New MacBook Pro
 

Apple announced their first Intel-based laptop, the MacBook Pro. Seems to be positioned between the current IBook and Powerbook in features. Dual-core Intel processor benchmarks at 2 to 6 times faster than current 1.67GHZ Powerbook, twice a G5. Screen resolution is a less than the current 17" but there is support for the 30" Cinema Display at higher resolution. There is a SINGLE firewire 400 connector, no firewire 800. Two USB 2.0 connectors, each with faster bandwidth than the firewire. Also there is an Expresscard/34 slot instead of a PCMCIA slot. This brings up some questions about how to connect to a P2 Card. FCP Will be shipping as a native Intel app in March.

Placed my order at 11:48 PST, 4 minutes after the announcement.

Doh! I guess the PowerBooks will be valued for quite some time. Of course there's always hookin' up to the HVX200 via Firewire.

"This brings up some questions about how to connect to a P2 Card."

And a bloody good question it is, Bill ....

Adapter
 

Found one announced adapter for Expresscard/34 to PCMCIA. Doesn't appear to be shipping yet, but at least seems like this and more will come.

http://www.duel-systems.com/products/adapters.aspx

Good sleuthing, Bill. Was looking around myself ...

Yeah - there'll be other alternatives. Just a little concerned that we won't have the option of running dual channel Raid configs. Like we can now with fw 800.

It''ll all shake down, I know. In the meantime I'm hanging on to my G4 pb for a while longer it looks like.

edit: I guess the massive bandwidth on the new bus will allow us to run a fw 800 raid 0 on an existing 2 port PCMCIA card /Express adapter ? Thereby negating the need for a second bus.
anyone ...

PCMCIA is dead Expresscard/34 is the new standard, panasonic must have known that coming into the game so I'm sure there will be adapters and stuff like that.

Hmmm...this IS a little troubling. I guess we'll have to use the HVX as a "deck" into the Powerbook. No more FW 800, that also sucks. I assume you could get an adapter for the Expresscard/34 that allows a second FW bus? What to do with my G-Raid....

Peter

But this is just the iBook update. Hopefully the intel Powerbooks will pack more of a punch.

MacWorld seems to think the MacBook Pro is the replacement for the PowerBook, not the iBook. You wouldn't think they would use the "pro" name for a lower performance product (think: Final Cut Pro vs. Final Cut Express)...

http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/edit...reax/index.php

firewire theory
 

I suspect that this is firewire's last gasp at Apple. They appear to have been more committed to the connector than to the interface on the PowerMac Pro. Since Firewire 800 is both smaller and faster and can be used with an 800 to 400 cable, it looks like they preserved a single Firewire 400 connector just to remain compatible for another generation. The fact that the USB 2.0 connectors are actually faster makes me think that these may be the best way to connect to the HVX, rather than Firewire. The HVX manual only says that Firewire is not guaranteed to work with PCs and the USB is not guaranteed to work with Macs.

As for what it's replacing, the PoweMac looks alot like a Powerbook except for the missing Firewire and smaller screen. As a guess, I'd speculate that the brighter screen they are using may not be available in a 17", or they've found that the smaller size is the marketing sweet spot and they are consolidating the line prior to some other move.

I agree with Boyd, and MacWorld. The Macbook Pro IS the new Powerbook. The lack of any faster mobile Intel processors out there should be evidence of this. The only thing I can imagine coming from Apple would be a specially optimized "media center" edition of the MacBook--a 17" model with FW800, etc. Would it be possible to put the 2ghz Intel chip in a notebook like this? I can see this as being the mobile HD editing station, even though the 15" will be able to handle this as well. if Apple really is giving up on Firewire, that would be a shame.

Peter

Wow, not even close in my testing. Theoretically it's faster, but I just don't see it in RW use.

I doubt that Macs will ever lose FW400. Too many digital cameras out there and Apple still gives away iMovie.

USB 2 is not faster than Firewire 400
 

Firewire 400 kicks USB 2's ass in any test of sustained throughput. This is well documented. USB was designed for keyboards, mice, and modems, and that's where it should have stayed. Intel dragged its feet on integrating Firewire into motherboards, and has pushed crummy USB as a substitute.

As usual, Apple condemned Firewire from the start with high licensing fees (reportedly). By the time they finally wised up (I think the term "Firewire" is freely usable now, gee thanks), the public had been duped with USB.

And Sony introduced the asinine four-pin Firewire connector, which is what you'll find on most laptops today. Yes, it's good that many Windows laptops come with Firewire, but unbelievably stupid to have unpowered ports. Duh, what good is your PORTABLE hard drive on the plane when you have to lug an AC adapter around? Why did they think people bought a laptop in the first place?

And finally, Apple compounds the mistakes by introducing a totally different connector for Firewire 800. Apparently they weren't paying attention when SCSI deteriorated into a miasma of connectors that changed every year and thoroughly pissed everybody off. And to top it all, what does the public see? USB goes to USB 2 with the exact same connector, no problem.

The failure of Firewire will be a sad end to Apple's best invention.

FW800 is not part of the Intel motherboard chipset on the new MacBooks.

In addition, it appears there were no further FW800 implementation other than hard drives.

I'm not an engineer but obviously there is a difference between the protocols in FW400 and Fw800 - hence the difference plugs. Same thing happened with SCSI.

That's a bunch of bunk. It's true that many USB2 devices have lackluster performance, but it's just that - the devices. A properly implemented USB2 interface with a properly capable device can sustain a faster data stream than whatisavailable with FW400. USB2 (if properly implemented) also has lower latency and can handle multiple streams a whole lot better due to its serialized nature.

Intel has nothing to do with pushing USB over Firewire. In fact, Intel was the first PC chipset maker to implement Firewire on OEM and Intel branded mainboards and these mainboards were available *BEFORE* Apple shipped a firewire capable system. Sony had i-Link (their marketing name for firewire) capable systems on the market within 30 days of Apple's first firewire equipped systems. I don't really see any evidence of slow adoption of firewire in the PC world. Yes, it's true that it took an extra year or so for bargain PCs to catch up and offer it, but that has nothing to do with Intel not pushing it or anything other than bargain PC makers looking to save a buck anywhere they could.

FW800 has never really caught on. There are better alternatives out there and it suffers from all the same restrictions that FW400 does. Outside of multi-drive RAID boxes, there really isn't any FW800 offerings that can use bandwidth in excess of FW400. And for the same money or even just a slight bit more, an eSATA or SCSI RAID is far more capable and standard across the computing world. FW800? Why?

Also not true. Firewire is the IEEE1394 standard, which is an open standard governed by the IEEE "Firewire Consortium". Apple is a key member of this group, but has no direct responsibility or blame to assign in terms of licensing fees. Firewire is dirt cheap to implement... Cheaper than USB actually.

Where do you get this crap? Sony *DID NOT* *DID NOT* *DID NOT* introduce an "asinine" four-pin connector. The 4-pin connector is the standard firewire connector while the 6-pin is the extended version which also adds power. It's true that the 6-pin connector is more popular on desktops and powered hubs, but on portable systems and downstream powered devices (like our DV cameras), the 4-pin is the way to go since we don't need to draw more power out of our notebooks or other equipment to run our devices too. Powering an external HDD is more a novelty than a functional solution. And I have yet to see a portable HDD solution that wasn't served better with its own AC adapter and/or battery pack vs. being powered from a USB or Firewire bus.

Wow... Apple didn't choose the connector for FW800. At least not on their own, once agin, they're a part of the standards committee, not the standards committee. Unfortunately, the way Firewire works, it can't run FW800 over a 4-pin connector --- new connector required. USB is a scaleable, serial implementation. USB2 and the currently under review USB3 standard will all use the same connector. Intelligent USB hubs can intermix USB/2/3 devices on the same root controller. Firewire does not have this ability. Connecting a FW800 device requires a connector adapter to connect to a FW400 bus and vice versa. If connecting a FW400 device to a FW800 bus with other FW800 devices, all FW800 devices on the bus must step down to FW400 operation.

SCSI connectors changed with the continued evolution of the SCSI standard. And they were all backwards compatible. If you understand how SCSI works and how to properly attach your devices, this is/was a non-issue. Sorry, but UWSCSI-3 just can't run on a 25pin SCSI-I connector.

Sigh... You actually believe Apple invented firewire?

from the book Firewire Filmmaking:

"Although technically Apple is the legal guardian of this closely protected property, six of the eight key patents issued for FireWire technology cite Michael D. Jonas Teener as the chief architect responsible for their advancements. In fact, when Teener left National Semiconductor in 1986 to join Apple Computer, he had already begun early efforts on a low-cost technology to connect hard drives to one another."

"Working nights and weekends on his pet project, Teener became the founding chair and editor of the international standard (IEEE-1394), a blueprint for the exchange of high-bandwidth digital audio. He was also instrumental in recruiting ideas from other innovators and in expanding the ambitions of the multimedia technology to include video streaming."

"As the technical lead during the years when Apple was suffering through layoffs and dozens of threatened cancellations, Teener had to fight to keep the FireWire project alive for nearly a decade. When Steve Jobs returned to Apple in 1996, Teener urged him to implement the technology on all Macintosh computers, essentially kick-starting the desktop video revolution."

In all honesty, I have never found USB 2 to be faster than firewire.
I have a USB2/firewire 400 drive and firewire is always faster, whether using Mac or PC.
In terms of firewire800, it's the one thing I'm disappointed about because I use it and notice a speed improvement when using it on Mac - I had a firewire800 card on my PC and it wasn't as much of a difference as there was when I put that card in my G5 - big difference.
Would it be possible for Apple to create a card that would plug into the express 34 slot?

Belkin had some protypes at MWSF under class.

Express/34 is a better implementation than Cardbus, and I really see its potential for better throughput, etc

This is the new "Powerbook", but I guarantee there will be more. I believe they wanted to get something out at the same time with the Yonah announcements. Although I love FW800, on a large scale, Apple didn't think that it caught on the way it hoped. Also, Express/34 is the new card format, and will have more stuff available(Adapters, etc.).

Although USB2 Has a higher "Attainable" rate to FW400(480 to 400), it does not sustain it, as does FW400. The simplest test is to compare video conferencing with FW and USB2. It's night and day.

I wouldn't recommend the MacBookPro for video editing. There were a lot of compromises made. So many, that to me the Mac Book Pro is simply an Intel ibook with an aluminum chassis. Instead they add an IR port, an isight, and a remote control is added. Nothing pro about it. It's a portable iMac.

One firewire 400 port, no s-video out, no modem, lower video resolution, combined with the simultaneous release of the iMac makes me think that they are sharing similar motherboards. An IR port, an isight, and a remote control is added. Nothing pro about it. It's a portable iMac.


They also went from a 65 W power supply to an 85 watt power supply and a bigger battery. So i think you're gonna get a hot laptop with low battery life.

But time will tell. Until then I hope it's a flop so Apple can get it's act together and sell us something we can actually use.

There is S video out with the supplied adapter. Don't know the reason why a modem is essential for video editing, but may be I missed something. Resolution is minus 60 horizontally, so I don't see that as an issue.

However, I agree that no laptop is really a good solution for editing particularly on a single firewire bus laptop.

In this respect, the new one is no different than any of the old ones. FW800 ports on single bus firewire laptops have built in potential for DF issues. Many ports but one bus means shared throughput especially with decks or camera are connected

I don't think you can build a laptop without a second internal hard drive, and expect to be able to use to editing professionally.

but that's my view only

"I don't think you can build a laptop without a second internal hard drive, and expect to be able to use to editing professionally."

I edited my entire 72 min. feature documentary on my 15" 1.25Ghz Powerbook. It's playing at Sundance next week.

Sorry if this has been asked before, but when do you think we can expect to see FW800 adapter cards for Express/34? Am I correct in assuming that an external drive connected to this card would be on a separate bus from the FW400 port?

If you guys don't think this is Apple's "video editing" laptop, then what is? The fastest Intel mobile processor is, what, 2ghz? Do you think they'll get this into a mobile editing workstation, like a new 17"? Curious to hear the opinion of our technical experts on this thread (of which I am certainly not one). Mostly I'm debating whether I can get rid of my 15" and get one of the new ones and know I'm not going to regret the decision. Thanks as always guys,

Peter

I can easily see rough cut or fast turn editing remotely on a MacBook Pro. I bet it's a treat. Would you want it as your full blown editing workstation? No. But that's old news regarding ANY portable computer.

If you were waiting and needing to purchase a PowerBook, it's rather obvious the best value will eventually be the MacBook Pro, once the software is ready. Furthermore, I'll bet we'll be seeing 3rd party PCMCIA, SATA, and FW800 connectivity via Express slot soon. Boom.

The biggest issue will always be with anyone who doesn't prefer the bleeding edge, and can't hang with the faith, wait, risk, and experimentation factors.

More grist for the mill...

http://engadget.com/2006/01/12/did-s...-intel-models/

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1460

http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/cultofm...try_id=1385976

It's great that you were able to work that way, but a single firewire bus is an issue with professional editing. So is using firewire drives to edit professionally. It's been done, but shared bandwidth is problem.

Yep, an Express/34 firewire card creates a second bus just as a PC Card firewire card does the same.

Apple has never had a "video editing " laptop. How is that possible with 5400 rpm internal drives as standard, and lack of a second dedicated bus for firewire or SATA capture.

Your feature obviously must been shot in DV. That's great, and I hope you win, but I still believe you need a dedicated bus to capture and one for previews to monitor and deck.

=+=+=+=+=+=

best wishes

david

To to be clear, the firewire limitations exists on all Macs. Every model (Dual G5, etc) - they all have a single firewire bus, even though there are multiple connectors. FW800 and FW400 share the same single bus. Now I'm not 100% certain of the quad, but I'm pretty sure it's that way also. Of course you can add firewire PCI cards to the desktop machines for additional ports. I added a FW PC card to my Powerbook for something like $30 or $40 and never saw any problems capturing and using an external drive while editing.

The G4 laptops are far from ideal for video editing, but they do work when used with an external drive and firewire PC card.

We're not disagreeing. I'd love to edit on a laptop, but I hate single bus anything's.

I just wish there was a second hard drive on a second SATA bus.

that would be nice.

The supplied adapter is DVI ->VGA only. I suppose you can get a DVI to HDMI converter from a third party.

My point is, that apart from the processor boost and possibly updated video chip, the MacBook is worse for editing than the previous gen Powerbook.
But s-video out, an extra firebus port for non chainable FW devices, a PC card slot for your p2 card, 60 pixels (hey that's a really thin palette window or a dock!)- are important features for an editing notebook. Features sacrificed for a remote control. Also the DVD burner is slower and missing DL capability.

I adore my Al-book as a portable notebook for fieldwork. But there are too many things missing in the MacBook to make it an "upgrade" except for processing speed.

Well clearly you shouldn't buy one if that's the way you feel. But others may find that it suits their needs. And no doubt there will be something better coming out in the future.

On 1, I disagree. It still only one bus, and having more ports on the same bus dilutes throughput, especially with FCP 5.

On 2, we agree, but Express/34 is a better protocol. As cards proliferate, it will be better in my view.

On 3, we disagree. I want a slower burner, not a faster one. I struggle to burn at 2x because so often it affects compatibility with many set tops.

But as you say, don't fix it if it ain't broke

USB2 vs Firewire 400
 

Just to clear up the USB2 vs Firewire 400 debate...

USB2 is 480mbps and Firewire 400 is, well 400 mbps. USB2 is slower in performance, however, because of the protocol. USB2 requires that data packets for each bit be sent in both directions, that means roughly twice the amount of info is being passed through at any given time, thus making USB2's speed roughly half the total 480mbps bandwidth it has to play with.

On most devices, this is not noticable because rarely does any single device take up the full bandwidth of either. Hard drives, however, can take up more than 240mbps easily (half the usb2 bandwidth) thus taking a performance hit when compared to Firewire 400.

I'm not anti-Apple in any way (at least I don't care for them any less than Intel or Microsoft or Starbucks...), but this is the kind of disinformation that really does not help anyone and serves no real purpose. It probably does more harm in the long run. I've never read that book and from what you have quoted, I wouldn't want to.

If you want the complete history of Firewire and the evolution of the standard, why not just head on over to standards.ieee.org and take a look for yourself? You might find that it's nowhere near as cut and dry or simple as that book makes it seem and no, Steve Jobs isn't God and no, Apple didn't invent Firewire. Apple, along with a handful of other like-minded companies, coordinated with the IEEE to form a standards committee -- other key members included Intel, Sony, Philips, Hitachi, etc.. Apple has never even bothered to explore or implement many of the IEEE-1394 variations such as 1394C (Firewire over UTP cable) or multichannel implementations, etc.. Many of these have found their way into industrial applications.

If you still don't want to believe me, that's fine. There are thousands of people out there that believe Apple invented Firewire or that Apple invented the graphical user interface with application windows and icons (sorry, that was Xerox)...

USB is a full-duplex protocol and data can be sent upstream simultaneously with downstream data. I'm not going to argue that I haven't seen a performance hit with USB2 devices, because I have. I have also used some USB2 devices that perform better in USB2 mode than they do with firewire or vs. the firewire offering from the same manufacturer. It all comes down to implementation. The truth of the matter is that USB2 has superior bandwidth and the capability to offer lower latency and better data/bandwidth management than Firewire. The sad part of all this is that for some reason many manufacturers don't exploit these benefits and they slack off on their USB2 implementation. Equal blame (and perhaps more) can be assigned to chipset manufacturers and mainboard vendors - on both the PC and Mac side of the fence. So many use only 1 or 2 USB2 controller channels on their mainboards, yet they drive 4 to 8 root hubs from these. Seems like a good idea to add more USB2 ports to a system, right? Well, if you have 4 ports on your system via 4 root hubs tied to a single controller channel, then all 4 of those root hubs/ports have to share that 480mbps bandwidth. And while devices sitting on the bus (things like software keys, memory readers, printers, scanners, etc..), even when sitting idle are eating up data packets in the form of a status pulse.

...Very, very few hard drives on the market can come close to 240mbps (60MBytes/sec) bandwidth you reference. In fact, it usually takes two HDDs in a stripe set or similar arrangement to sustain a rate like that. If you're seeing a performance fall-off on an external HDD going from Firewire to USB2 then either your USB2 bus is heavily saturated to begin with or the system and/or the drive has a poorly implemented USB2 interface.

240mbps is only 30MB/sec, which hard drives frequently surpass. It even affects the rate at which your songs get uploaded to your iPod. When I got a new video iPod in which I was forced to use USB2 to sync to my powerbook, I noticed and immediate and significant data transfer rate hit.

Heh. Ooops... I guess I should wait until I'm not so tired before reading/posting. 30MB/sec is correct, sir. :)

More Info on Express/34
 

http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-01-13/#4996

Note the comment about FW800 adapters.

A FW800 adapter is a no-brainer in this case and I would be surprised if it's not available by the time the MacBook officially starts shipping or very soon after. I'm seriously confused as to why Apple didn't use the Express54 slot though. But an Express34 to external PCMCIA adapter should be an option at some point, although if card makers rush to release E34 versions of their cards, the need for the adapter would be minimal. It's probably more likely to see an E34 to external E54 adapter... Many peripherals like some of the current audio cards are already cramped in a standard PC card form factor and even protrude from systems a bit. It's going to be difficult and/or expensive for manufacturers to cram all that stuff into half the space they have it in now.

I think it's cause the Macbooks are an inch thick.

Yeah, I'm sure it's an issue of space. They only needed another 2cm of width though.