Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Maybe its the same sensor that is in the AX53.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

The PXW-X180 was 60db, but had some very obvious fixed patterns at 18db due to noise reduction. We can assume it is at least 60db given the specs on the Z280. I think the Z190 is probably about the same sensitivity as the X180, f9@2000 with 60db s/n ratio. The specs say it is f11@2000, but at "high sensitivity mode", which as we know, is basically +6db of gain, so the old F9@2000 of the X180 in normal mode is likely retained.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Any ideas when we'll see more info / footage on these cameras? Doug?

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

I've uploaded a bunch of my test footage from the Z280.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Incompatible batteries. My Z280V only works with the original BP-U30. When I plug in a BP-U60 from BatteryChampion, I get "Battery Error please change battery".

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

So far, all of the Z280 videos I have seen online suffer from massive amounts of noise reduction artifacts. Im seeing "granular" dots in the shadows (not noise but artifacts left behind by temporal noise reduction) and torn edges on moving objects. We see these on Sony cameras set on very high gain. But these artifacts appear at 0db on the Z280.

I suspect that Sony was forced to read these sensors with a very high pre-amp amount to get that 0db up to a respectable brightness level.

As we all know, the more pre-amp that is done on the sensor collection the LESS headroom we have to take 0db up to higher amounts.

I really hope this camera is not relying on massive amounts of noise reduction to compensate for a lot of pre-amp being used at collection.

Doug...can you do a side by side between your Z280 and Z90 1inch sensor camera? These results would be facinating!

CT

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

I turn the DNR off on my PXW-X320, because it blurs everything at high gain, loosing a lot of resolution in the process, and causing a smearing effect when you move the image. Sony makes sure they list their s/n figures with noise reduction activated. The Z190 doesn't even list it's s/n ration, probably because it is so poor.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Yes, at some point when I have time I will do that. I'll mount the Z90 on the handle of the Z280 and take them out for some real-world shooting with similar focal lengths, exposures. etc. But I have to wait until I have a non-SLOG scene file for the Z280 and I haven't even started down that road yet.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Gah, I hate it when brands try to make you stick with their proprietary batteries!

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

New batteries that are Z280 compatible are now out:

S-8U95 98Wh Battery for Sony BP-U series

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...2855/KBID/3801

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Any idea how good the Z190 IS will be at full zoom/4k? Tripods aren't always an option! Looking to upgrade my Canon XA20 and the Sony Z190 looks to be a better camera than the Canon 4k replacement (which is only 15x zoom to boot).

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

More test footage posted on this thread . . .
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...-part-2-a.html

And this one earlier with S-LOG
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...-part-1-a.html

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

The Z190, like the X180 before it, has a pretty bad Active IS "jitter" at extreme telephoto settings. I dealt with the issue on my X180 all the time, and it looked like someone was vibrating the camera. It was alost impossible to keep the high frequency jiggling away, looked like cell hone video with no stabilization, you know, that "I can see your pulse on the footage" look.

A local stringer shoots with the Z190 an Active IS, and every single video I see from him is full of jiggle and shake, it's really bad, even his wide angle stuff looks jittery. These cameras REQUIRE you to have the PERFECT shooting hold, such as braced properly, EVF against your eye, maybe back of camera/battery shoved hard against your collar bone etc, in order to not have this jittering look at telephoto.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Why is he using Active? Active is NOT designed for extreme telephoto. Clearly a case of operator error.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Well, he shoots with the full auto switch activated, and doesn't bother to deal with the ND dial, so everything is shaky and shot at f11+...50% of the clips are full handheld telephoto, the other half are wide angle at a 7-10 degree tilt to the right. He was better off with his Canon XF405, which was not shaky how he used it. :-)

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

I think you should have revealed all that information in your first post rather than maligning the camera. The guy sounds like a clown no matter what you put in his hands. Why do we care to hear about his experience at all? If I put a monkey behind the wheel of a car and he drives it into the ditch, I don't blame the car.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Well I used Active at full telephoto on the X180, and I am not inexperienced. I did though have to take measures to alleviate the problem, such as using the EVF and shoving my tripod plate against my collar bone.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Why don't you try using the right Steadyshot mode for the right situation, and then you won't have to " take measures to alleviate the problem".

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

I've completed a 70 minute review of the Z190 and Z280.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Doug, I think you forgot to remove the lens cap from the Z190 when doing the low light 0db comparison! :-O

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

That explains it!

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Paul: what do you think "turbo boost" is for, if not to see thru the lens cap? ;)

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Enjoying your series, Doug. That comparison night shot made me want to reach for the scotch though. Just bought two 190s and discovering the low light limitations. I’ve read a few posts by you regarding the high sensitivity setting and your disdain for it. So...which is the cleaner option? Have it off and use more gain or have it on and use as little gain as possible. I film a lot of stage shows and lighting designers lately like to light shows with a candle. Literally sometimes. And think seeing faces is not necessary. Sigh. For wide shots especially I’m seeing a lot of noise in background and not as much detail on persons as I would expect given what the close up looks like (which is clear and sharp). Shooting 4K with high sensitivity on and 9 gain...sometimes wide open or down to 4 if I’m lucky (specs for most recent shoot that I’m editing). Hg4

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

The JVC implementation of high sensitivity mode is much better. It's a solid and dependable 6db of boost, with an accompanying slight increase in DNR application, per the BBC report. With a JVC, when you toggle between high sens (extended) and standard sens (normal), the two settings retain separate gain values. With the old Panasonic HPX2000 cameras, you'd activate what was labeled LINE MIX as a custom button function, and that applied the same 6db boost.

On the Z190, you have that huge 2-3 stop gulf when you switch to high sensitivity, so I would not use high mode unless you're absolutely sure you will be happy with 18db as your lowest value. Might just get fast at the menu and switch back and forth as needed.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Of course the last two things I’ve shot have been the trifecta of low light, black backgrounds and dark skinned actors...so high sensitivity and gain were necessary. Thanks for the 411 that high sensitivity is basically starting everything at 18 (that explains what I was seeing)

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

I would suggest only activating High Sensitivity mode if you'd already run the gain up to 18dB and you still need a little more. Otherwise, keep it off.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Sounds good. I wish we could set High Sensitivity as an assigned button. Early tests on “home footage” seemed to show less noise with high sensitivity and zero gain vs having gain 9-18. But in on site usage...that didn’t seem to be the case.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Sony probably has a separate noise reduction algorithm running when high sensitivity is activated, like JVC does. Sony loves noise reduction, but sometimes they seem to forget some of us shoot moving images. On my PXW-X320, at 18db, I need to add +10 detail to overcome the loss of resolution and clarity (blurring) caused by the DNR when turned on.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

'Candlelight' brought back memories from shooting promo clips for the Broadway show "Liasons Dangereuses' -- they actually did turn off all the stage spot lights for scene transitions - leaving them lit by only the real candles burning in the candelabra chandeliers, plus sometimes the slightest glow from the foot lights. Looked beautiful to eye but unusably dark on our show cameras. So I set up an A7s with a fast prime shooting a full stage shot (right next to my camera in one of the back rows) and just rolled it for the transitions - ISO was probably set at 6400 or 8000. Incredibly burned out whenever there were stage lights on, but the dark transitions looked wonderful, and several of the A7s shots made their way into the promo montage.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Is anybody else having issues with memory cards? I purchased sandisc 128gb extreme Pro cards with the cameras and had no problems. Then b and H had a sale so I figured I would purchase 6. Of them only two were recognized by cameras (other 4 wouldn’t be recognized by either camera either slot). Returned and was told a lot of people were having issues. Figured it was a bad batch. Bought four more from Adorama as that’s where I purchased the working ones. One of them worked. In looking online it seems to be a problem lately with Sony cameras in general.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

slightly off topic but I have an X200 and thinking to replace it with the Z190. Doug or someone else -- can you compare them for low light shooting?

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

It's been many years since I had my hands on an PMW-200 and I have never shot with an X200, so I don't really have any factual knowledge of how they compare to the Z190. But I'm 100% certain that Z190 is the worst of the bunch. It is by far the least light-sensitive video camera I have ever used. Period. My advice to anyone who thinks they might need to shoot indoors without lights or in any other low-light situation is to steer clear of the Z190. The Z280 is literally 4x better in low-light when shooting HD and 2x better in 4K.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Doug: how much is gained (if anything) by shooting in 1080 instead of 4K with the z190? I sadly have to agree with you on the light sensitivity (and lack there of). It’s strange as my 6 year old Panasonics are much more light sensitive. I shot a well lit show the other day and still needed 9db gain for most of it. I don’t find much noise and thanks to the settings you recommended in your masterclass on Vimeo I’m very pleased with the color, detail, etc. so seems something I just have to accept and not freak out on (which is hard). But curious if there’s a marked increase in light sensitivity by shooting in 1080

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Hi Jonathan, I'm glad to hear that you liked the master class and found it helpful. Although here is a difference in sensitivity between 4k and HD on the Z280, there is no difference at all on the Z190. It is the same either way. And I agree with you that the increase in noise when the gain is boosted is not all that bad compared to other cameras.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Hopefully you've seen an uptick in sales on your master class (I've been hawking that sucker left and right :)

So...just got back from the store and they agreed to let me return my z190s and purchase z280s instead. Which opens the next can of worms question.

Sales person thought that the MEADSD02 SDHC/SDXC CARD ADAPTOR and the SONY 128GB UHS-II SF-G SD CARD would work well, as I'd be shooting in the XAVC-L QFHD 150 mode:3840x2160 (and as that's 150mb and the card is 300mb speed...). Which if memory serves you did not recommend on the graph in your master class. (coupled with nobody seems to have the adaptors in stock in the USA and...)

And buying 4 of the Sony XQD adaptors saves $100 each (so it's actually cheaper to buy 4 of them and the more expensive XQD cards).

The problem now I'm seeing is...it seems that a lot of the Sony XQD cards are discontinued and I'm not sure what the safest option is. 128GB cards seem to be discontinued completely (Per B&H website) which given the whole Sandisk debacle.... In reading Sony's website I think I figured out that the 120 and the 240 GB cards are a more 'robust' housing (and thus more $$$ for less memory).

So before I bite the bullet and buy the cards...would all of them work in the z280 with the XQD adaptor? Are the 256 cards a better bet than the 128 (or visa versa)

Sorry to have so many questions...and be ping ponging so much and appreciate all the help and input

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Hi Jonathan, thank you very much for your support of my master class. I do rely on word of mouth advertising so your help is much appreciated.

Unfortunately, it might seem like I should be an expert on the various models and sizes of memory cards out there but I admit am not. There are too many of them to keep up so I don't even try. Personally I have some SxS-Pro+ cards I bought five years ago and some series-S XQD card I bought four years ago and I haven't bought a memory card since then. My advice is to buy the best cards you can possibly afford today and they will serve you reliably for years with the Z280 and other cameras in the future.

Keep in mind that ONLY SxS-Pro+ cards are officially approved for every recording mode the camera offers. And 4K can never be recorded on SD cards on the Z280. I recommend paying close attention to the chart Sony has at the end of the Z280 operation manual and afhere to those guidelines.

Re: Sony PXW-Z190 (1/3") and PXW-Z280 (1/2") at NAB
 

Thanks again for all the great information. Just wanted to let you know something I just noticed. Just bought my third Z280, and in getting it synced up to the settings you recommended (which is what I have set in the other two cameras), I noticed something odd. On both of the old cameras, the Master Black setting, which had been set to your recommendations for both Scene Files, was not correct. And in changing them noticed that the settings no longer work the way you mention on your video - namely that you no longer have to click through multiple times to get it to change from -1 to -2 (for example). Well you do, but it now tells you -1.1, -1.2, -1.3 etc. I'm guessing that the firmware 2.0 upgrade changed how Master Black levels get set (it now shows you the increments, instead of making you remember how many times you clicked up or down). So far that's the only setting that I noticed was changed, but I'd advise anybody who had created Scene Files, to double check the settings if they upgrade to Firmware 2.0