Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Yes it's always a punt on just when these 'upgrades' will appear. If it happens next six months or so I will accept it as a bonus... a paid for bonus even.

I bought the camera on it's current HD performance which is pretty good considering the cameras small size profile etc. For flying interstate and shooting talking heads it fits the bill perfectly as I only need HD. HD in a nice small package that has a decent lowish noise image that runs on cheap media and has decent XLR pre-amps and that fits in a backpack. The upcoming QFHD upgrade wasn't a major factor in buying this camera but as I say I would most likely pay the dollars for the upgrade when it arrives.

I guess one of the main questions about the 4K is will it share the same specs as the FDR-AX1,

XAVC-S: MP4 (4:2:0, 150 Mbps, 4K 3840 x 2160/60p)
XAVC-S: MP4 (4:2:0, 150 Mbps, 4K 3840 x 2160/50p)

Or will it go the the MXF route of QHFD 4:2:2 10-bit @ 100 to 150-mbits.

We wait and see I guess!

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I would never buy this camera because one day it would do 4K, I"d buy it for what it can do know and if 4K comes it's a bonus. It looks like Sony has rushed this camera out to get sales started but they should have given a clear delivertime as that is what a business needs when they invest in a camera as they might have future projects that would require shooting in 4K

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Darren, FYI Japanese Sony personnel on the IBC told me the 4K upgrade will be in the first quarter of 2015 and cost will be around 500, unsure if that are dollars, euros or pounds.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Sony just keeps contributing to the rumor mill, they inform random people about delivery schedules and prices yet fail to announce anything official.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I would wait for the upgrade before buying if you really need 4K on the X70. I bought my FDR-AX1 a year ago and at the time was told the firmware upgrade to make the --data code button, USB host connector and SD card slot work with AVCHD would be in the summer of 2014. I bought it to get 60P so it has worked as intended for me. Last week Ver3 firmware came out with just AVCHD on the SD card slot !!! With the issue that the files can only be read from the SD card with Vegas, not from the USB port on the camera !!! The Z100 was also expected to get the upgrade for Long GOP at the same time. This was then promised for the end of Oct only 2 weeks ago and still has not appeared. Draw your own conclusions about when the X70 upgrade may appear. If you really need 4K on a small camera get the AX100 as I am sure it will end up being the same on the X70 with maybe MXf wrapper which is exactly what will appear for the Z100 ( essentially the AX1 8 bit 420 in a MXF wrapper rather than mp4). If you need 60P 3840x2160 get the FDR-AX1 they both work now.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Spoke to Sony people at PhotoPlusExpo and they said varyingly March through May and reminded me these dates aren't solid. So it seems end of first quarter at the earliest.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Even the new firmware for Long GOP for the PXW-Z100 will be 420 8 bit but with MXF rather than the mp4 of the AX1. I doubt the X70 will get 10bit 422 at 60P or even at 30P when it will all be 8bit 420 on the Z100. Why would they give it a better spec than the PXW-Z100 which is twice the cost .

As a power use example on my AX1 30P at 60Mbps or even 100Mbps will run for over 2 hours on the NP-F970 battery. At 60P 150 Mbps the battery will barely last 1 hour !! At that rate a NP-FV100 in a X70 might last less than 30 mins if one could cool the camera !!! The AX1 and Z100 both have fans. I still think 4K on the X70 will be 30P 8bit 420 with a MXF wrapper to stay MXF file format which is likely why the delay since a mp4 wrapper is already available in the AX100.

We shall see.
Ron Evans

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Speaking to someone at Sony at PhotoExpoPlus, they confirmed that the X70 4K/UHD codec will be the same as the AX100 so 4:2:0 8 bit is what to expect.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Noa

Sony have it printed on the X70 brochures that the upgrade will be available in the first six months of 2015. Which one of those six months? Anybodies guess I would imagine.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

If it's the within the first six months Sony personal should not say the first quarter, it's also still a guessing game what kind of 4 flavour the camera will be getting, guess we can ask the sony personal again :)

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Well, we've had recent info that predicted a March to May timeframe, or 2nd quarter 2015. But we've also heard under-the-table word that the 4K is going to be the same as the AX100. As good as that is, it's now almost one year old technology. May 2015 would make it almost 1 1/2 years since the AX100 was announced. I just can't believe that in 1 1/2 years Sony can't improve on the 4K, at least in data rate.

Or, if they never planned to improve on it, why not include it from the first release? Maybe they really wanted that $2300 entry price...it sure is getting my attention.

But then why would they wait so long to add the 4K if it's not something new?

I've been really looking forward to this camera as an upgrade to my 2011 Canon XF100, but I'm increasingly cautious. I still haven't seen footage with tweaked picture settings and some grading in post, so I'm still hoping this camera has more potential than we've seen.

I may end up getting the camera to see how it fits my needs (with a return option), but I'm eyeing the Panasonic X1000 as well now. Three rings, 20x zoom, 60p 4K, etc., but I really cannot make my peace with buying another (essentially) 1/3 inch single chip camcorder. By the time we pay for 4K on the X70, the cost will not be that different, I'm thinking. My problem is budget - as an advanced amateur who does promo and interview videos for some local school groups and non-profits, I don't buy a camera every year or two - this will need to last me for 3-4 years, so I feel like it needs 4K (or I'd find a way to get a C100 mk2).

Back to the X70/X1000/XF100 thoughts - I've been told that a 1 inch chip @ 2.8-4.5 (X70) has shallower depth of field than a 1/3 inch @ 1.8-3.6, but I'm going to have to test that for myself.

Well, thanks for reading my ramblings.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

As I mentioned, they promised that the AX1 and Z100 would have the firmware upgrade to make all the controls, interfaces work and also provide AVCHD by the summer of 2014 !!! Ver3 for the AX1 gives AVCHD but interfaces and buttons still do not work and the promised firmware for the Z100 for Long GOP still isn`t available. By the same token 4k for the X70 could be sometime in 2016 !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Sounds promising... not! But there again every update they have promised for the pro XDCam family has always taken place and on or about the scheduled release date. If it happens I will have a look at what the 4K offering is but whether I go for it, well that's still up in the air.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I had to cover a presser today shooting on PDW XDCam. Then I did a dangerous thing. The dangerous thing was I gave the journo I was working with the X70. He is totally not a cameraman. I said "Here, try and grab some overlay footage with this. I think a lot of you call it 'B' roll. Anyhow as the journo was a complete beginner I put the X70 on full auto running my modified PP4. The footage he shot was 1920 50i AVCHD as it had to go straight to the network after the shoot.

The venue was a total mixed light nightmare. Tungsten light with big picture windows with bright daylight and sunlight streaming in. Now bear in mind the the camera was in full auto mode with a totally inexperienced operator. The dangerous thing is that the footage he came back with was totally usable in most instances. Could do myself out of work if I'm not careful.

100MB download here if anyone wants to see how easy it is becoming for a neophyte to get reasonable footage.

www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/7m4ikj

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

some folks on "another forum" are complaining about the picture being "mushy" in many cases (i.e codec gets overwhelmed by complex things in the image like leaves on a tree etc. and pixellates). can anyone comment on that?

also complaints about the artificial sharpening being a little overt/"halos" around things, but image too soft when off. anyone have comments on that?

has anyone used both this cam and an ex1/3 extensively and can generally compare image quality between the two (colors, lens/sharpness, etc. )?

thanks

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I bought this camera to use for weddings. I have tested it somewhat and used it at one wedding only. I haven't noticed any mushiness or halos.

My only complaint using it for wedding work is the noise/grain when gain is added and unless your outside or in a room with a lot of light from windows, gain has to be used, a lot of it.

XA20 is much better in low light. I just got through editing the ceremony and had to apply NV to all the closeup shots to the X70 footage.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Oh yeah, cause f4 lens right?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I would think, yes. Starts at 2.8 ramps quickly to 4

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Christopher:

"I put the X70 on full auto running my modified PP4. The footage he shot was 1920 50i AVCHD as it had to go straight to the network after the shoot."

Have you shared yet what those modified PP4 settings were?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

No David I haven’t, I didn’t think too do so. In an earlier posting I said,

"Bearing in mind that what I was aiming for was a ready rolled 'look' that requires very little or no grading. A quick shoot, edit and deliver set up in other words. To try and get that look I ended up modifying PP4 for my uses. The changes made were to keep the video in the 16-235 delivery range and to try and achieve a natural looking roll off to the highlights and minimise white clipping whilst at the same time being careful to not crush the black levels too much."

I also posted a link to a video that has all the modified settings on its slate.

www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/t9yiwl

Basically the modified setup gives me a close to broadcast legal signal that looks half decent. It also gives me the greatest dynamic range I can extract from the camera in 709 mode. I think the range is not too bad all things considered. If you looked at the last clip I uploaded the indoor exposures haven’t totally blown out the bright sunlit detail seen through the big picture windows. Believe me the contrast range was quite severe. What surprised me is that the auto-white balance did a pretty good job of the mixed lighting conditions. If you didn’t get to see any of the clips then here are the settings.

PP4

Black level +4
Gamma ITU709
Black Gamma / Range / High / +7
Knee / Mode / Manual / Manual Set / Point = 87.5 / slope = -2
Color Mode / ITU709 Matrix
Saturation +2
Color Phase -3

These settings came about after a couple of hours on the greyscale and Macbeth charts while carefully monitoring all on a WFM and V’scope. As I said my aim being to extract the best dynamic range I could get out of the camera and yet at the same time create a fairly natural looking picture.

BTW when using the camera in full auto mode I find its best to run the ‘AE SHIFT’ at -0.7EV with the above settings. Even going down to -1.0EV when extreme harsh sunlight conditions dictate.

Hope these settings give you a starting point.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Chris,

The woman speaking at 45 seconds in the demo footage. Is it the lighting, or is she a .... Greens MP. :-P

(local political joke)

Andrew

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Chris, thanks for those settings. I did remember seeing them somewhere before but could not remember which video I saw them in. Here on the board they will be a good future reference.

I was very impressed with how well the highlights were controlled and with how the camera managed the challenging light sources in that latest footage.

How high have you found that you can boost the Gain on the camera before noise becomes objectionable?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

LOL! A bit of both probably. More the mixed lighting I guess than anything else but there again who knows? It reality it was a tough call for any camera auto white balance.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

That 87.5 manual knee setting with a -2 slope gives me the best natural looking highlight roll off. Negative slope values make for a gentler knee whereas +5 is in effect no knee, knee off. The problem I find with the higher steep knee settings is that you have to pull your exposure down to such a degree to avoid blowing the highlights that you end up underexposing the mid and lower levels. Better the keep them as close to correct as possible and let the highlights run into the knee earlier and give it a gentler slope up to 100-104 IRE. A more natural looking roll off. It's all a compromise really but it sort of works.

At the same time by lifting the Black Gammas. We used to call it 'black stretch.' We can keep the mid to lower black levels from crushing too much. Hence the Black Gamma High +7 setting. Way back Ikegami cameras used have a 'black stretch' and 'black press' switches on them to lift or compress the lower value black levels. I haven't used an 'Ike' in years so don't know if that's still the case. Most likely done in software these days like everything else.

The gain thing. Now this is interesting. A couple of us were playing with this and watching the results on a waveform monitor and switching visually between a grade 2 broadcast CRT and a new high end HDMI 47" Panasonic flat panel TV. Without a shade of a doubt the HD-SDI output to the grade 2 CRT was the quietest at any gain setting by some noticeable margin. Now whether this is a result of the HDMI processing on the camera ouput or the flat panel input processing who knows. We have always made subjective value judgements on the broadcast CRTs.

Using the modified PP4 I would feel totally comfortable using 18dB on a news job and even 21bB at a push. Putting the X70 up against an EX1R with both at 18dB with three of us viewing the consensus was that the X70 was quieter and also had a smoother more subtle look to its noise signature. Put the camera in Color Mode selection to black & white and even 33dB looked pretty darn good on the scope and on the monitor under blue screen selection. This indicates that most of the noise is coming from the chroma channels, probably the blue channel. This can be seen by selecting the more chroma intensive PP2. In the PPs, select Cinematone 2 under the gamma selection and you will have selected the noisiest gamma by some margin.

As there is a relationship between black levels, various gamma curves and the black gamma settings you will find various combinations of these will produce more or less noise at any given gain setting. In general terms the lower your black levels and black gammas are the image appears to be less noisy. That's the viewing perception at any rate. The more the blacks are crushed the quieter the camera looks. You are just pushing the noise floor down to where it is less visible to the eye.

What I we will do when I have the time is investigate why there is a noticeable difference in noise levels when viewing different out puts. What's to investigate? Well, is there a difference between the recorded image on internal card compared to an external SDI recording to say ProRes? Will different HDMI monitors give us different results? How are the monitors set up and is that what is influencing the viewed image? So many variables. I will,given the time check these issues out.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

In earlier camera XAVC 50-mbit 422 50p clips I uploaded, see earlier posts for the download link, I have plenty of trees, foliage grass etc. The PP5 clip in that download shows about nine different types of foliage on trees blowing in the wind. No mushiness compared to the fine detail smearing you can get with the EX 35-mbit MPEG-2 codec on fine moving foliage and water fountains etc. I have seen pixelization on AVHD 50p images. At 28-mbit those files are only 4-mbit larger than the 50/60i files at 24-mbit. 28-mbit for 50p is asking a bit much I think. So far I have not seen any issues to concern me in these XAVC 10-bit 422 50-mbit files as compared to some of the issues I have seen in AVCHD 8-bit 420 28-mbit files.

The major difference between the AVCHD and XAVC is in the profile implementation. AVCHD is Main 4:2:0 @ L4.0 whereas XAVC is Main 4:2:2 @ L4.2. That is a major advance in robustness for encoding quality.

See attached JPEG for the major data handling differences between the two levels, 4.0 and 4.2.

Early days yet with XAVC-L but so far so good. Time will tell I guess.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Anyone know if this camera has or even may be given ok by either BBC or other UK stations for reportage docs?!

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Chris, thanks for the detailed info. That's exactly the approach I take with my Canon XF100 - softer sloped Knee and lifted blacks. I don't do things on intense deadlines, so I really enjoy the creativity of shooting VERY flat, then using scopes in post to put highs, mids, and shadows, saturation, etc., where I want them. I never shoot anything at all with a finished look in-camera - even casual family videos :-)

One of my many reasons for interest in the X70 is that it will allow me to take a similar approach.

I was also glad to hear that you find Gain acceptable up to +18 - on the XF100 it's already almost unusable at +9.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

This is an excellent education for a relative newcomer to higher-end equipment. Still awaiting the arrival my X70, but my mindset is being well prepped in these very practical examples. Thanks

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Terence, I'm wondering where you bought yours. As you can see, I'm also in Vancouver and while I know B&H has them I prefer to buy cameras locally or at least Canadian for the warranty. There is a local shop that has offered to bring one in for me but if you bought Canadian I'd like to know. My searches on the usual suspects have come up empty.

Thanks

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Hi Jase,

I prevaricated quite a bit over this myself. As far as I know, the only place in Canada I could find the x70 was at Vistek in Ontario. They have quite a competitive price that is equivalent to the current US exchange rate:

Sony PXW-X70 XDCAM XAVC HD422 Camcorder Pro Camcorders - Vistek Canada Product Detail

However, you will have to forgive my lack of loyalty in this case, as I went with B&H. This was simply because I wanted a number of sundry items (a particular tripod and slider being the main ones) that simply weren't available anywhere in Canada. It just made economic sense to pay one shipping fee. B&H, as you may know, have a very good arrangement with Purolator that minimizes cross-border hassle and import duties.

I hope this helps.

-Terence

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Hi Terence

Thanks for responding. Now that you mention it, I did find the camera on Vistek's site but at the time, it was listed as unavailable. I sent an email asking them when they would have it, never heard back and forgot about them. They do have a good price as you point out, much better than the local store that said they would bring one in at my request.

Over the years, I've spent more money at B&H than I care to think about and yes, Purolator is the way to go.

I'm still undecided about the X70. Ideally I want a 1" sensor but with a greater zoom ratio. It doesn't exist afaik so a compromise is around the corner soon.

Do let us know what you think of the camera.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Those with the camera, in real world usage are you finding the 1" sensor @2.8-4 really gives shallower depth of field than a 1/3" sensor that is 1.8-2.8 or so?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I'm totally on board with you regarding this. At the moment there are a lot of compromises as the technology develops. Still, I think of what was available maybe only 6 years ago and it blows my mind. This is my best option at the moment for a smaller 2nd camera with a little more DOF control (given the limited aperture) at a pretty nice price point. The various footage I've seen was the decider for me at least.

I'll certainly give some feedback once I have the camera. The hold up is with the availability of other bits and pieces. I wanted everything in one shipment - dang!

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

In one word the answer to your question is, yes in the real world you do notice the difference in DOF. Why is this so one might ask?

A brief explanation if you will indulge me.

A 1” sensor has a diagonal dimension of 16mm. A 1/3” sensor has a diagonal dimension of 6mm. The crop factor of your 1/3” sensor relative to a 1” sensor is a factor of 2.6666 recurring. This is arrived at dividing the 1” diagonal by the 1/3” diagonal. 16 divided by 6 equals 2.6666.

This calculation is also relative to aperture. If your 1/3” camera was at f1:1.8 the depth of field at, let us say 10 feet, would be the same as the depth of field on the 1” sensor at f4.7998. For the sake of brevity let’s say f4.8. You multiply the 1/3” sensor aperture by the crop factor to arrive at this result, e.g. f1.8 x crop of 2.6666 = f4.7998.

In short yes your f2.8 aperture on the 1” sensor will give you a shallower depth of field than f1.8 on your 1/3” sensor.

For a far better and more accurate, and probably simpler explanation than I am giving here on aperture, DOF and the influences that sensor size has on these aspects of image one should have a look at sites like this:

Basic Photography Tutorial - DoF: Aperture and Sensor Size
Notes on crop factors, DoF and FoV - www.similaar.com
Digital Camera Sensor Sizes: How it Influences Your Photography

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Thanks for that explanation, and yes, I was just wanting to know if the difference was really enough to notice in real world use :-)

One thought - given that, for now, the X70 only does 1080p, does it shoot using the entire sensor and downsize it in-camera, or does it actually shoot using a crop of the sensor? And, does this make a difference on DOF?

And when the camera does 4K with the same sensor, will that have any effect on DOF?

Thanks again for your insights on this camera - I just pointed someone on another forum to this one for ideas on settings for the camera.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Quote:

"One thought - given that, for now, the X70 only does 1080p, does it shoot using the entire sensor and downsize it in-camera, or does it actually shoot using a crop of the sensor?"

No it does not crop so no DOF difference. The HD image is sub-sampled down from the effective 14.2 million pixels of the 4K sensor hence the sharp image. Too sharp in fact for certain subjects. Especially older people's skin or beautiful young things with skin blemishes. Outdoors and cityscapes etc look fine with the stock auto detail setting. Don't forget the x70's detail circuit is a dynamic thing and that the camera uses automatic optimization for detail setting depending on what it thinks is best at any given setting.

Under the PP's In the Detail / Manual Set menu you can select ON if you wish and then you have manual control to adjust detail levels to you hearts content.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Chris
Thank you so much for these PP settings.
Very natural looking, great color, and terrific dynamic range.
It's become my go-to setting now.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I agree, Thanks Chris

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Happy it's of some use to you guys :)

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Yeah Chris thanks for the PP suggestions. I'm having trouble using +4 black level indoors. It seems to add to the already high noise. About +1 is as high as I can go. I really like the black gamma and the knee settings, seems to help the DR quite a bit.