Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You could see the advantage the 1" sensor has over a smaller 1/2.3" sensor when looking at the following link showing a comparison of the RX10 with 1" sensor and F2.8 zoom vs the Panasonic FZ200 with 1/2.3" sensor and F2.8 zoom.
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/son...erturesAOV.png

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

He is incorrect , the FDR-AX100 Handycam does not have a projector.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I can't figure out if that camera has the gyro lens system or not.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

any files around straight from the camera?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

No it doesn't have the balanced optical stabilizer of the NX30U or the consumer PJ series. It just has Optical with Active mode according to the specs. Lens and sensor assembly is quite big in comparison to the 1/2.88 sensors and lens.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Thanks Ron, you just saved me $2k! lol

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It may not have the balanced image stabilizer but it looks to be a better AVCHD camcorder with 4K as a bonus though.

If you just need the balanced image stabilizer then the PJ790 is the equivalent and almost as expensive . The other consumer models are now 1/4" sensors or less. So for 1/2.88 sensor the choice is NX30U at $2000 or the PJ790 at about the same price too !!! Sony price to market as to what they want to push !!! For handheld shooting the balanced image stabilizer is great if that is what you want.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The AX100 would have to be a much larger camera to use the balanced OSS module and that large 12x Zeiss zoom with 62mm filter thread.

http://www.crutchfield.com.edgesuite..._lensunit2.jpg

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Sony's marketing is very smart in pricing the new CX900 at just below the PJ790V's in US$ according to B&H's web site. Overall the CX900 looks to be a superior HD camera with more manual controls, a bigger and more light sensitive sensor, options for a better codec. etc. except for one that really counts for a lot of people, the BOSS. Joe is right it would not be technically possible to fit a gyro unit similar to those on the PJ7xx and PJ6xx series on the CX900 due to the coverage requirement of the 1" image circle.

There you have it, 2 new and 1 carried-over top of the line Handycams, one shooting 4K at US$500 premium above the other 2 that offer different feature sets at about the same price.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The PJ-models are also going to be replaced with new ones.
With PJ-810 to be the topnotch.
Which seems to be a lot cheaper than the older PJ790?

Unveiled: New Sony Handycam Camcorders and 4K Prosumer Camcorder | BH inDepth
and
http://bhphoto.prod.acquia-sites.com...ycam_specs.pdf

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Was just on a conference chat with Sony Pro about the topic of XAVC.

We were partially discussing the Sony AX100 and I took the chance to ask about the cameras sensor read out. (even though its' only a "Handycam")

Sony did conform that the senso did not line skip in video and that every pixel is read when scanned and scaled to 4k

They refused to answer any questions about a "pro" sister model to the AX100. (as expected but I HAD to at least ask)

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

This may seem like splitting hairs, but if a sensor was to pixel BIN (average like photosite colour values, straight off the chip) it could accurately be described as "reading every pixel". Even though the end results would be similar to a line skipping case.

The more revealing question to ask would be "does it read every pixel, do a full deBayer, then downscale to 4k from that?"

My suspicion is that this camera does indeed do things "properly" - but in principle just everybody be aware of the possibilities of getting truthful answers that can be misleading.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Having the CX 790 with the magic eyeball, I can say I was very happy with the AX100's active mode at CES, the camera is the perfect balance of size and weight to hand hold.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hi Paul, can i conclude, does the active mode in the AX100 stabilise the same or even good as the CX790 with his extra balanced eyeball?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The sensor on the 810 (1/3.95) looks like (I can never read those dang fractions with any confidence, but I *think* I'm correct?!) it is still smaller than the 1/2.88 sensor that populated the CX/PJ7xx series cameras for the last two model years. Even though larger than the "consumer" cameras, it still looks like a distinct "downgrade" to me?

The 7xx cameras are pretty good performers, but looks like they are the "end of the line"... too bad, since the "BOSS" worked quite well - understandably it would be harder to gimbal/gyro a larger imaging block the size of that on the RX10 and AX100.


Sony feels they "hit it out of the park" with this new generation 1" sensor (and it's quite good!), I don't quite understand the crippled CX900 (and in this case it distinctly IS the AX100 sans the 4K!?). It's not like they're saving a whole bunch on the guts, or the exterior... or... or... OK... I don't get it? To me it looks like a FIRMWARE "option", unless there's a couple "secret" bits of silicon in there somewhere?! I questioned why the RX10 didn't have 4K of some flavor for the same reasons. The only other possible explanation is that Sony has a limited yield of "4K capable" Bionz X processors, similar to how it's typically been with high end processors - some of them don't quite "make the grade", but are too good to toss out, so they get a lower speed rating?



@David - There is a substantial difference between sampling every pixel, then crunching ALL the data, some of which will of necessity be "averaged out" in order to produce a downscaled image... vs. tossing out every other (or every 3rd or 4th or whatever) line worth of data. You can't use data that is simply ignored before processing.

Part of the new "X" processor is the capability to deal with ALL the sensor data early in the processing, rather than diverting substantial chunks of the data away from the "input" BEFORE processing. The more data can be preserved along the line, the better (and more free from errors/artifacts) the output should be. I see that there is a HUGE difference between the two approaches, that seems to be "in the pudding" of the output.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It works very well, similar to the 18-200 on the NEX-VG 20, For as good as the magic eyeball is, I have never been happy with the sharpness of the lens at the telephoto end on the 700 series and suspect part is due to the heavy cropping on the chip for the eyeball, not what you want with 4k I suspect.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Question: Do we know yet if this camera is capable of doing a live video out via HDMI for monitoring or recording externally? Sorry if that's been addressed elsewhere.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You misunderstand me. Firstly, I did say that I do feel this camera does things "properly".

But it's possible to read all the photosites on the chip, but then bin groups together - that is not the same as is believed to be the case here. "Binning" is normally taken to mean just taking a group of values from photosites and doing a simple average - without any consideration of their relative geometry.

That's not is believed to be the case here - full read out, deBayer to form an intermediate image of full sensor dimensions, then downscale.

In the case of line skipping, a typical scenario would be read two lines, skip two - then effectively do the same for columns - read two, skip two. You'd be left with a 2x2 Bayer block out of 4x4, and the resolution would be limited to a quarter of the linear sensor dimensions.

But it's easy to imagine a case where every photosite is read, but the sites for each colour just get simply averaged within a 4x4 block (ie binned). The resolution will still be limited to a quarter of the sensor dimensions.

Do a proper deBayer and it's obviously possible to get far better - probably higher than the target resolution it will be downscaled to.

All I was trying to get at is that just saying "the sensor is fully read, no sites are skipped" only tells a fraction of the story. There are three possible scenarios - tossing data away, reading it all, but notmaking anything like full use of it (ie binning), or making full use.

As said before, I'd like to see proper chart results before being specific, but yes, I'm inclined to agree that this camera probably does do it the best way.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I agree David, there are many ways to "crack the nut"... and while I think Sony got it right at the sensor and processor stage, there are still a couple gripes of the RX10 being only 1080p (when it sure appears it COULD have had 4K, but it would have stolen the thunder from the AX100 and the A7/7r), and of course it remains to be seen whether 30p 4K will be smooth enough for motion to look good, and if so how much motion will be "too much" for 30p to handle effectively (I far prefer the look of 60p myself). One could say that 30p is tossing out half the temporal "data" vs. 60p...

Any approach has potential compromises in order to keep the massive amounts of data manageable and storable on reasonably priced media - you have to pick and choose what gets tossed and where!

I'm looking forward to seeing real world tests from this camera, the RX10 is performing nicely, this should be a nice complement to it!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I'm no expert on the math behind "pixel binning". However, it's my basic understanding that binning is simply taking a cluster of pixels, capturing each output values (like "voltage" readings for lack of a better word) and averaging those clusters into one single value. (one value per cluster)

The idea or the goal is to get 1920x1080 single (pixel) values from each their nearby clusters.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that the same (roughly) technique that Photoshop and other apps would do when scaling a 20mp picture down to a 2.1mp (HD size) image?

If dis guarding high amounts of image data is the goal, wouldn't a pixel averaging scheme (after be Bayer) be the best mathematical way to do it?

I imagine these pixel binning calculations are extremely complex.

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Dave it does 1920x1080 60p which will glorious no doubt.
30p at 4k

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I am sure the FDR-AX100 is priced for marketing the 4K TV's without destroying the higher end products. Point and shoot but with the possibility of being used film style shooting at the lower frame rate by enthusiasts. I still think we will see Pro version maybe slightly bigger with 60P etc that we all want but with out other functions in the FDR-AX1 after its firmware upgrade this summer. So I don't expect it until after this upgrade to the FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100. It will then present me with the dilemma of changing my FDR-AX1 and or NX5U !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The key question for higher data/bit rates is what would it record to... I don't think Sony will swap out the card slot/reader in a pro version, so is there any spec that will allow for a faster SDHC or perhaps MS Pro Duo that can handle the throughput? I'm sure there's stuff coming (that 4K Panny GH will need something to record to!), but Sony needs memory on the shelf...

@Bruce - I'm sure the 1080 60p will be quite nice, and I'm hopeful that even at 30p, the 4K will be usable to crop/pan down to a nice usable 1080p as well. One can still can dream of 60p and ginormous memory cards!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The UHS-III standard for SDXC is supposed to be faster than even MicroP2. Sony has not hopped on that bandwagon though. Sony's opting to keep XQD alive in the pro market. I don't even think the FS700R supports UHS-I.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The XQD is not much bigger than an SD card and there looks to be plenty of room for it just whether there is room for 2 slots for a Pro version. I still think there will be a heat problem other wise why the fan in the FDR-AX1 and the PXW-Z100 . Unless the processor in these models, maybe from the F5/F55, is less efficient than the consumer BionzX and the drivers for the XQD are power hungry !!! Both these models only work with the 970 batteries not the smaller L series.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I have a sneaky suspicion that the "new" sensor and processor were a tad unexpected performance wise, and that may have caused a bit of internal friction at Sony.

From the interviews I've read, the RX series is sort of an experimental design exercise - sort of a "come up with an unconventional design concept, and just do it" sort of thing.

Very likely someone in the video camera side of things realized they'd better put all the hardware resulting from these wacky experiments into the "Handycams" somehow, before they became completely irrelevant. The consumer side of things tends to move much faster than the "pro" side, so they might still be "catching up" in that division!

It's entirely possible that we'll see a lot more of this sensor/Bionz X combo - it seems like it falls in a sweet spot performance wise.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I use Patriot SDXC in my cameras which quote a read speed of 50MBps and write of 35MBps so should be OK for the XAVC-S 60P rate of 150Mbps. Though one still needs a quality class 10 card to meet the 60Mbps for 4K at 30P for reliable performance. This may also figure into the marketing of this camera to keep ownership at the $2000 level for reasonable length video files and time. At 60P one goes through a XQD 64G card in 50 mins on my FDR-AX1 and costs $200. In comparison a Patriot EP SDHX UHS-1 Class 10, 64G card cost $60 and at 30P would record 2 hours !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It's funny. Sony just released two cameras with the BionzX and 1 inch sensor combo. (RX10 & AX100)

Sony seems to have put on hold their traditional practice of "camera crippling" on these two models.

Both of these cameras do a full sensor readout? No line skipping? The RX10 is given practically every feature you could ever want? (variable Zebras, peaking, focus magnification, real audio meters and full IRIS, Gain and Shutter control, ND filter and more)

The AX100 - more full sensor readout, 50Mbp/s HD, zebras, peaking, full manual control, 3 ND filters and more on a $2000 Handycam?

They seem to be suddenly throwing everything + the kichen sink into their "cheap" cameras now. Sony never, ever would have done this two years ago! Sony was the master of feature slicing and dicing. They could play that shell game better than anuone. (very frustrating to the buyer)

Today, the only "crippling" they allowed is on the codec side of both cameras. The RX10's codec looks sharp on slow motion scenes but then looks very "soft" on the fast moving pixels. (I have done ProRes tests and it's true) The AX100 is locked down to 60Mbp/s...the lowest bitrate you would ever want in 4K.

Maybe that is their plan now? Give all features to all cameras (except picture profiles) and let the codec variations seperate the camera models and price points?

Hmmmm....I like it so far.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Keep in mind that there are two market categories that Sony has traditionally sold well in that are nearly dead - compact point and shoot, and consumer video camera, both gunned down by the cell phone, and on life support at best. Those two niches could disappear entirely within a couple years for "lack of interest". Even the SLR/ILC categories took significant hits in sales this year, across the board... probably also wounded by cell phone/tablet/phablets, but also affected by a relatively stagnant level of "innovation".

Into this step new managers trying to keep a company viable financially. There is one fellow in particular that seems to have been the inspiration for these "different" designs.

Literally, companies must create new markets from "nothing", and they can't afford to play games, they have to deliver cameras not just that makes the user "believe". but pinch themselves to make sure they aren't dreaming! It's literally a "do or die" market in digital imaging, Sony has always had a small chunk of the market, and with a shrinking market, crowded with 2 "major" players and a pocketful of "minors", they need to "make every shot count".

Sony got serious shooters attention with the RX100, the M2 version continues the tradition, the RX10 has again caught a lot of people's eye, the AX100 similarly is "expensive", but has it's market to itself, at least for a while. Reviewers scratch their heads, say these cameras are really expensive, but that they are REALLY significantly revolutionary, fun cameras for the guy or gal who has grown tired of "cell phone" or compact P&S "quality".

Market stresses and shifts for the manufacturer are GOOD for the end user! It's nice to see cameras that aren't just minor refreshes of rehashed designs, new ideas, new concepts that are actually useful for pro or casual shooters alike! It's also nice to have the "wish lists" shorter rather than long, almost as though the manufacturer(s) are listening to what users want!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The CX900 1080p sample video looks soft compared to the AX100 4K sample video of the same scene .
CX900 2560x1600 screen capture :
11984355773_6283318ae3_o.png



AX100 :
11984397983_c09d8062fd_o.png

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

nice piece Dave

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I may beg to differ as the Zeiss lenses on these cameras may have terrible cases of barrel distortion, but the processor is doing it's best to correct it. I do notice on the edges of the picture in the sample video some smearing possibly due to barrel distortion correction. Wonder why the price is so low? It's because they put a crap lens in front of a high-performance sensor and processor combo. It's a more extreme case than the C.A.C. in the EX1.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I think I paid 2000 for a HC1 in late 2005. Using an inflation calculator I googled that's a little over 2300.00 today. Sony may well be utilizing the economy of scale algorithm (lol) and plan on selling these in the kazillions so manufacturing costs although high at the outset will dwindle whilst sales skyrocket. (certainly does not seem to be a cheapo lens...that's for sure)

So what about the pan handle zoom controller? Is it old school lanc, cx series which uses the a/v port or HX series utilizing the micro usb port which btw I have found to be problematic in that mains a/c and pan handle functions which use the same port cannot function concurrently

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

"Price is so low?" It's their 3rd highest priced consumer camera, behind the VG series.
And I don't see much distortion, although I don't have a 4K monitor to view the footage. The footage looks outstanding to me.
Sony probably could have put a better lens on it, but not for $2,000.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The VG series actually aren't marketed in the same "consumer" class either, meaning the AX100 is the new "flagship" consumer (they actually refer to it as "prosumer" on the web page) camera.

It's still a $2K camcorder, expensive, but not unheard of in "consumer" cams - the CX900 of course "fills in" the second highest slot at a more "consumer-y" price closer to the retiring 7xx series top of the line 1/2.88" sensor cams. The next 4K price point is what, $4500, and I'm not sold on the performance from a small sensor, vs. what the AX100 brings to the table.

We have to have hands on to know how good or bad the camera will be in practical use, but it sure looks like the bang/$ ratio is in line. 4K, even if only 30p, plus what should otherwise be a pretty good 1080 60p camcorder with full manual and a nice combo of lens/sensor/processor... seems pretty reasonable to me even if there are a few quibbles here or there.

It's definitely going to give the "competition" some fits (oh wait... what competition... when's that GH going to actually see market again?). Sony didn't put their foot in the door, they've kicked it down...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I agree, assuming that video really was shot with an AX100, it's WAY better than any $2000 camcorder that I know of today. The lens looks fine to me.

The fact that Sony didn't pull the typical "Handycam & NX30" trick of allowing you to control gain or shutter speed but NOT both at the same time....shocks me! It seems they didn't block anything.

Anybody know a better $2,000 camera today? (GH4 might be a challange soon though)

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I did view it on a Seiki 39'' monitor and the corners look more interpolated than the center of the picture, especially in the boat scene from the sample video.

What would be great is if Sony entered the MFT market with XAVC MFT cameras competing directly against the AF100, but I think we all know they're loyal to E-mount, which leans more towards a APS-C sensor rather than MFT.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

That's the peculiar part: Sony seems to have put the better, bigger sensor in their consumer 4K cam, compared to their prosumer 4K cams. I definitely prefer a 1" sensor over a 1/2" sensor. I'll gladly sacrifice zoom range to accommodate the bigger sensor.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I would buy one too if I could have 60P. Until then my FDR-AX1 is OK. I think the zoom range is the limiting factor. I want to see how the clear zoom looks too as 18x may be good enough. Certainly the 24x with AVCHD would be great and that is at 60P so does represent an improvement over my NX30U with better control too and may be a good reason to sell my NX5U !!! .

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@ Jack -

Sony ALREADY supports A and E series mounts/lenses in APS-c and now FF, why on earth would you think they would EVER jump on MFT?! They have a potent new combo with the RX/AX sensor and Bionz X processor, they aren't going to go reinvent the wheel and add yet another format in a shrinking market...


@ Glenn -

Sony is trying to (successfully by all appearances) open up some new markets for people who don't want to carry a bag of lenses and accessories, but still want better quality images and convenient to carry cameras. In the process, just as when they released the old TRV900 and HC1, they are creating some tools that border on "professional grade", and might even outperform on some levels, and meet the needs many pros might have for "personal" cameras that don't deliver lousy results!

I'd also expect that perhaps there will be some pro cameras with this sensor/processor once they vett it - the sensor and processor look to have a lot of potential.