How long until a 32 Gig P2 card?
 

Any "word on the street" as to when we'll be getting something of 32 Gig size (or bigger)?

Panasonic said that they estimate that they can double the size every year. So we have 8GB now...next summer they will have 16GB, then summer 2008 should be the target for 32GB.

Estimated.

Wow. Guess I'll wait a few years then!

While Panasonic has made no official announcements, they were hinting around NAB that 16GB cards will be out later this year. Honestly, I can't figure out why they're not available now, 4GB SD memory (even the zero-defect, super tested, high grade chips they claim to use in P2 cards) are now very commonly available.

As for the 32GB cards, who can say... It would take 8GB SD chips to create one and so far, 8GB chips have only been demonstrated at trade shows by a couple manufacturers. If I had to guess, I'll say we'll see 16GB cards this fall sometime and 32GB cards sometime next summer. But I've been wrong before...

why can't they just make a 32g card? Is it some new science? Maybe they just want to nickel and dime everyone. Get your 8g card, now get your 16g card, then the 32,,,

I think there's a little bit of that philosophy involved. But with current P2 internal design, it revolves around 4 SD chips connected via a multichannel, interleaved memory controller (just like a RAID-0 disk stripe or multichannel RAM in your desktop computer). There currently is no option available for 8GB SD chips, which is what would be required to make a 32GB card... Sure, some 8 and 16 GB SD prototypes have been demoed at trade shows, but so far manufacturers like Samsung have not started actual production. We're limited to 4GB chips.

That being said, there is absolutely no reason why 16GB P2 cards are not available right now other than Panasonic trying to milk the 8GB P2 cow for all it's worth. Sales quantities on P2 cards are still relatively low compared to most memory card devices. There's a good bet that they had to commit to a certain amount of 8GB and 4GB card production in order to maintain their target price. Perhaps they're trying to exhaust some of that production supply before they jump onto a new production format. OTOH, changes from 8GB to 16GB could theoretically be made right on the assembly line with only a very minor firmware change and a substitution of 4GB SD chips for the 2GB ones. So I stand by what I've initially said... There's absolutely no reason why 16GB cards are not available now.

P2 cards are not made from just any SD cards, they are the highest of high end and are much more expensive and have much smaller production runs.

The bigger part of the problem, is that they cant even keep up with demand for 8gb P2 cards at an INSANE price. Why would they even bother to release a 16gb card when all it would do is kill the market for a card they cant keep in stock?

I am an HVX owner and I do NOT like the P2 media. The price is artificially inflated for a destructive media that IMHO is doomed to be replaced in the near future... we'll see...



ash =o)

"Destructive media"... what do you mean?

I suspect that whilst the media itself does not destruct ("Mission Impossible" style) the system is only at all viable (at least for some) if the data is transferred from the cards soon after shooting for the cards to be erased and reused.

And .... do the SD cards used still have to be "the highest of high end" anymore? The "high end" of SD cards is now so much higher than it was at P2s conception (good enough for each to record video in its own right) that maybe the very best SD cards are no longer necessary?

My own speculation would be that the HVX200 is likely to be the first and last prosumer camera to use P2, future evolutions much more likely to be SD, maybe CF, based. P2 may last longer for future 2/3" models, but here the demand is more likely to be for many smaller cheaper cards than one expensive big one.

With five slots on the camera, 4 8GB cards is far more versatile than a single 32GB one. With the forthcoming AVC-Intra codec (50Mbs) that is about 80 minutes total run time for 5 8GB cards, and 16 minutes per card. That may be more than enough to record an interview etc on, which can then be fed or edited elsewhere whilst shooting continues on the remaining cards, a flexibility that putting all your eggs in the single 32GB card wouldn't allow.

more than likely, we'll see P2 remain, however teh codec used wont be as intense as DVCproHD
MP4 was he latest and greatest deal made between Sony and Pana, and both manufacturers have taken it on board.

IMO, i see HDV being "interim" formats until a standard (like DV) is taken onboard by everyone. I see M2t as being the chick u pick up after u get out of a long term relationship. Hot, sexy, does everything u wanted your ex to do, but has no real depth and u can easily see her flaws without looking too hard. Once teh excitement is gone, those flaws become apparent and eventually become the bane of your existance... until the new girl comes along who really wipes u off ur feet...
I like that analogy.. lol but its true... thats what HDV is at this time. DVCProHD, is like the girl u always wanted to have. Another hot and sexy number, but this girl is the shiznit.. the one that makes ur head turn and the one that all ur mates hate u for... U got her now though, and u can mess around with her and have some really REALLY good times with her, but her maintenance is just too much for u to hang onto. Shes obsessive.. requires much maintenance and always in need of attention...
How sustainable she is who knows, but for most of the DVX users out there who are wanting to upgrade, she isnt sustainable at all..

Destructive means, it is not a master, just a temp storage. 32 minutes of temp storage for $2500+? Any money you save on buying tape is wasted on advanced back-up and the time to do so.

IMHO, better compression is for delivery and consumers. More compression means more issues in post, noise, artifacts, etc. I think the move in the professional realm will be toward uncompressed, just as photographers went to RAW. I personally have ZERO interest in acquisition in a more compressed format. We are just waiting for the storage tech to get cheaper, bigger and more robust.



ash =o)

Of course, nobody knows for certain one way or the other, but my 2 cents is that I seriously doubt the HVX is the first and last sub-$10k body to use P2. There's no way Panasonic would have invested the millions in creating the form factor only to abandon it in the next HVX-type iteration.

The P2 format itself certainly won't go away either, too much money in major players like Apple, Avid and others have been spent on making it part of the digi-workflow options, just as HDV has.

That other, equally robust, larger and more versatile media is on the horizon tells me that P2 may migrate to another medium for recording such as SD or CF (which would make sense since just about everybody has abandoned the PCMCIA interface), the P2 format won't go away anytime soon.

Sorry Robert, I don't follow that, unless by reference to "P2" you are really meaning "recording of video onto solid state memory". Surely P2 IS defined by the PCMCIA interface, and is rival to SD or CF?

If you mean that recording of video onto solid state memory will tend to migrate onto SD or CF instead of P2, then I'd agree that seems likely, just as AVC based codecs are likely to oust HDV and DVCPRO HD in future equipment. Quite possibly the next generation.

Panasonic may not want to move away from P2, but if other manufacturers bring out product doing the same job much more cheaply using such as CF or SD, then sticking with P2 would put them at a huge market disadvantage unless the cost per GB of P2 can be brought down to match. I see it more likely they will just use the cheaper memory.

P2 isn't rival to a Secure Digital card... P2 *is* a Secure Digital card. Four of them together, to be exact.

Currently neither a single SD card nor a single CF card can write 100mbps like P2 can.

I don't think AVC Intra will be an immediate replacement for P2 DVCPRO HD.

Together with extra electronics, a PCMCIA "wrapper", and ...... a big price premium! Just compare the difference in price between 4 2GB SD cards and a single 8GB P2 card.

Which is why I shall be very happy to see solid state video recording move onto SD/CF and P2 relegated to history.
Not true anymore. See http://www.sandisk.com/Products/Item...Flash_8GB.aspx . An 8GB CF with GUARANTEED read/write speeds of 20MBs - or 160Mbits/sec, well enough for DVCPRO HD, let alone the up and coming AVC formats.

There's much more to a P2 card than just those four SD cards; hence the difference in price.

To suggest that a P2 card as "only" an array of four SD cards is to purposefully obfuscate the issue.

Besides, a P2 card is a business expense; why is the cost even an issue. Only a handful are needed and if they haven't paid for themselves within a month or two then something's wrong with your business model.

P2 is without question the single least expensive way to buy into the DVCPRO HD format.

Unless you count direct to disk shooting... DVCproHD tape drives are upwards of $15k for just the tape drive mechanism alone. I think P2 is fine for some apps. I use it for music videos where it is perfect. For docs or anything archival, it just doesnt fly... for me anyway...



ash =o)

I've given up on trying to promote that very concept. It seems that so many people try to associate the P2 costs with other forms of storage or media. My HVX paid for itself and all of my P2 cards (2 4GB and 2 8GB) with the very first job I used it for. I probably will pass on 16GB cards as I truly have no use for them. Now, 32GB cards would be very nice as two of them would kick the camera up a notch to where it could be used underwater (did I actually just think of doing that?) or in other long-form situations I occasionally encounter. But FWIW, I'm at about 200 hours on my HVX right now and with recent drops in HDD and digital tape prices, I can archive DVCPROHD @ 100Mbps at about 80% the cost per minute of video vs. simply shooting miniDV tape.

What I find to be extremely odd is that so many of the critics and naysayers do not even own an HVX and/or any P2 media. Obviously it doesn't work for them (or they think it won't) or there are other issues holding them back. The HVX and P2 media in its current form work perfectly for the jobs they are intended for. ...That's ENG and and film production. Barry covers this very well in is new HVX book... Now for long-form work, that may be a different story, but I think we often have too many people around here trying to make the HVX into something it's not.

Even for direct-to-disk recording, the P2 camera by itself is still the (now even more affordable without the cards) least expensive way to buy into the DVCPRO HD format. It's the least expensive way to buy into it, but if all you need to do is shoot, then rental might still the most affordable option, depending on the scope of the project of course.

There are a wide variety of archival options for P2, but this already has been covered in this forum extensively.

But DVCPROHD tape decks shouldn't even be a consideration or an issue. The only purpose to even having one is if you need to deliver an actual DVCPRO tape to a broadcaster and even then, there's usually other alternatives. ...Some things are cheaper to rent or to let another service provider do a conversion for you. OTOH, for some who work with the tape format regularly and have a need for it, $15K may just be a necessary expense, just like any other tool or piece ofequiment to get the job done.

Currently there are other more sensible solutions vs. a DVCPROHD deck. Like a compact notebook. Even a 1U rackmount PC or SFF desktop is probably more compact than any DVCPROHD deck offerings and will record a lot more video and do ita heck of a lot cheaper. I can build a competent PC to do the job and equip it with Edius for capture software and all for less than $2K.

Wow, thats what I need for my Nikon D200. 4 gigs is not enough when doing high-res timelapse.

Sadly this is all too common, and the unfortunate fact that it happens here is a reflection on my admittedly poor management of this forum. While I can't change hopelessly closed minds, I would like to *strongly* urge these people to please, please, please stay out of this board and find something more productive to do with their time.

My own point was that P2 takes the DVCPRO HD deck out of the neccessary category and puts it into the only-as-you-need-it rental category. Without P2, the only way to shoot DVCPRO HD is with a $60,000 tape-based camera package, and you've got to have a $20,000 deck to go with it.

If that remark is aimed at me then can I point out that I stated "Together with extra electronics, a PCMCIA "wrapper", and ...... a big price premium!" after you had posted "P2 *is* a Secure Digital card. Four of them together, to be exact." Hence I don't see how I can be charged with implying that a P2 card is "only" an array of four SD cards.

There indeed is much more to a P2 card than the SD cards, but whilst it was initially essential, advances in memory technology now make it unnecessary. If the 8GB CF card I posted the link to is as able to do the job (of recording DVCPRO HD), then why pay several times more for an 8GB P2 card?
Or other people have different business models to yourself, and would require far more than a handful of cards to make solid state acquisition viable. Like me, they may not be simple "closed mind naysayers", but well understand the attraction of solid state acquisition, want to go down that path, but need the costs to come down significantly before making the jump. That would certainly be true if a large broadcaster wished to go down the solid state route.

Even for those for whom P2 is viable now, wouldn't they prefer to be able to spend less on cards, if the alternative is equally suitable for purpose? Surely all businesses try to keep all their expenses down?

This is, of course, all trying to predict the future. If you want a camera NOW, and want to record via solid state NOW then P2 is indeed the here and now solution. Just don't let that blind us to the potential big improvements that are likely coming along.

Lost it's way
 

If I remember correctly, the DVinfo.net mission is to share timely advice, tech tips, products reviews (from a users perspective, not a "wish I had one" or, "I think it's a bad idea" angle) and of course, share troubleshooting techniques and new methods of workflow.

Threads like this, that are nothing more than speculation, mild ranting and purposeful mis-information defeat the nature of the forum and do little to nothing in advancing good information sharing.

I too, occasionally get sucked into theoretical and academic debates, but mainly to help clear the air of mis-information or emotionally charged info that ruins an otherwise honest attempt by the original poster to gather data.

Since measurebators and debators abound on all forums I think there should be a directed and automatic method for separating the threads that are designed to help those of us who actually have good information to share or, need information to aid us in our work - from the un-ending debates and measurebating.

To that end, I have some suggestions, both for the forum members and, Chris, the owner:

1. If you want to start a thread that is theoretical, hypothetical or of the "what if" type then lets create a category that supports just those threads and you can post and debate to your hearts desire and not disturb the flow of the other threads.

2. If you make a post of the above mentioned types in a "regular" category, then it either A) Gets automatically deleted by the moderator or; B) Get's moved to the debating category - subject to the moderators discretion.

3. If a "debate/hypothetical" category isn't appropriate for this forum (and personally I think there are other forums better suited to those type of postings) then let's simply not allow the post to remain on the site and delete them.

For example, this thread was started by what can be considered and honest question: "When will (xxx) become available/created/be modified.. etc." The simple answer is: Nobody knows. Period. End of story - that is unless the actual manufacturer steps in and answers the question directly - which most often they do not. Anything more than that becomes speculation, guess-work and crystal-ball predictions and those posting should be deleted from the thread and the thread locked.

However, if the question had been: "How do I get my (xxx) to work properly...", that's a whole different thread and, is exactly the type this forum was designed for.

So, if we're going to keep the spirit of this forum alive and, move forward with what makes this forum worthwhile, timely and professional in it's manner then it's time for some altered thread management by both users and moderators.

One last thought: This forum is free to it's users; use it respectfully.

Robert, you're making entirely too much sense to be hanging around here. :P

I own an HVX and two 4GB P2 cards. I used one on shoots well before I owned one. I use just about every camera imaginable on every scenario imaginable. I use it mainly for music videos, where the P2 workflow is perfect. I also use it in DV mode quite a bit. I cannot imagine shooting a doc on P2 and at this point, even interviews I would shun. Maybe I am in a unique situation but I often have projects that request changes months and even years later. I need source tapes. The other HUGE issue, is that you cannot capture P2 at a low rez and rebuild an uncompressed edit which is the workflow many use. Everything must be ingested at full rez and have a redundant RAID5 back-up. Having an external back-up is just not good enough. I lost an entire project when 2 RAIDs died (RAID 0s) that were backed up weekly. Come to find, the problem is all too common. P2 is great for some things but requires too many compromises for others... at least IMO.



ash =o)

Could be. The hope is "too much sense" will become contagious and the forum will clear itself up.

I started filming my first music video with the HVX last night, I have only 1 4GB card, but I found it worked quite nicely.

I could put 10 minutes of HD footage on it, and when I ran low on space, dumped the footage to my powerbook w/ an external HDD attached.

When I got home, I made a copy of the P2 footage (P2 1 through P2 6) on my PC, then burned 2 DVDs of each card image. So I have a copy of the footage on my traveling external, one on my PC internal, a DVD which goes in storage, and another DVD which goes to my editor, who will make another copy on his hard drive.

Although this isn't an ideal solution, i like the 4 gig card because my single-layer dvd burner can burn a card to a DVD, and they'll hold for a few years at least on DVD. When I can upgrade to an 8 gig card, I'll get a dual-layer DVD burner, more external hard drives and storage space for my older hard drives.

Large-scale solid state is just around the corner (It was only a few years ago I remember getting my first 1 gigabyte platter-based HDD and thinking how big it was), so it's only a matter of storing it long enough to make it to a much more convenient and safe storage medium.

I don't know if P2 is the future or future-proof, but one of the reasons that I got this camera (sold my car for it, fresh out of college) was because the expanding solid-state memory market will mean that my camera will be relevant for years, it is a camera that has the potential to keep growing in usefulness over the years, instead of a camera that is released and immediately begins to obsolete itself.

My quip for the day: If you need a 32GB P2 card, you bought the wrong camera for your application.

Why would you say that?

I had written: "My quip for the day: If you need a 32GB P2 card, you bought the wrong camera for your application."

First off, I don't currently own an HVX, but would like to. I like the P2 workflow, and I believe that it would be great for my application, which centers on short, pre-planned shots. Lighter compression, intra-frame coding and variable frame rates including 24p appeal to me.

However, If I were doing long, unplanned shots, I would look at an HDV solution. You don't want to miss "the big moment" while swapping cards. The lack of an HD tape solution and the small size of the current P2 cards hobbles the camera for long takes in the field.

Sure, you can record to a FireStore, but that doesn't allow variable frame rates and adds extra size and weight. When the CinePorter is available, longer recording times with variable rates are possible, but again with size, weight and battery penalties.

Once 32GB P2 cards are available, the HVX will be excellent for longer, unplanned takes - though the workflow advantage is a bit lost on me. I like the idea of recording my takes, and quickly reviewing the results with quick edits as insurance before tearing down the set and lights. For long take applications, the quick review with edits thing isn't as critical.

But all this is moot for me. My application is really well suited to the HVX. It's at or near the top of my list for my next camera purchase - but only because it matches my applicaiton so well.

8GB SD card Released
 

Fremont, California, August 31st, 2006 Pretec, the world record keeper of highest capacity flash memory cards of CF card (12GB, March 2004), USB Flash Drive (8GB, January 2005), SD card (4GB, July 2005) and MMC (4GB, September 2005), has now released 8GB SD card, the highest capacity SD card in the world.


Sounds like those 32gig cards are right around the corner...

I hope it's true, but I just spoke with a Panasonic salesman and he said the 16 gig cards that were due at the end of this year have now been pushed back to 2nd quarter 2007. Ugh. I hope he's wrong.

>The bigger part of the problem, is that they cant even keep up with demand >for 8gb P2 cards at an INSANE price. Why would they even bother to >release a 16gb card when all it would do is kill the market for a card they >cant keep in stock?

Because it reduces the market for their camcorder. I am looking for an HDV camcorder to replace my Sony VX2000. P2 store is clearly on the CON list, both in price and recording duration. I can't believe that Panasonic decided the money was in selling commodity flash cards in a proprietary package. The P2 Store is ridiculous as well.

P2 storages definitely makes me look elsewhere. I can't believe that Panasonic couldn't sell a USB or Firewire battery-backed hard drive unit in which you can add your own hard drive or two, if the bandwidth is needed.

Sorry about my last post. I'm sure Panasonic has found some reliability issues with external Firewire drives. Though, it would have been cool to have cheaper storage media that isn't controlled and priced by Panasonic.