Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Yeah, Apple likes to keep even small but very useful items in reserve for the next years "model", just to push people to upgrade faster..."Well, the 2014 looks the same as the 2015, but it's got AC wireless!".

The Nvidia encoders don't have much use except for very specialized programs as far as I have seen...better off with Quicksync. From my limited research, the Nvidia encoders are about the same quality as Quicksync when transcoding at high bitrates, but the Nvidias go to crap as you force any serious compression on them.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

So I guess I found the issue with my HLG exports from FCPX. Even though FCPX has a selection for HDR HLG projects, it will NOT EXPORT them as HDR files...FTW. The only option is a full PQ transformation.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

And after even more testing, here is some additional useful data about the uselessness of HLG.

Exported raw Z90 HLG MXF HDR file directly to YouTube...it accepted it, but says "Sorry, not HDR".

I then used Catalyst Browse to transcode the raw XAVC-L HLG clip to both 8 bit XAVC-S and 10 bit XAVC-Intra...both did not receive any HDR metadata, meaning not only were they not able to flag as HDR on YouTube, they also fail to be recognized as HDR clips in FCPX, even if I wanted to convert to PQ.

So Catalyst Browse doesn't pass HDR metadata when transcoding...nice to know Sony is doing a bang up job on the "Instant HDR" front. It is worth noting that Catalyst Browse is full of the word HLG, BT202, HDR etc, but these don't seem to have any real world application or meaning. :-|

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

How about some Da Vinci Resolve 14 tests? You asked for it, well, not really, but here are the results.

Utter failure. Used the YouTube HDR guide, which BTW states that YouTube accepts HLG...set all the HLG settings and project as specified by YouTube. Exported out as 10 bit HEVC in Resolve, then uploaded to YouTube. FAIL...no HDR flag. The 7 second HEVC export took 11 minutes.

For those not aware, you can shoot S-log on the Z90 and render it on a PQ timeline to make HDR. Since any HDR content you must create at this time seems to REQUIRE PQ, it would seem to make much much more sense to just shoot S-log instead of this hybrid REC709 gamma with some HDR log highlights, since HLG is not really looking usable at this point.

Anyone care to test Premier Pro? I would download the trial version of it but at this time I have too much of a headache to continue tonight.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Resolve HLG to REC709 2.2 gamma h264 conversion...for the curious wondering how the "works on SDR TV's!" part of HLG looks. Note blown out highlights.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

I am sorry, but I posted in this thread *for your benefit* how to make an HLG video in Resolve that YouTube will recognize, but you chose to ignore the instructions, despite my also posting video examples that work based on the workflow. What exactly are you trying to prove? That if one doesn't know what one is doing you get bad results? Resolve will easily produce an HLG YouTube compliant video. Why not try following the instructions I provided and stop wasting your time and that of others who are plowing through your failed experiments. I like your video example.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Mark, the posted YouTube link was following YouTubes posted instructions. I made an additional video clip earlier with "luminance mapping" checked off, but it also failed the HDR test for YouTube. Here is the clip following your instructions, save for rendering in HEVC, as upload several hours ago. I will render another in your specified format just to triple check...a success would assume Resolve can only pass through HLG metadata for HDR when exporting in it's own custom codec?

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Mark, below is the DNxHR HQX HLG HDR QT AARP DEA HIPPA upload, and it indeed does throw the HDR flag on YouTube. I will run the file through Handbrake to see if a less than 800Mbps (100MB/s!!!!!!) file size is possible with your HLG export workflow. :-D

*also throws flag on Resolve to ProRes export, not sure why straight 10 bit HEVC out of Resolve doesn't.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Shot some daylight test footage. The clip below was shot in HLG1 with BT.2020 color in 4K. Converted it to PQ HEVC and upload to YouTube as with the previous clips. Used FCPX. Results are uninspiring to me visually...looks pretty dull and flat. Anything I upload to YouTube in HLG spec comes out with a weird magenta shadow tint, viewing on the only HLG capable viewer I have, so I don't do that anymore.

I shot a second series of the same shots in 1080p HLG/REC709, which was pretty pointless, as REC709 is incompatible with PQ HDR10 in any settings I am able to see. Not really sure why they include REC709 as an option with HLG...I am unable to even render out a usable simple SDR REC709 with those clips. Seems that the "HLG" S log portion begins at 70IRE, and anything above that when I try to convert to REC709 just hard clips...so imagine a 70IRE white/color clip.

:(

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

The uninspiring shot is in my opinion due to the lack of contrast and the high black levels (especially the wide shot on the parking lot).
I think the white balance in the last tire short shows very blue.

Rec.709 is fine, you just have to convert the Rec.709 gamut to the Rec.2020 gamut.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

I have searched for a while for how to convert color spaces, but run into things like BBC white papers and such that talk about the science and such, and nothing that gives FCPX settings or other such usable information. Do you have any handy links that could assist? If converting color space involves any "grading", then "I'm out". I am still not able to figure out how to export an SDR REC709 file out of my REC709 HLG camera files...that is pretty sad in itself :-\

The HDR to SDR REC709 HDR Tool effect in FCPX seems to be tailored for converting PQ into SDR 709, not HLG. Resolve is worlds ahead of FCPX in HLG compatibility. Cannot understand why FCPX cannot export HDR Metadata in HLG...as indicated by it's little exclamation mark popup warnings when attempting to do so.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

True, but they got to keep on moving.

NAB 2018 may show some new HDR goodies in Resolve, the update cycle has been quiet for awhile ;)

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

FCPX always seems to be 6-12+ months behind in anything useful. HLG in FCPX is more of an afterthought, meant to just check an HLG box. The new free Resolve 14 does a lot the old 12 didn't do, like export in 4K. So many color management options to play with, perhaps one will match my needed settings. I believe HLG conversion to HDR10 (normal PQ HDR) should be considered pretty mandatory for these programs. The camera companies are putting HLG in new consumer grade gear, so true "Instant GDR" that is other than plugging your HDMI cable into your brand new 2017+ HLG TV would be helpful.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Shot another HLG clip, but this time in HDR friendly 10 bit 4:2:2 HLG, using 720p60. I specifically shot this to try to highlight intense light at a dark scene...so I picked a lot of angles with lights shining into the lens. First clip is raw HLG upload, the second clip is HLG to PQ (HDR10) conversion. I still have an issue with using these clips for normal SDR REC709, as I can get levels looking correct, but their is an overwhelming amount of grain and noise across the entire image. This wasn't an important story, so SDR to air quality wasn't a big concern.

Paul

HLG

HDR10

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Another HLG to HDR10 Z90 file, this time in 1080p60. Picture profile was out of the box HLG/BT2020, no color corrections or other alterations to the factory picture profile. No grading performed, just dropped onto timeline and converted to PQ HDR10.

I also
figured out how to process HLG/BT2020 into SDR/REC709 in FCPX. Project set as REC709. Color space override set to BT2020. Export out and you get the normally saturated REC709 version. I guess the color space override conforms the clip within the project color space, which in my case was a REC709 project.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/prof...t-hdr-workflow

Sony's in depth step by step guide to working with HLG. Ignore the fact that the text spouts "without needing grading" and every example is specified as being heavily graded.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Another...I could almost use the HLG mode full time, if not for the fact that it kind of requires grading to bring down the blacks and mids slightly for SDR, to not look like a greyed out mess in the shadows. It also may handle highlights better...clipping is the same, but seems like it is able to see more in the area that would normally be assigned knee response, is in HLG assigned a log function. On the below clip, if you are seeing it in SDR on YouTube, the police lights that are flooding the back of the car...typically, in normal REC709, I would be expecting those to be a washed out overexposed white area...but they hold a lot of detail in the HLG conversion.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Another one. Noticing, even in 720p, HLG originated footage, used in HDR or REC709 renders, looks excessively noisy, especially in the shadows...like at least a 6db drop in s/n ratio.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Another 4K one.


Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Here is a pretty colorful daytime HDR file I just shot for fun. :)

The 10bit 4:2:2 codec really can STRETCH...even with the REC709 EVF assist, it was hard to determine exposure of the bright sky...everything I shot looked blown out, but I could gain it up a long way still before seeing zebras. Back in FCPX, I found I could pull the gamma down A LOT and still looked good, blue gained a lot of color.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

OK, so an update. I bought a brand new 2018 Sony X900F HLG capable 4K HDR TV set, so that I could see my HLG footage in original unmolested unconverted HLG glory...or so I thought. Every HLG exported timeline, be it FCPX or Resolve, with all settings retaining all HLG with no alterations, resulted in pathetic inaccurate video files, that looked like raw slog. I gave up on that, and thought, hey, just plug the camera directly into the TV and see what HLG looks like...yeah, didn't work. Brand new Sony HLG camera and brand new HLG TV...the TV does NOT recognize the HMDI output of the PXW-Z90 as an HLG/HDR signal, and as such, it looks horrid. I can though manually switch the TV into HLG mode for the input, which I did, but all this did was increase the backlight to maximum, and the image was still a washed out colorless log looking grainy disappointment. Switching the TV to HDR10 mode even looked better, but still did not look as you would expect. The TV was set to enhanced mode, the camera was set to HDMI 2160/1080p output.

So my final thoughts on Sony "instant HDR" workflow...well, there is still nothing instant about it, and the ONLY workflow I can make usable is to AQUIRE in HLG, and DELIVER in HDR10. If you know about HLG, then this would seem backwards, as you are not supposed to shoot in HLG, as HLG is supposed to be a delivery format. If I had a way to grade in HDR, I would play around with Slog3, but I don't know the first thing about grading slog, even in SDR. All HDR10 material starts life as slog type footage or film...RAW too, so not sure what Sony was going for with this "instant HDR" marketing ploy.

See the below link "if you plug in said camera to a 4K TV with HLG HDR support, it will immediately play it back with the appropriate contrast and tones, including the brighter highlights and increased contrast that make HDR so appealing. This ability is also what makes this an “instant” HDR workflow"

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora...2855/KBID/3801

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

What are your settings in Resolve, both your color managed settings and the output codec.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Color managed by Resolve, all three selectors to HLG 2100, luminance output turned on.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

If you destination is HLG you should not tone-map.

What codec did you use?

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Oh crap, maybe thats why it looks better when viewed in HDR10 mode. I need to buy a cheap HDR/HDMI output device so I can see what is happening prior to several hours worth of encoding a file just to see the results.

Typically use ProRes, so that I can Handbrake it into 10 bit HEVC.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

I personally find x264 using high10 or high422 in an mkv container easier all you need to do is to re-encode your encoded mov file with this:

ffmpeg -i file.mov -c:v libx264 -profile:v high422 -crf 14 -color_primaries bt2020 -colorspace bt2020_ncl -color_trc arib-std-b67 file.mkv

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Im trying to find the easiest way to view my darn files on my TV, which has limitations on what codecs it supports. Trying another Resolve export with tone mapping set to off, then a quick conversion to 10 bit h264 in HandBrake to see the results.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

But I would make sure the metadata is added as well: -color_primaries bt2020 -colorspace bt2020_ncl -color_trc arib-std-b67

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Speaking of metadata, here is what FCPX says when you attempt to export an HLG project. I think the term "not ready for primetime" applies here. :-|

I also attempted an HLG ARIB STD-B67 export out of Resolve, tone mapping off, and it came out extremely dark.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Assuming you exposed it properly it should be just right for a monitor or TV that is HLG compatible.

How are you watching this?

Are you trying to upload an HLG video or are you trying to convert a HLG video to Rec.709?

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Footage was exposed using the Z90 built in EVF/LCD gamma adjust settings. I am watching these files plugged into the USB jack of my Sony 4K TV. There is no other means to view HLG for me other than HEVC through the USB, or ChromeCast Ultra after uploading to YouTube.

As for exposure, these HLG files, when converted to HDR10 (PQ) in FCPX, looked perfectly fine and have normal shadows and midtones, with extended bright colorful highlights up to 1000 nit. Nothing I have attempted so far in passthrough HLG looks right. I would say it ends up looking the same on the HLG TV as it does on my SDR computer monitors, washed out and grainy.

I found out how to properly export REC709 from HLG BT2020 in FCPX...you must set the files to REC2020 colorspace override in the settings info menu...the rest of the project/timeline is left as REC709. Doesn't look quite as good as native REC709, but close enough you would have to know the camera to really tell.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Can you show me a screen grab of the RGB parade?

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

This is HLG2100 timeline, ignore the previous ARIB reference in the export window. I don't know how to read these values, I am used to IRE and NIT from FCPX.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Same clip scope view in FCPX.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

And FCPX when conformed to PQ using standard HDR tools effect.

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

What happened to your blacks and shadows? For any night scene you must have close to 0 IRE blacks.

The way to Read the built-in Resovel parade and waveform is to ignore the numbers and consider 0 as black and 1023 as white. You can switch the scopes to use nits in HDR in the user preferences.

It looks like everything is raised. Highlights looked clipped, is this a straight out of camera video or in any way processed with LUTs or transcoded?

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

You are looking at the raw clips on the timeline, no grading or correcting, only conformed as noted. Yeah, this is what HLG looks like in any way I touch it, like washed out log footage. Again...if I conform it to HDR10 (PQ) in FCPX, it comes out with great contrast, looking light a nice REC709 clip with colors that pop and highlights that peak at a real 1000nit. My HDR10 exports also include no grading, and look even worse on the SDR viewer, but on an HDR TV, they look correct.

Here is what the Resolve exported HLG2100 file looks like on my Sony HLG TV...and the TV did kick into HLG HDR when playing this file. The highlights are excessively low, like 100IRE low on my 1000nit TV at max backlight. :(

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Here is the raw HLG conformed to REC709 with no grading, which looks the same as if I had shot it in REC709 SDR as you can see...a bit noisier thanks to HLG though. If conformed to HDR10 (PQ), that streetlight would be like a laser beam shooting out of my TV set.

Paul

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

Well that's a problem, did you enable some black level setup in your camera?

Note that the scopes in resolve work in float32, that means regardless if the video clip is video or data level the scope should show all values between black and white (super whites and blacks while not clipped are not shown on the Resovle scopes.

Could you share the mediainfo of the clip?
https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

Re: Working with HLG footage
 

These clips are standard PXW-Z90 HLG/BT2020 with no other alterations to the picture profile settings.

Paul