Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Can someone place a link to the metabones adapter details? - I might just trade in my 5D3 as the A7S has better focus aids - the one thing that stops my using my 5D3 more!

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Here it is Peter

Metabones®

I've pre-ordered the A7S this morning!

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Thanks Clive - I already have the metabones EF - NEX Speedbooster so I'm guessing this will also work?

Am I correct in thinking that you have to use the metabones with the A7S in APS-C mode? If so pretty much reducing it to a similar performance to my EA50 :/

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I know that this Metabones adaptor is 'smart' as in, it can control the lens aperture via the camera controls. But are other aspects lost if you opt for a 'dumb' adaptor? Like Focus peaking?

I'm considering the Holy Manta adaptor and built in variable ND. Of course EF-S lenses can no longer be an option - but I could switch to Rokinon cines.

The Holy Manta looks pretty nifty, and nice to have one ND regardless of how many different lenses and filter threads you want to put on.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I have been considering that holy manta as well but like you said you need to use full manual lenses on it which would mean investing in yet another set of lenses, currently I just ramp the shutter way high if I shoot in bright sunlight with my 12-35mm lens, only if I use my 25mm f1.4 or 75mm f1.8 I will add a nd filter.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

We have both in our rentals department right now... no NEW inventory at this time... anyone in Austin want to come in and complete a somewhat scientific test for DVinfo?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Clive, just wondering where you pre-ordered the A7s from and if they gave you a date? I've been considering it for a good while now.

Thanks, M.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Hey Michael! Didn't know you posted on here!

I ordered from CVP.com. They emailed me post order saying

"...currently not in stock. We will now contact our supplier and find to the delivery lead time and we will email you with the details as soon as we have received a response."

Which I reckon is simply a generic response for out of stock items. Who knows if they will ever give me an expected time frame.

What I do know is that reports suggest that shipping in the US has begun, and over week earlier than was intended. Hopefully it comes earlier in UK too!

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

OK, so I just emailed CVP to cancel my pre-order. Why? Digitalrev have just begun selling the A7S for immediate shipping at £1750!!!

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Is that not excluding taxes, customduties etc...? You are cheaper off ordering from the Netherlands, it's still on pre-order there as well but unless you need the camera yesterday some weeks waiting won't put you out of business. :)

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Clive; having had the possibility to shoot with a gh4 last wedding one thing that crossed my mind when using this camera is how well it would match up with my other camera as I consider that an important aspect. If I combine gh4 and gh3 footage I need to sharpen up the gh3 footage in post, in that case it can be matched though you still do see a small difference, but not in a way that I can't use both together.

I believe you have a 6d? I have seen some more a7s footage and in 1080p it's a pretty sharp camera, have you considered the problems you might get matching it with your 6d or any other camera you have? .

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Clive did you receive your A7s? I'm still thinking that this might be a better alternative than using my 5D for ease of focussing but I have a big investment in Canon glass so need to know of any pitfalls in using EF lenses with this camera.

Cheers

Pete

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I'd also like to hear about this too. I'm on the fence between the GH4 and A7s for 4K work I have coming up. I'm leaning towards the GH4 as a body simply because of in camera 4K recording rather than needing the external recorder for the Sony. OTOH I'm not ready to invest in lots of M43 glass and have lots of Canon glass for the C100 I'd love to be able to use, including the Samyang manual lenses.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

One thing to consider is price, as I understand a Atomos Shogun 4K will be around 2k which brings the camera and 4K recorder to a whopping 4,5k excl lenses.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

That's a good point well made Noa, though I'm planning on buying a Shogun at some point anyway for general monitoring and capture of HD to ProRes from the C100.

The shogun screen is so much nicer than the Ninja I have now and also provides waveforms and vector scopes still not available in most cameras. This helps big time for exposure and white balance on set - when you have time to do it that is - though it's unlikely to be most people's idea of a run & gun wedding camera / combo.

Actually, I'm holding off until Canon announces the 7D2 which I'm hoping will also have native 1:1 4K, internal 4K recording and 4K output via HDMI. We'll see! They have the 1Dc to protect.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

They won't do this. The 7D Mark II will have the same features as the 5D Mark III in APS-C form with Dual Pixel Auto Focus.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I'll be surprised if the 5d mark IV doesn't have 4k; like the GH4 its got the right number for it and it makes sense to introduce this feature first for that level of camera rather than the one below it. Probably got a bit of a wait mind you.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Well, I'm guessing that we'll be staying with what we have for a bit, then, while we wait for something like the A7s, with built-in 4K recording, and a follow-focus, and my own unicorn, please, too.

Seriously, I don't want to spend $4500 per camera for the A7s' 4K (camera+Shogun), which I would have considered over the GH4 because of its' low-light ability.

Maybe now I'll wait and see what Sony does with its new curved sensor they patented.

Or if Canon does anything really useful with its announcement.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

if only canon would take a tip from sony and make all their new cameras with the EOS-M mount.....

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Yeah, I know, but we can hope, and it's not that long to wait until september so probably worth holding off to see what else emerges around photokina. 4K is where things are headed and there have been a few times this year I could have used it to great effect. And is it so wrong to want something with a global shutter ? Arrgghh!!! (no I don't want the Black Magic 4K)

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

The Atomos Shogun looks incredible Dave, couldn't fault you for going the A7S route either with the low light performance that camera provides. Have you considered a Metabones speedbooster to use your Canon lenses with the Micro 4/3 mount though? I've seen Philip Bloom using them to great effect:

Metabones®

Might be a little pricey, but it would enable you (as far as I understand) to use your Canon lenses with your GH4! Of course you'd need to consider the crop factor and how that would affect the focal length of your lenses.

I just received the GH4 earlier this month and it's a stunning camera... I think for the price, it's an easy buy in comparison to the A7S... unless you're able to afford both easily and low light performance is important (as it is in the wedding world). It's easy for me to jump to the GH4 as I'm heavily invested with Micro 4/3 glass, but even without that investment, it would be a close call.

Whichever you choose, I'm sure that you'll love it! I would really love the low light performance of the A7S though. It would be a massive factor for me if I was able to choose either camera with no consequences.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Fortunately, outside of weddings low light is not quite so important. I'm often able to setup and use lighting when ever needed for the corporate and charity shoots I do.

As far as I can see, the GH4 doesn't suffer the same moiré & aliasing issues the A7s has, which is hugely important to me. I understand it's a 1:1 4K (more cropped too), so pixel binning is not longer an issue.

Can you confirm this with the GH4?

Also, how far are you willing to push the GH4 in low light before it gets too much (I realise this is subjective), especially when downscaling to 1080p for final output (which should help noise anyway).

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Good point, Dave, though to take it one step further.... even just having the GH4 do *better* than, say, the Canon 5d Mark iii, or at least as good, would be pretty nice. I guess we're just unfairly comparing everything to that A7s now, but in reality, just having a pretty clean image at ISO 6400 allows even f/2.8 in most situations, nevermind faster lenses.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

When you downscale 4K from the gh4 on a 1080p timeline 6400 iso looks clean to my eye on a big screen, I constantly shoot with f1.4, f1.8 and f2.0 lenses wide open with a manageable dof to get your focus right. Since I can shoot brighter then what I can see with my own eyes that is all I need to shoot candlelit dinner parties as I want to show it like everyone saw it that moment. The GH4 is just fine to shoot at dark receptions, you only won't turn night into day like the a7s can but why would you do that anyway?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I think a nice thing with having super high iso is you then have control over depth of field so you're not always having to use 1.4 aperture - it gives you more choices

Also the A7s exhibits no moire or aliaising in full frame mode, only aps-c

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

That's the beauty of M4/3, you don't need to do that to get a manageable dof and still shoot wide open with fast lenses, otoh, you can't ofcourse get the super shallow dof full frame can give you.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

yes but the a7s gives you more choices - and you can stop down to use lenses at their sharpest.
I've been a m43 user for many years and low light was always a struggle - the a7s has given me more freedom - i no longer worry about the iso and instead use whichever aperture the shot requires

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

In any case, I think the gh4 should not be compared to the A7s but rather to the 5DIII (and it's raw shooting capability) since both are in the same pricecategory and have a full frame sensor and more likely it's successor, the 5D4 which very likely will shoot 4k as well. The gh4 has a much smaller sensor and is about 3000 dollar cheaper then the A7s with a 4K recorder if you want to shoot 4K.

I think If I had to choose between a A7s with a shogun 4K recorder which together should be around 4,5k or a c100 which is about the same price I even would consider the c100 as it's a more complete camera and still has a very robust image.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

yes they each have their own strengths and weaknesses, was merely responding to where the thread was at.....
| wouldn't have only a dslr or mirrorless as my main camera anyway - I have the c100, and the gh3 and now Sony a7s are nice b cams that i also use for stills and for fun away from work

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Can anyone sum up the difference between the A7/A7R/A7S?

As far as I can see the A7s has the lowest resolution sensor making it more sensitive in low light (a good thing) but lacks the hybrid phase/contrast detection of the A7 (a bad thing)

I'm seriously considering the A7 as a replacement for my 5D and with the metabones smart adapter can keep using my Canon glass but it's expensive so I don't want to make a mistake here :/

Pete

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Information about 4K with the GH4 from B&H:

Professional 4K Video Recording
The DMC-GH4 brings the GH-line into the 4K age by offering both 16:9 UHD 4K 3840x2160 video at 23.98p, 24p or 29.97p, and 17:9 DCI (Digital Cinema Initiatives) 4K 4096x2160 videos at 24p. 4K resolutions can be recorded as MOV or MP4 files in high bitrate 100 Mbps IPB codec. When recording at 100 Mbps, you will need an SDHC/SDXC memory card capable of handling the transfer speed.

Please note: For better quality, 4K recording modes use a 1:1 pixel map of the sensor. This yields a slight crop of the sensor, resulting in approximately a full-frame crop factor of approximately 2.3x when shooting DCI 4K resolution.

It's true that many professional testings show that when shooting in 4K, moiré & aliasing are unnoticeable. However, in 1080p, it is still a 'problem'. Watching Vimeo clips, such as these will help you to understand more about the 4K capabilities, as well as checking out Philip Bloom's review (NOW WITH VIDEO REVIEW! The no longer evolving GH4 review! | Philip Bloom)

Caleb Pike's Review: (Moire test at 19:18)
Philip Bloom's Review: Joe Simon's Budapest video (shot with the GH4):
Joe Simon's synopsis:
Pros –
- Beautiful 4K image, rivals the look of Canon C100, 1DC, Black Magic 4K
- Great resolution, sharpness and image texture
- Small and light
- Great DR
- Lots of fine tuning profile adjustments
- 100/200 mbit codec
- Did not have banding issues with blue skies or gradients
- No aliasing or moiré in 4k
- AF function is quick, has face detection
- Built in timelapse function
- HDR function that combines photos

Cons -
- 1080 is soft and resolves little detail
- 96fps is soft, but works well in MED/CU scenes
- Micro 4/3 sensor, hard to get shallow DOF, extreme wide lenses, bad in low light
- Low light is terrible, anything over 1600 iso is unusable, too noisy and blocky
- LCD screen isn’t too sharp, hard to manual focus

---

Ultimately, this is where I think Joe has forgotten the cost of the GH4, because:

- 1080 is equal to the GH4, but with better low light - personally love the image the GH3 provides.
- 96fps is awesome and Philip Bloom's duck video is amazing ( )
- Micro 4/3 sensor is great for getting more depth of field and there are fast lenses to get shallow enough.
- Low light is an improvement (especially in 4K mode when downsizing to 1080p) over the GH3. I'd personally shoot 3200 in 1080p and would be tempted to push 6400 when shooting 4K.
- LCD screen is double the resolution of the GH3s - looks great - and manual focus has hugely improved over the GH3 with the help of peaking.

So, it's completely up to the person with the camera. Hope this helps.

Hmmm Pete, I think the differences have been summed up well here: sony a7s review // sony a7s vs a7r - Washington DC Wedding Photographer Sam Hurd (there's a table a short way down the page between the three different bodies). Maybe others will be able to provide you with more information though!

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Ah common, what a load of crap :) Probably my expectations are a lot lower then Joe when it comes to imagequality but I have been shooting several times at 6400 iso the last 2 weddings and with a f2.0 lens the image is brighter then what I can see with my own eyes, sure there is noise but the noise gets much smaller when you downscale from 4K to 1080p and then you hardly notice it, side by side with my gh3 the difference is noticeable eventhough both camera have about the same sensitivity.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Haha I thought the same when I read it... I guess he's highly critical and this is his first M4/3 camera... if it is, then it's understandable that he might have unrealistic expectations, but if he's owned or used one before, then it's a bit too critical in my opinion, especially considering his pros for what is in effect, a camera shooting way above its price point.

I agree, although I'll admit to only having seen footage online, as I've been far too busy to really get out and shoot. However, I really messed up the pre-wedding video I made for my first wedding video - the father of the groom made a speech and I:

- had the wrong white balance
- had the wrong exposure
- changed the exposure midway through the speech

After colour correction and outputting to DVD, I realised that although the image wasn't perfect, it was far from awful and rendered well on a HDTV... sometimes, our expectations are unforgiving and the reality isn't as bad as we first think.

Can't wait to take my camera out at the weekend!!! So far, I've only shot inside my home.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Here is a quick and dirty comparison I made between the gh3 and 4 with a f2.0 lens at 6400 iso at the last venue I was with the camera pointed to a part where there was no light, only candle's on the table, look at the pink wall in the back to see the difference. (I blurred all faces as I don't have permission to place this online)
The noise levels are comparable between the gh3 and 4 but when you downscale from 4K to 1080p the noise becomes very fine grain, with the gh3 you can see the noise dancing around on the walls, with the gh4 you don't. The downscaling makes the image appear cleaner. the part of the image I show is a bit soft because the focus was on a person in front outside the frame, but it does show the difference, next wedding I"ll try to do a better test.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

There's a noticeable difference between the two... either way, if wedding videos sold ten years ago, the low light performance of the GH4 is easily going to produce footage that sells well today.

I agree with your earlier comment of shooting 'how it is' and keeping the blacks black etc.

That said, I'd obviously jump at the opportunity to own an A7S as well, but I can't see myself opting for the A7S or its successor over the GH line because I'm well-invested in the M4/3 lens line up.

By the way, responded to your email and thanks for the reply!

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Interesting dynamic range test between Arri Amera, A7s, gh4, 5dmk3 & C300

Dynamic Range – Sony A7S vs. the others « cinema5D

A7s has 14.1 stops - close to the Arri 14.5 which is amazing for a camera at this price

The gh4 comes out lowest at 10.9 although from seeing some files I thought it looked a lot closer to my c100 (c300 came out at 11.4)

Obviously dynamic range isnt the be all & end all but the A7s is definitely showing some serious high end qualities

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Game of Thrones isn't shot in 4K. Why are we so concerned with 4K for our weddings?

I know why: consumerism is huge in this industry. Wedding videographers are some of these company's best customers, so the need to make us feel that our current gear is inferior is a tactic. But in all honesty, our work is seen on VIMEO in 720p, usually on a laptop inside of an embed (not full screen). Why on earth is 4K so necessary at this point?

I'm fine with my C100s for now. Lol. Maybe in 10 years when the majority of home televisions and computer monitors are 4K I'll start worrying about that.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Hi peter, sorry - i was on holiday - I've got some reading to do!

But I'll start by addressing your point! My A7S came within three days, from HONG KONG! I was shocked!

It is the universal 'world camera' version.

I love it.

I'm not sure I will use SLog though - not for weddings. the 3200 base ISO is just too tricky to have to deal with on the fly.

The metabones adaptor is fine in areas apart from autofocus in picture taking.

It seems to hunt like bad video cameras would. Over reaching, under reach, over reaching again and EVENTUALLY finding focus. But I'm not going to be taking stills with it.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Not for the output yet but it does have one big advantage and that is the fact you can zoom in considerably and reframe without any visual quality loss and 4K downscaled to 1080p holds much more detail then any 1080p camera can deliver. It's also looks cleaner at high iso as the noise gets smaller as well when you downscale. Currently the biggest advantages are when you edit it on a 1080p timeline. The crop factor alone was for me as a solo shooter enough reason to invest in it now. Have you even looked at some ax100 videos, either on vimeo or youtube in 1080p? I at least have not seen any 1080p camera yet that can output that amount of fine detail.

For me it makes a difference shooting in 4K and editing on a 1080p timeline, I can correct all framing mistakes made on my unmanned camera, I can choose a wideangle or medium closeup and make it look like I used 2 camera's. It gives me extra possibilities which I did not have before.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

There are two kinds of videographers...

Those who have shot 4K themselves, and won't turn back...

And those who are trying to convince themselves they should not touch a 4K camera, even though prices are now becoming reasonable.

Really the "jump" to 4K was far less expensive and mostly painless compared to SD to HD. The image quality jump is still significant, and the advantages are there. Calling it "marketing hype" or whatever won't change what is happening. It IS "bleeding edge", so there are "good" reasons to wait, but also many good reasons to be on top of the coming wave, while producing better HD in the process!