New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Sony's answer to the GH4?

(SR5) Sony A7s will shoot 4k video! Live announcement at 2pm Las Vegas time on Sunday!

http://blog.sony.com/press/28061/

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

IMO this competition should show us some flavor of new 4k pro cams that will be announced.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Looks like there will be some fantastic 4K cameras in the horizon then.

I think it would be best to wait atleast 2 years before any upgrade (if it's even needed for the work you do).

The hobbyist rather than the professional inside me just wants one for fun.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

With the little bit of info that we have on this A7s, can anyone speculate on how he crop factor will work?

It looks like a 16x9 full sensor width crop will deliver the 8+ megapixels needed for 4K. (nice!)

But what about a 16x9 center crop for APS-C? It seems there wont be enough for any kind of real 4K image. (about 7 MP?)

Why not run a 16MP sensor so that FF and APSC could both get 4K?

Maybe I'm totally wrong on this?

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

It's hard to believe that Sony would design the camera to only have 4K capability with only FF. That would be a huge blunder. I'm betting that's not the case.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Unfortunately, that's sort of the nature of "FF", you can in theory crop it in for a lens designed for APS-C, but you get a far smaller usable image area... the APS-C lenses simply don't create an "image circle" large enough to cover the whole sensor.

There are downsides to going FF... I've looked at it, tried to figure out the potential costs, and it's almost like building a new system from SCRATCH.... GRRRR.... EVERYTHING has to be "bigger" to work with the bigger sensor.

Sony does seem to be trying to make a big push into the FF/"pro" imaging market, with commensurate pricing.

Oddly, for me at least, I'm far more enamored of the little 1" sensor series of the RX/AX... good overall image quality, enough DoF to "pop", but not so big that the rest of the camera becomes bulky/heavy... and expensive.

For my use, an RX100M2 is the handy "pocket" cam, the RX10 is a solid "go to" for pretty much everything, and eventually the AX100 for video... makes a nice "system", and when the RX's add 4K, which they no doubt will by next year, I can upgrade! Still less $$ than one Zeiss FF lens, I reckon!

I still have Alpha/A mount APS-C gear, and maybe there will be a new 4K body soon for that, but I suspect the old Minolta lenses won't resolve 4K terribly well - they'll probably look all "Cinematic" and "filmic"... <wink>

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Dave, I agree. I've looked at those FF lenses and not only are they expensive, but they don't have the versatility of a lens like the 14-140 Lumix. You'd need several pricey FF lens to match the focal lengths provided by one good zoom.

I'm sure that won't deter the target audience though. Different crowd with different needs.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

While the "look" from a larger sensor is certainly nice, everything else is also larger... body, lenses, MSRP...

It's easy to say you get "better" results, but to me, I have to ask "how much better" really, and at what cost - the cost/performance ratio is steep... not sure one really benefits THAT much! $500 premium to get 4k in the AX100 vs. the CX900 makes "sense" when you look at the output... dropping a couple "extra" grand on lenses and a body... to build a "system"... it better be pretty eye-popping!

I have a relative that's shooting some incredible shots with her dang cell phone... it's not the device, it's the operator. Sure, they'd be that much more eye-popping with a "real" camera, but it's back to that thing of "the camera you have with you..."

I'm not even dragging out the Alpha unless I'm being paid to look impressive, the RX10 shoots pictures and video that are stunning enough! Yeah, even if the 4K AX100 makes it look a little "soft"! I've seen some comparisons where the RX10 makes the already released A7/A7r look "soft" too, so who knows how the new "s" model will be?!

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

The full frame A7 looks smaller than the MFT GH4 and legacy full frame lenses along with current fast F1.4 Samyang primes from 24mm to 85mm should be ok with 4K since it's still only 8mp.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Wouldn't it have been more beneficial for Sony to have built a 14-16 megapixel sensor?

This way, they would have had plenty of oversampling in FF mode for de-Bayer. And, if running under 16x9 APS-C center crop mode, there would have been enough to give at least an 8 million pixel "before" de-Bayer.

I have always heard of the single sensor Bayer pattern 20% oversample rule. If your target resolution is "X" than sample 20% over "X" and then after you de-Bayer you image, you will be close to your target.

I dont know,...if Sony made this a full frame lens camera only, that would be a big screw up in my opinion.

I need to return my AX100 by next Wednesday. (the day I get home from NAB.. I'm cutting this REALLY close)

I love the clean HDMI, I love a FF sensor like that, I''m OK with the form factor and 29 minute limit too.

I'm NOT OK with FF lenses only! I have 8 APS-C and 2 FF lenses. Uggggg!

CT

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

I have a complete Rokinon e-mount full frame cine lens set, you can get them for around $1600 or so for 4 lenses. They are full manual, but with full frame going with auto focus can be a bit of a crap shoot. I'm a huge fan of the Rokinon's, love them! If you want to go automatic you can get this one:

Amazon.com: Sony SEL2870 FE 28-70mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Interchangeable Lens for Sony Alpha Cameras: SONY: Camera & Photo

It gives you 28 to 70mm range, full frame and auto focus. I tried this on my vg900 but found auto focus just not good enough for video use so I returned it, but your mileage may vary. It's the main reason I'm using the AX100 when I need full auto as it's smaller sensor gives deep dof so the auto focus doesn't have to be super perfect, but I switch to the VG900 and full manual when I need super shallow dof and that nice full frame look.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

The way I see it, then no, 12 Mpixels is a very sensible move.

Firstly, that figure relates to the full sensor, which may be assumed to be 3:2 as it's primarily a stills camera. Hence, the 16:9 crop (cutting off top and bottom) of this will be about 10.1 Mpixels.

That corresponds to around 4240x2386 photosites.

Yes, you could simply deBayer that, then downscale to normal 4k resolutions - but it would take a lot of processing to do it well. That's why nearly all DSLR type video has had to simplify the readout in the past - typically pixel/line skipping in various ways.

Much simpler to just take a 3840x2160 crop and make the processing far easier - and you're starting off with the same basics as such as the C300, F5/55 use. No - not true 4k due to the lack of oversampling, but.... if it's good enough for the F55.....? :-)

And by starting with 12 Mpixels, the linear crop factor is then only about 4240/3840 or about 1.1. Start with 14/16 Mpixels and it would have to be a higher crop factor.

The only disadvantage I see with 12 versus 16 Mpixels is a lower resolution for stills, they've effectively gone for a big positive to the video side at the cost of a relatively small hit to stills performance. The more I think about it, the more it seems like quite a brave thing to do.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Yeah, this makes an APSC option not viable. Unless this FF sensor is actually a 16×9 ratio at 12mp.(nah...thats actually an even crazier idea)

Ill prolly wait for whatever new Sony 4k super 35mm "FS-200" replacement comes out.

So far my AX100 stays..lol

CT

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

I use the 28-70mm FE OSS with the VG900 and AF is slow but usable if the camera movements to and from the subject is slowed down a bit. But I agree the MF Rokinon F1.4 primes from 24mm to 85mm is the way to go along with my 50mm F1.4 Pentax FA for super shallow DOF.

BTW will the 4K A7s cost $2K or $4K ? The 4K AX100 cost $2K.
https://blog.sony.com/nab/

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

4K recording ONLY to an external recorder. Man, did everyone get faked out by that or what?

Panasonic is breathing a sigh of relief.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Cool, I was unlikely to buy camera form factor for video use anyways, but the A7s being 4k external recording only makes it simple for me to totally ignore. Hopefully they have a full frame 4k video camera in the works though, but then again that would cannibalize their FS-700 so who knows.

EDIT: Hmm on second thought after reading it's specs....maybe I could try replacing my VG900 with this one, what to do, what to do....

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

I predict they'll make a new version of the FS100 (the FS100s?) with this same chip. I mean, seriously, SLog2 Gamma, XAVCS at 50 mb/s and 4k out in a tiny mirrorless? Not to mention this will easily dethrone the FS as the "low light king." Very impressed. I may replace my FS100 with one (or two) of these when they come out.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Didn't see anyone post the official video. Click through to YouTube and play it in full 4k glory. (obviously recorded with an external recorder.)

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

WOW!,..I'm sure the codec is there on the motherboard. Sony has just disabled it for now. They are probably testing the market to see if they will enable it later.....WOW!

And now Atomos has the "Shogun" 4K external recorder? Nice move Atomos!!

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

It is difficult but I agree. If you can have the strength to wait things are always better past the transitional stage. But the images are amazing.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Impressive image quality in that official video. No fast action though - it will be interesting to see what the rolling shutter is like.

EDIT: Just watched the Den Lennie Vimeo film (embedded on his blog). Sure, only HD, but some lovely action shots with the A7S in Scotland.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

To me, this camera is both incredible and at the same time the definition of a heartbreaker.

1) I don't know how you can look at the ancient AF technology and think that it's anything but intentionally crippled compared to the AF on Sony's own A6000, Canon 70 D, and the Panasonic GH4. I know for a lot of old schoolers AF is the devil but the devil has his uses. With a full frame camera in shallow focus my operator has a gruesome time trying to follow focus on moving actors while advanced AF systems can do this easily. She has to spend 90% of her creative energy trying to keep the leading man's eyes in focus rather than feeling free to move the camera and find new compositions as the take proceeds. One man crews lose the option of steadicam, or "human crane" shots.

2) 8 bit out? Really? Really?

3) The GH4 can record 200 mbs internally (also only in HD so I imagine also intentionally crippled)--why can't the A7s record some flavor of 4k at least 200 mbs as well? I've had an A99/Ninja 2 combo for approaching 2 years now and as much as I love my Ninja having an external recorder as large and bulky as your camera eliminates the essential light footprint appeal of a small camera. You're more likely to draw notice in public quasi legal situations, the recorder is unweildy and threatens to tip over, the hdmi wire cuts out or goes bad for ever if you breathe on it the wrong way, it's twice as heavy which means twice as many cameragirl rest breaks, it's far more combersome to turn on/off, especially with the Tascam required for external sound, and worst of all because an external recorder is so unweildy you find yourself being less flexible, less willing to go for those cool low, high angles, and/or other awkward angles for fear of messing something up.

I can live with an external recorder one last time, especially since the new Atomos at least doesn't have the Ninja 2's picture quality of a 90 year old cateracts patient. But after all this waiting, and all the potential cost and bulk involved... after all this, the focus issues still won't allow me to move the camera freely? And the output is still too compressed for advanced grading?

Intentionally crippled. Has to be. That's why Sony has gone in twenty years from the most prestigious electronics brand in history to the new Admiral Televisions. They no longer try to make the most jaw droppingly amazing techno miracle--they try to make the next chess move.

So why do I want one so bad?

Oh, that low light...

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Those 12800 iso shots, wtf...I read that the camera can do ISO 200 – 409600 for movies, 409600 iso, that almost sounds like a joke :) Couple that with the new full frame E-mount power zoom 28-135mm, F4 that they have under development and you are ready to go, to bad you need to invest in the external recorder to get 4K as well. The rumor mill says the camerabody would be around the price of the gh4?

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Den at F-Stop Academy says, "We’ve been using it very comfortably at 12,600 ISO and the images are clean and have great resolution." Of course, it's part of a paid endorsement but those guys are pretty good about not gilding the lily.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

It looks like the 5dmark3 has just been dethroned, the A7s is the new low light king. Why does everything has to go so fast right now, it's like every investment you make gets old after a year, I thought that was only for pc development. The photogs are probably having a good laugh at us.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

It's still a commercial and we still need to see some real world examples but I"m baffled about the the high iso performance, if it delivers as promised, you should be able to shoot in pitch black environments with this camera. The dynamic range also seems impressive when using slog2 gamma.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

So the A7s is 8bit, 10bit or 12bit read from the sensor?

HDMI is 8 bit today so a recorder is will only get an 8bit signal.

So this hopfully scans in 12bit, bends the gama to S-Log2 and gives you that flat look over HDMI?

I wonder how that will grade in our NLE.

Is it HDMI 1.4 with 4k 30p only?

Hmmm....

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Unless I'm misunderstanding their promo video, yes. This looks to me to have some of the same pluses and minuses of the AX100...only you need an external recorder for 4K. Of course it offers a bunch of other goodies too.

I think if it was HDMI 2.0 and 4K@60p, they would have touted that as they do with their new UHD displays.

But that external recorder is just a deal breaker for me. Next year this same camera will record 4K internally and do it at 60p, just like the AX200 will. ;)

Yeah, I'll 'struggle' with the AX100 for the next year. :)

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

It has the BionzX just like the AX100 and I am beginning to think that this is the bottleneck in the encoding. The PXW-Z100 and FDR-AX1 do not use this part as they use the encoder chips from the F5 and F55. The Bionz can clearly sample at high frame rates from the sensor but cannot encode XAVC-S at these higher frame rates so cannot record or send out of the HDMI. You gain some consumer features but loose the frame rate.

Now if they had a version at 60P it would be great for my application and external recorder is fine with me.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Yeah I'm pondering one as well but more as a 1080p cam to replace my VG900 which I use in full manual for projects that need very shallow dof, workable in very low light and potentially tight working conditions. To that end it looks like the A7s can replace it. I don't think I'd bother using it for 4k though, just not a fan of external recorders since it's more stuff to manage/fail and I'm an army of one hence I don't need the extra headache. The AX100 has me covered for my 4k needs anyways. Given the speed that 4k gear seems to be evolving at though I figure I can sell the A7s in a year and get it's replacement, so could be fun to play with it for a year.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

If you hate bulk like me but want to be able to grade in post--and most importantly you aren't afflicted with my 4k fetish--then the a7s combined with the new tiny Ninja Blade is a helluva combo.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

I also share your 4k fetish, but fortunately my AX100 scratches that itch as I'm very happy with that video camera. I'll have to see what the options are by the time the A7s comes out, because I can't help but think that it's sensor will also appear in either a VG900 or FS-100 successor. I'm pot committed one way or the other as I just sold my VG900, so I will eventually need a full frame video camera replacement.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

No.

The beauty of this is that it's a full sensor read out. Meaning no pixel/line skipping = no moire.

And less pixels means larger photons and that what gives it the light sensibility and dynamic range.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

It looks like it only does a full sensor readout in 24/30fps movie modes according to one of Sony's promo videos. I guess that means if you use 1080p 60fps then it still does line skipping.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

"It looks like it only does a full sensor readout in 24/30fps movie"

I also spotted that and found it quite odd. Frame rates should be independent of sensor readout. Can somebody with better knowledge of the subject give some insight?

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

There is one more question that needs to be answered:
If it does 4K from direct sensor readout, without line skipping or pixel binding, how it achieves the
HD1080 image?
Does it throw out pixels with skipping/binding?
Reads directly from a smaller part of the sensor which means that the HD1080 is further cropped from FF?
Downrez the 4K image in the processor retaining the same crop factor?
Something else?

So far the only thing that I found is that when shooting 720p it reads an APS-C area of the sensor.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

I remember when the Sony NEX-FS700 came out and Philip Bloom was testing the high frame rate/slow-motion shooting modes. Particularly at the highest two frame rates the image noticeably degraded. So sensor read-out and frame rate should be independent in an ideal theoretical world, but in the real practical world, not so much.

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

I wonder if the sensor finds its way into an a99 sized camera if that would allow it just enough room to dissipate the heat for internal 4k recording--and if it would have the superior AF of the a6000?

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

102000 iso looks about the same as 6400 on my gh3, this is unreal :)

Re: New Sony A7s to shoot 4K video
 

Yes high iso on this camera is crazy. I tested it at the show and iso 12800 had just very little noise 100% usable. At iso 16000 you see the noise more clear so I would not go higher than this.

BTW, I switched it from 4k to Full HD and could see a little bit more noise in the dark areas then. So maybe the readout works different than in UHD mode. But again 12800 was looking good to my eyes in HD and 4K mode.