More HVX truth

Robert Lane · August 6th, 2006, 01:44 PM

No, but if you click the link I supplied above you'll see the Texas Shootout comparo with tons of direct, same-scene comparisons.

Greg Boston · August 6th, 2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Greg,

I keep forgetting that there were 2 shootouts, TX can CA. I've got so much on my brain with this big project I'm lucky to remember my name!

That's okay Robert. I understand the confusion. Have been in that state myself once or twice (or was it three times).

Here's where DVINFO comes to your rescue. Each time you post, look to the left of your posting and the forum will automagically display your name for you. (grin)

-gb-

Robert Lane · August 6th, 2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Here's where DVINFO comes to your rescue. Each time you post, look to the left of your posting and the forum will automagically display your name for you. (grin)-gb-

Good idea. Now if I can just figure out who this Robert dude is on top of my name... :-P

Mark Sasahara · August 7th, 2006, 11:09 AM

Prosumer gear will always have a problem. Usually several. Usually, at least one really big, glaring problem.

That's why it's prosumer.

A 1/3 inch chip cam will never give you the sharpness and resolution of a 2/3" chipset.

Ash Greyson · August 7th, 2006, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Sasahara

Prosumer gear will always have a problem. Usually several. Usually, at least one really big, glaring problem.

That's why it's prosumer.

A 1/3 inch chip cam will never give you the sharpness and resolution of a 2/3" chipset.

While I agree that 2/3" CCD cameras are better in all aspects in general... the XLH in 60i is actually sharper and resolves more than the Varicam. That being said, I think uprezzed SDX-900 looks better than native HVX...

ash =o)

Robert Lane · August 7th, 2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Sasahara

Prosumer gear will always have a problem. Usually several. Usually, at least one really big, glaring problem.

That's why it's prosumer.

A 1/3 inch chip cam will never give you the sharpness and resolution of a 2/3" chipset.

No doubt, any sub-$10k body has it's weaknesses compared to it's 2/3" chip bigger brothers, and I don't think anyone expects any of the affordable HDV/HD cameras to perform at 2/3" chipset levels. We can dream and hope, but I think we're all pretty realistic about inherent weaknesses.

Robert Lane · August 7th, 2006, 03:55 PM

So, as I mentioned at the start of this thread, after coming across subject material that showed more of the HVX's weaknesses I had determined that going to the H1 would solve the problem with regard to sharpness.

While the H1 is obviously the resolution/color contrast king the reality of tyring to merge footage from any HDV camera into a project that is DVCPRO-HD based turns out to be much more complicated - and costly - than I had imagined.

Without getting into all the gory details, what it comes down to is this: The Canon is a 1080i camera; the HVX (as we shot it) is true 720p. Even with the KONA LHe there's no cost effective or workflow-logical method for merging the two formats without either serious image compromises or, a post-intensive 3-stage conversion workflow, neither of which makes any sense. (Thanks to the guys at AJA for pointing this out).

So, for the landscape stuff I'm simply going to rent a 2/3" inch DVCPRO-HD body. The rest is going to be shot on the HVX!

So, in fact I'm NOT moving to the H1 after all. I knew there were good reasons for choosing the HVX to start with! (laughs) Oh well, the knowledge gained from this little adventure is a lesson well learned in the constant quest for video knowledge.

Mark Sasahara · August 7th, 2006, 03:58 PM

Ash, I find that hard to believe that the H1 has greater sharpness and rez than the Varicam. Is that from one of the shoot-outs?

Robert Lane · August 7th, 2006, 05:17 PM

Mark, I think you misunderstood: The H1 has more sharpness and res than the HVX, not the big-Varicam body.

Mark Sasahara · August 7th, 2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

While I agree that 2/3" CCD cameras are better in all aspects in general... the XLH in 60i is actually sharper and resolves more than the Varicam. That being said, I think uprezzed SDX-900 looks better than native HVX...

ash =o)

Yeah, I was gonna say. Just going by what Ash wrote. :~)

Oy! All this video talk makes my teeth hurt.

Ash Greyson · August 7th, 2006, 05:56 PM

Nope... I meant what I said. I do LOTS of Vari stuff and on a couple shoots with the Vari and the XLH, the XLH was sharper, not better, but sharper with more resolution (it was in 60i mode). We thought something was "up" so we shot some rez charts (not me, one of the techs I work with ) and the XLH does indeed resolve more lines than the Varicam. Not too shocking really as the Vari is 960X720 native...

ash =o)

Mark Sasahara · August 7th, 2006, 06:20 PM

Ash, even with the Varicam's larger chips at 720, vs H1 1/3" chips at 1080?

So, then how would the H1 stack up against an F900, or the HDX900 (is that out yet?), or another 1080 camera? Probably not better, but close enough to be good enough?

As soon as I think one camera is better than another I read something that shoots a hole in my theory. All of this has my head spinning there is just too much bulls*** to deal with.

When the PDW350 came out, I thought okay that's the camera. Then Panasonic announced the HDX900, HD big brother to the SDX900. I'm getting of topic here, but WTF? I really don't want to get another prosumer camera I've realy had it with them, so I'm looking at a 2/3 inch camera. But which one?

Robert Lane · August 7th, 2006, 06:42 PM

My sentiments exactly, Mark. I was excited about the F350 too until I realized it was shooting HDV 4:2:0. Bigger, better chips with more res but same HDV workflow issues.

That IS the $30k question: which "big" camera is the best way to go? HPC2000 looks good on specs, but no VFR mode. Sucks.

Philip Williams · August 7th, 2006, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Sasahara

<SNIP>
So, then how would the H1 stack up against an F900, or the HDX900 (is that out yet?), or another 1080 camera? Probably not better, but close enough to be good enough?

As soon as I think one camera is better than another I read something that shoots a hole in my theory. All of this has my head spinning there is just too much bulls*** to deal with.
<SNIP>

Just check out the DV article by Adam Wilt from the Texas shoutout. There are resolution charts from the varicam and H1. The H1 resolves some incredible detail, right around 800 lines horizontal and vertical. Its amazingly sharp. But things aren't all perfect in H1 land either, in 24/30F mode the horizontal rez drops to 540. Plus the HDV 4:2:0 color sampling can be pretty obvious sometimes (applies to all HDV tape recordings of course).

Anyway, I wouldn't consider the rez of the H1 to make it that much "better" than the other offerings. Its just one of its strong points. I personally still prefer the HVX because of the color sampling and variable frame rates. As has been often pointed out, all these affordable HD cams are pretty close in performance. I think its safe to say a competent film maker could produce stunning product with any of them.

Actually, the Canon XH A1 is my new favorite: you just can't beat that price/performance ratio :)

www.philipwilliams.com

Rob McCardle · August 7th, 2006, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

My sentiments exactly, Mark. I was excited about the F350 too until I realized it was shooting HDV 4:2:0. Bigger, better chips with more res but same HDV workflow issues.

That IS the $30k question: which "big" camera is the best way to go? HPC2000 looks good on specs, but no VFR mode. Sucks.

Exactly, Robert. I go round n round n round until I'm sick of looking at the pro's and cons.

My position hasn't really changed from a year ago and am going to continue to bloody well rent until this whole mess shakes down !

Spinning out and absolutely fed up with looking at camera specs here in noozeeeland !

August 7th, 2006, 11:09 AM	#34
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	Prosumer gear will always have a problem. Usually several. Usually, at least one really big, glaring problem. That's why it's prosumer. A 1/3 inch chip cam will never give you the sharpness and resolution of a 2/3" chipset. __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography

August 7th, 2006, 03:55 PM	#37
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	More DVCPRO reality checks So, as I mentioned at the start of this thread, after coming across subject material that showed more of the HVX's weaknesses I had determined that going to the H1 would solve the problem with regard to sharpness. While the H1 is obviously the resolution/color contrast king the reality of tyring to merge footage from any HDV camera into a project that is DVCPRO-HD based turns out to be much more complicated - and costly - than I had imagined. Without getting into all the gory details, what it comes down to is this: The Canon is a 1080i camera; the HVX (as we shot it) is true 720p. Even with the KONA LHe there's no cost effective or workflow-logical method for merging the two formats without either serious image compromises or, a post-intensive 3-stage conversion workflow, neither of which makes any sense. (Thanks to the guys at AJA for pointing this out). So, for the landscape stuff I'm simply going to rent a 2/3" inch DVCPRO-HD body. The rest is going to be shot on the HVX! So, in fact I'm NOT moving to the H1 after all. I knew there were good reasons for choosing the HVX to start with! (laughs) Oh well, the knowledge gained from this little adventure is a lesson well learned in the constant quest for video knowledge.

August 7th, 2006, 03:58 PM	#38
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	Ash, I find that hard to believe that the H1 has greater sharpness and rez than the Varicam. Is that from one of the shoot-outs? __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography

August 7th, 2006, 06:20 PM	#42
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	Ash, even with the Varicam's larger chips at 720, vs H1 1/3" chips at 1080? So, then how would the H1 stack up against an F900, or the HDX900 (is that out yet?), or another 1080 camera? Probably not better, but close enough to be good enough? As soon as I think one camera is better than another I read something that shoots a hole in my theory. All of this has my head spinning there is just too much bulls*** to deal with. When the PDW350 came out, I thought okay that's the camera. Then Panasonic announced the HDX900, HD big brother to the SDX900. I'm getting of topic here, but WTF? I really don't want to get another prosumer camera I've realy had it with them, so I'm looking at a 2/3 inch camera. But which one? __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography

August 6th, 2006, 01:44 PM	#31
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	No, but if you click the link I supplied above you'll see the Texas Shootout comparo with tons of direct, same-scene comparisons.

August 7th, 2006, 05:17 PM	#39
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	Mark, I think you misunderstood: The H1 has more sharpness and res than the HVX, not the big-Varicam body.

August 7th, 2006, 05:56 PM	#41
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Nope... I meant what I said. I do LOTS of Vari stuff and on a couple shoots with the Vari and the XLH, the XLH was sharper, not better, but sharper with more resolution (it was in 60i mode). We thought something was "up" so we shot some rez charts (not me, one of the techs I work with ) and the XLH does indeed resolve more lines than the Varicam. Not too shocking really as the Vari is 960X720 native... ash =o)

August 7th, 2006, 06:42 PM	#43
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	My sentiments exactly, Mark. I was excited about the F350 too until I realized it was shooting HDV 4:2:0. Bigger, better chips with more res but same HDV workflow issues. That IS the $30k question: which "big" camera is the best way to go? HPC2000 looks good on specs, but no VFR mode. Sucks.