Thoughts on 2/3" lens I am looking at
 

I am looking at two lens for my PMW-350.

Angenieux Wide Angle Zoom Eng 12x5.3 AIF HR

Canon HJ22e x 7.6B IRSE

Would be interested to hear experiences people have with either?

The Canon is as you would expect for long work and fits the Canon Optical Stabilizer which is important to me.

The Angenieux I don't know much about be seems like a nice wide lens.

Both would be purchased used.

Paul,

I'd have no problem buying any Fujinon or Canon lens based on specifications alone. But
I'd be wary of the Angenieux unless you actually have the chance to test drive it yourself before buying. I've only used a couple of Angenieux lenes and they were both soft with sloppy focusing. The last one was a top-of-the-line WA that Foxwoods owns. Maybe I'm wrong to damn the whole product line based on only two experiences, but I'd never buy one of their lenses sight unseen. Especially a used one.

Thanks Doug,

I would not buy with out testing first. Go to know you think the Angenieux is soft.

Agree the Canon HJ and Fujinon ZA and HA are all high on my list just tough to find one close enough to try for a decent price.

Off to Beavertail now with the new rig.

Angenieux make some great lenses but they don't seem to have the consistency of the Japanese lenses. Don't dismiss it, but do try it out. The good ones can be real stunners, but finding a good one isn't easy.

Paul, don't forget that with the crop-factor of 2/3 lenses, the Angénieux is not all that wide; it's closer to a 'normal' lens as far as field of view is concerned.

Thanks Luc I think it would be close to a 22 or 23 mm in 35mm terms so you are right not very wide. If I find one wider I would check it out but this one is off my list since it is in LA.

Besides the long lens is more important to me so it will be first.

Paul's looking to put the lens on the 350 which is 2/3" so no crop factor there.
Paul, check some tests I did on 2/3" lenses, tested a lot of the ZAs etc.
One of the best compromises between performance and cost I found was the Canon HJ17x7.6. It was equal to the Fuji HA22x7.8 I use as my reference (as it's very good) but a lot cheaper.
Other reason to avoid Angenieux is resale, they're just not as in demand as other makes, and even Fujinon are less saleable than the Canon HJs.
Steve

Thanks Steve,

I have read your info and that always leads me to the ZA, HA, HJ series. The HJ17x7.6 is nice but I need as long as possible so I am looking at 22x and 23x with 2x extenders. I know the 2x is not the best but the extra length at times is worth it.

There is a company in HK that has new HJ at a good price but it is too scary for me to buy with out trying. So I am on the hunt. New is outside my price range.

The Angenieux are very low priced used.

The 2x extenders on these lenses actually tend to be pretty good, as long as they are stopped down a bit. Anything wider than f4.5 and they are virtually unuseable, but 5.6 and below they are not much to worry about on the whole.
Steve

Good advice Steve to know I should not be more open then f4.5. The EX350 is pretty sensitive so that should not be a problem in day light which is when I would use the 2x.

Today starting to look at the 18x in Fujinon to see if I can save some money since the 18x7.6 accepts the optical Stabilizer. Now checking on the Canon 18x. With both I loose the focal length but get into the lens sooner due to cost and then have funds for the OS.

I bought the Fujinon HA18x7.6 for my Varicam. It's nice. Very compact, optically about the same as the HA22 (just a shade less sharp and a tiny bit more CA). A lot cheaper though. My reasoning was that for my purposes neither the HA18 nor HA22 was a long lens, I need at least 600mm so it was just a standard for me and the extra few mms made no difference.
Steve

Agree Steve the cost difference vs focal length difference pushes me to the 18x.

Now my dream long lens would be one of the 42x with a stabilizer built in. But very expensive and heavy so only go for certain shoots.

What do you use for your long lens? Do you own or rent?

Have you used the TS-P58A stabilizer with your 18x?

Aaaah, total confusion thanks to Sony's very inventive naming of products. And as this post was under the XDCAM-HD (not EX) header, I supposed Paul had the PDW-F350. Of course, as you correctly point out, no crop factor for the 2/3 cam.
EX350 is a much more logical name for this fabulous new piece of equipment. If only the marketing guys at Sony's were as gifted as their R&D wizzards...

Sorry Luc it is a little confusing. The EX forum is great but for 2/3" lens info this is a better location. I think the PMW-350 should be here but then again it is a EX line camera.

Hey Paul, I couldn't agree more. So no reason to be sorry!

Now that we're talking lenses, and as I don't find a separate topic 'glass' or 'lenses, I launch a question here. Does anybody know how adjusting flang back works with a lens with an extender? Adjust with extender 'on' or 'off'? If I adjust it without extender, I never get in right with the extender on...

Luc you might want to start a new thread here with that question. I think you would have better response.

There is a 42x on BB List at the moment.
I rent my long lenses, the HJ18x28 by choice, far away the best long lens in many ways IMHO. Never use a stabiliser, even on the HJ40 that has it built in I only ever use it locked off in high winds.
Steve

I think we all agree, it's beyond stupid!
Steve

Not sure about the scientific answer, but I also do it without extender and have never noticed a problem. You would hope that for the cost of these lenses they'd be lined up correctly with the extender so it'd be OK. Of course the effect is much greater the wider the focal length so logically putting the 2x on would limit problems to that extent.
Steve

Thanks Steve,

The HJ18x28 looks like an amazing lens.

The BB list has some decent pricing but then again there is VAT.

I seem to be narrowing down to the HA18x7.6 but have to make sure it has zoom and focus control handles for the aerial work. That lens takes the TS-P58A stabilizer which is nice. Looking at renting one in two weeks for a test flight.

As for longer lens options they are expensive and I think out of my range to buy at this time. The 18x7.6 with stabilizer could be a great working lens. And if longer is needed rental is a great option. My plan is to buy in mid Feb for two important aerial jobs.

Your advice always puts me on track and I appreciate your help.

The HA18x76 BERD has the focus servo while the BERM does not.
I found that it performed very well with the 2x.
Always worth checking one out though. Best way I reckon is do side by sides with a lens that you know to be acceptable for your uses (ie good enough as nothing is perfect), and if it's in the same ballpark then it's OK.
The prices of the long lenses is insane, I've been close to buying a few times then had a reality check. Unfortunately the HJ18x28 is recent enough and in-demand enough that there is no used market for them.
Best of luck with your decision.
Steve

Thanks Steve I was just about to check on the letters. So BERD is the one I want.

I would check the lens out at Abel Cine Tech prior to purchase against the stock and one I borrow at time plus a few there.

Yea it would be nice to be able to reach in the bag and pull out 500-1000mm but I also have to eat. Will see what is around for long rentals and cost so I can price.

Hey Paul,
I would buy a lens you use most of the time and build in a rental price for a lens on jobs that are special unless you have enough days to pay for a good chunk of it. Similar to how we approach camera purchases.
As for back focusing adjustments definitely without the extender. If you use the extender you may not like the back focus when it is not in use from my experience while I can think of no technical reason for it except you may not be seeing the whole effect of the elements on the wide adjustment as the extender is seeing a narrower angle of view.

Good advice Daniel that is my plan. Not sure if it will be a 18x or 22x depends on the price. And as stated above it has to have the motor for focus and zoom so I can control both off the camera.

Pricing in a rental for the very long work will be a nice option. One of the great reasons to own the PMW-350 is the huge lens selection you have access to with the B4 mount.

Still talking with Abel on the Fujinon HA18x BERD lens with optical stabilizer as my standard setup.

Also looking at this for a wide lens. The deal I am talking about with the buyer is to have Abel test the lens prior to purchase. I am confident Abel will let me know if the lens is up to par.

Question is has anyone used one of these and is it a good choice for a wide 2/3" zoom lens? The only other I have found that is this wide is the Canon or primes.
Angenieux T12x5.3B1 ESM HR Wide Angle Zoom Lens - AMAZING!!!!

Finally after all of my searching the testing of a few lens begins next week.

I will be testing the Canon HJ17x with Canon Optical Stabilizer

and

Fujinon HA 18x with Fujinon Optical Stabilizer.

Also in early April I will be testing this new Stabilized lens from Canon, retail $30K
Canon Europe - Canon HJ15ex8.5B

Well I have a clear winner after a long time spent on this process. But well worth it since I would have spent too much or purchased a lens based on advice only, which is not the way to go. Take the advice choose your options and test each lens the way you shoot.

More details soon but these are the lens I tested and what I purchased.

Tested on PMW-350:
Stock Fujinon Lens
Canon J15x9.4B
Canon HJ17x7.7B
Fujinon HA18x7.6B
Fujinon ZA17x7.6B

The stock lens is worth purchasing to have for a back up. It amazed me the Canon J15x9.5 beat out the HJ17x7.7. The HJ had really bad CA and was very soft. Not impressed at all. With this lens I also tested the Canon IS 20B II and the picture went even softer.

Both the Fujinon are excellent and this has swayed me to Fujinon. The HA and ZA were very and I mean very hard to tell the difference. I purchased the ZA, since for the extra $5K I could not see the difference. This also leaves more for the Fujinon TS-P58A, which give excellent results.

Can you do a more controlled structured test? Yes! But for me it was shooting all kinds of charts in my studio with proper lighting and in the field in all kinds of weather. Pushing the lens at full wide and full zoom and with 2x on. All of the things I will do on shoots. Then taking the footage back to the same system I will edit on and picking it apart as I do with all my jobs. So could it be more engineered and controlled yes but would that help me decide? NO! I am very happy with my choice and it just goes to show you need to test the lens for your shooting. Rent, spend the time and shoot since we all have different needs.

Thanks to everyone who helped.

Lens is working out well. Here is a still taken from my GoPro POV suction cupped on the inside of the windshield last Friday. The GoPro bounces all over the place and as you can see does not handle the highlights well but gives you an idea of my setup and shows the ZA with focus control.

Second shot better on the highlights but the focus is not sharp, but again just to show the set up.

Hi Paul,

Is the lens an ALAC/ALAC compatible lens?
If not, how is chromatic aberration with the 350/ZA combo?

Cheers

Yes David the lens is an ALAC lens. From what I have seen so far I have not noticed the CA. Tomorrow I look over the footage from the flight. But my first views have shown excellent results with sharpness and CA.

Cheers Paul. Wishing you the very best with your recorded footage.

Thanks David,

Starting to look now and there are some great clips.

Still amazed that with a B+W 0.6ND and the camera on ND4 that a couple of clips blew out. Not bad just 3 of 130 clips but still the 350 is so sensitive that I need to buy a 1.2ND plus use the 4ND's in the camera in the future. The EX1 with its 0.6 ND and the 2ND in the camera would not have blown out. Shows how much more sensitive the 350 is to me right there.

Hey Paul,
If a camera is too sensitive in a pinch I have been known to throw the extender in if the lens has one and if the shot can handle it. Also makes me wonder if Sony should change the ND ratios in the camera.

Hi Daniel,

Thought of that but when we are flying I can not use the 2x. I did zoom to 70% a couple of times when the producer pushed me and we were at 70 feet off the hill. But 2x would not let us go wide enough and work in the helicopter. Agree a good options when on the ground and tripod.

Did some searching this morning and disappointed B+W only has ND MRC slim screw on filters in 0.3 and 0.6. What would people recommend for a 0.9 or 1.2 range? I will not use Tiffen. Can not use a Matte Box in the helicopter too much windage.

Will post a couple of frame grabs from the shoot later today.

Is the histogram turned on? Or the brightness indicator? 100% Zebras? Unless the highlights are truly saturated at 100-108% IRE, it's not usually clipped whites but rolled off gamma that causes the detail within the highlights to fade out. The adjustable knee setting should help.

One operational detail of Hypergamma could be that it never makes you aware of highlight levels that are fast approaching the 108% mark because it's rolling off the gamma (and thus the highlight detail) before it ever gets to that point. The second issue is that the dynamic range of hypergamma is less, 460% vs 600%.

Good points Tom,

Also I had HG 2 at 100% on as requested by the producer.

Yes I always run with histogram on and Zebra at 92%. The histogram while shooting and in post shows blow out shots.

The shots were looking down on snow with sun right above and zoomed in about 40% on my 17x. Skiers were about 1-2% of the frame the rest snow. We were 80-150 above them. I have looked at those few clips and they are lost. Not too big a problem since we were smart and did more then one take of everything. We were all aware they were blow out at the time of shooting. The monitor going through my video out "Y" was up front and it went white.

Would be great if they could be saved but my efforts have failed.

Paul,

I know this might be asking you a little early, but in your short experience to date with the new ZA lens, does it make a reasonable difference to the pictures compared with the stock kit lens?

The ZA is quite a premium to the stock lens, even with the ZA's operational advantages.

What are your thoughts please?

Cheers

David I would say it has been worth every penny I spent on the ZA 17x7.6BERM-M58H. You must buy –M58H to have ALAC!

Some of my early thoughts:
The lens is sharper then the stock lens and has less CA then the stock lens, even though the stock lens is pretty good with CA.

Zoom is a lot smoother at all speeds. And there are fingertip controls for zoom speed.
I still used my EX1 Libec ZC-9EX zoom control.
All I had to do is buy a Fujinon 8-12 pin wire adapter.
You have zoom limit control, which I use in the helicopter. This is also fingertip control.

The manual focus control is great and very smooth. The cable is stiff but has enough bend for my tripod and gyro mount.
A very big point focus either with hand on the lens or on the control is easier to nail then the stock lens. Not sure why but it is.

The 2x extender is great with a lot of my shooting, except from the machine.

And it fits the Fujinon Optical Stabilizer.

Those are my positive thoughts with the first 6 days of use. There are a lot more controls the lens has that I have not used but will next week on a studio shoot. Macro on the back focus ring is a very nice option. Other options are in the switch panel up front on the handle that I will experiment once I have time.

Negative points at this time? NO

If you have specific question let me know happy to help.

Paul, talking of the chromatic aberration correction thing, have you tried it with and without it turned on?
I tried the HA18 on the Varicam with CAC on and off and could see hardly any difference. It seemed to me, as others as said before, that on very cheap lenses the CAC makes a big difference, but better lenses tend to do it properly (ie optically) and so the electronic correction makes little difference.
Just be worth looking into this in case people are tempted to spend more than they need on a CAC lens if it'll not be much help.
Steve