint. I add maybe +2 color if I want some extra saturation but want to keep it realistic. +4 would be useful if you want to really saturate something like a sunset or colors in a landscape. I think it would make people look weird. Also, cinematone gamma kills about two f-stops of light sensitivity so it would make the V1 look horrible in low light. I guess my vote would be for both cameras to be near default settings with maybe a slight reduction in sharpness. If the cameras, on the same monitor, have different green/magenta and whitebalance, you could adjust them to be as close as possible so coloration won't scare people.

OK so under Prog. Scan do I shoot 24 or 24 A? Manual doesnt tell me what the differences are.

Dead right, Tom Roper, 72 mm on the A1. Brain slip.

24A didn't really make it into the manual. I think it changes the timecode somehow and causes a reset every second or GOP or something like that. Maybe it resets the timecode every pulldown frame? I think Vegas will handle either, but I don't know about other NLEs. I'm planning to shoot 30p, so I'm not looking into 24p very much, sorry.

It depends on your NLE, and/or plans to be compatible with other NLE's. Sony Vegas for example, will correctly read the file in any event. At this time, no other NLE will, so the A mode was created.

There are two modes in the V1.
~The "A" mode freezes the end frame/stop so that every segment begins with a perfect 3:2 cadence when the camcorder is started.
~one mode does not, and shoots "as normal."

Enjoy the cam!

Im editing in FCP and want to mix with A1 footage for the comparison.

Probably too late to matter, but maybe consider upping the sharpness on the Canon a bit? -3 might be a bit softish? Especially since 24F knocks the sharpness down a bit too.

Just getting started. But I think the -3 settiing on the Canon is where is should be. Camera is sharp.

Found the FCP workflow. Rather bothersome, but thats the way it goes.

The biggest issue thus far was quickly getting everything into manual mode. The scene files are easy to work with and adjust, problem I was having was digging through to get manual shutter speed as well as fstop and white balance all at the same time. Got it now.

Noel,
Is it possible to post a link to your website with your opinions on these 2 cameras? I have a friend who wants to know more about the Sony. I own the A1 and would like to hear what you think so far. Thanks!

Shall do once I have finished up. But you have to remember, that I will only post comparisons on this forum for reference. On my website, it will all be MY OPINION.

Noel, I look forward to that comparison. Please post a link to your own website so that we can see your opinion too. Thanks.

i'll second that! i believe there's quite a few people out here waiting for a good, comprehensive side by side assement.

having been given some test footage from the v1 to play with i'm suitably impressed. i had a quick touchy feely of the canon, and it felt like i was holding a brick (i need longer fingers too to reach the rocker....), but since most of my work is off tripod, i'll go with which ever comes out ahead.

anyone any comments regarding fixed lens w/a? which has the wider without adaptor?

leslie

The Canon is wider.

We recently had both cameras side by side as well. Our tests were less precise in terms of image quality and we found that we could live with either. We were more critical of camera performance and ergonomics. We are a newspaper shooting for web content and the AF performance, ergonomics, and durabilty are very important to us. The V1 that we had focused much better and held focus when an object moved through the frame. The Canon A1 was wandering even when the subject was still and was taking too long to get sharp. Our concensus was also that it was also more difficult to tell was was sharp when manually focusing the Canon in the viewfinder and the lcd.

I am curious to see the results of your tests since we weren't as thorough as you are with the settings to obtain the best image quality.

Jeff, what about ergonomics? Is the Canon bulkier and heavier or both feel pretty much the same?

The Canon is about the size of the Z1. The V1 is smaller.....probably about 20%. But we think it still "feels" substantial like a piece of pro gear. We liked the lcd configuration better on the Sony and it seems less likely to break off with how it swivels and the side location. Out of the 4 of us that were reviewing the cameras we all liked the layout of the buttons and custom program buttons. The audio controls are more easily adjusted on the V1 without hand repositioning. One more on audio : I believe the Canon could only be set to line level or mic level, and the Sony could have 1 XLR on line and the other on mic. One other silly thing is that the headphone jack is in the same panel as 4 other ports. Every time the camera is used those ports (including the firewire) are exposed and can be damaged (and that cover never goes back on right !) One bummer about the Sony is an additional charger must be purchsed for $100 to charge batts, unless you use the camera to charge them. Not a big deal, but if we are getting 8-10 cameras thet money could have gotten us an LED light and extra batts ! Pros and cons to everything.
We may have been splitting hairs. But that's the beauty of having a choice.

As somebody who has his right arm handicapped after two neck spine surgeries, I can assure you the V1 feels much lighter and better balanced for hand-held shooting. This is my main (very subjective and personal) reason to still consider it, after a couple of weeks of great experience with the Canon...

But of course I wouldn't like to make decisions based on my personal limitations, so I'm going to very throughly test the "fixed" progressive mode on a brand new V1E before making decision. Also, in order to get a wide angle comparable with the A1 stock lense, one must use a wide angle converter on the V1, which will diminish the difference by making the front heavier.

I'll keep you posted!

I wanted to just throw a quick update - at present I am getting some ugly blockiness in the Sony V1 footage - I am not sure of the cause, specifically I am trying to confirm if its the result of capturing through AIC on FCP. Once I can get some reliable answer to this I will post the shots etc.

I had ugly blockiness and it wasn't anything to do with AIC or FCP. I had plenty of blockiness in my footage generally in darker areas. Under certain conditions the detail gets rubbed away and replaced with dancing block noise.

Post the footage and I tell you if it is the same as in 25P land.

Have a look at this image I posted from a "fixed" V1E.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachmen...3&d=1168774231

Look at the field in the back ground. See how blocky it is. Those block leap around like crazy.

TT

Mine arent nearly as bad, but it is the same pattern. I was shooting in the A 24p mode.

Website?
 

Noel,
What is your website? Like others, I'm sitting on the V1 vs A1 fence and I'm anxious to hear your results.
Thanks,
Chris

I have noticed that the A1 is much more forgiving to quick pans, zooms etc than the V1. Is it because it has larger chips, or is the encoding more efficient?

Hey Noel, did you ever get around doing this? Still curious for your results... :)

Cheers!

When you add a wide angle adapter to the Sony (which to me is a basic necessity for most shooting) it comes out about the same as the Canon A1.

V1U 30P vs A1 30F
 

I'm really interested in knowing how the two cameras compare on the 30 and 24 "progressive" modes. The 3 rings on the A1 seem really attractive, as does the 72mm ring (e.g., if you have a lot of FX1/Z1 lens accessories). However, the quality of the progressive modes is going to be important. Also, how well does the iris dial work on the V1U? If the dial works well enough, then the iris ring on the A1 becomes less important. I guess I'm a little spoiled by the more-or-less smooth iris transition on the FX1.

Is the general consensus that the audio controls/phantom power, etc., are more capable on the V1U than on the A1?

Thanks,
Matt

Adam Wilt's review of the A1 indicates that the A1 has the same barrel distortion at full wide that the Z1U/FX1 has. How about the V1U? One article I read (in VideoMaker, I think) didn't mention anything about barrel distortion on the FX7.

Thanks,
Matt

If you read a camera review that didn't talk much about the damn lens on the thing, my guess is that you can discount practically everything else you read there.

The FX1 has quite noticeable barrel distortion at the wide-angle end - but then few cameras with zooms longer than about 6x avoid this designer trade-off. The V1 has less wide-angle to start with, so may suffer less from this affliction, but once fitted with Sony's wide-converter (as all the V1s were on the Sony stand at London's Video Forum) back comes the dreaded curvy walls, doors and telegraph poles.

If you go here:

http://www.fortvir.net/gallery/v/tom...+_001.jpg.html

you can see an easy way to check your zoom's barrel distortion. The next frame along shows the results of my Z1.

tom.