And there it is!

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09...umixdmcgh1.asp

Awesome, sounds super super cool!

-M

Highlights--

Some sort of stereo in, as they are selling an optional stereo mic accessory

1080p @24fp and 720p @60fps. Surprised only two modes but those are the ones I'd have picked.

Comes in Black and Red, but apparently not Blue. :-(

Seems to allow manual control over exposure while shooting.

No limit on how long you can shoot.

Full-HD (1920 × 1080) movies are output by the image sensor at 24p (NTSC)/25p (PAL), and recorded at 60i (NTSC)/50i (PAL). HD (1280 × 720) movies are output and recorded by the image sensor at 60p (NTSC)/50p (PAL).

How do you get 24p out of 60i?

Reverse the pulldown. This is how many cameras do it.

24p - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, has a stereo mic input- minijack. This really looks to be an indie film maker's dream come true, assuming the footage is good.

-M

It records "3:2 pulldown", which is something like this:

Field 1 (60) = Frame 1 (odd lines)
Field 2 (60) = Frame 1 (even lines)
Field 3 (60) = Frame 1 (odd lines)
Field 4 (60) = Frame 2 (even lines)
Field 5 (60) = Frame 2 (odd lines)

The NLE or converter program needs to recognize the cadence and jam the fields together to restore the 24p video:

Frame 1 = Field 1 (60) jammed with Field 2 (60)
Frame 2 = Field 5 (60) jammed with Field 4 (60)
and so on...

So... the new GH1 has 1080 24/25p, full control, mic input (hopefully with controllable gain and monitoring.)

Some of the questions that remain:
* How's the codec look?
* Can you control anything before the codec? (Like Canon's Picture Styles)
* How bad is the rolling shutter?
* How much video can we record in one clip?
* What's the data rate?
* How's the low light performance?
* What will the workflow be for the various NLEs?
* What shutter speeds are supported?

The panasonic mic they sell as an accessory has several buttons/switches on it. No word on monitoring, there doesn't seem to be a headphone jack.

Yes, you can, but its not clear how much.

We'll see. This camera has a different sensor than the G1, designed for "high output", so I think they have at least attempted to address the rolling shutter.

This camera models sole purpose is video, as the G1 already is out there. So, since it has a new sensor its reasonable to conclude that the point of that new sensor was to better produce video.

No limit but the size of your SDHC card.

Bit rate?
 

AVCHD in the PH mode on the HMC-150 is recorded at 21Mbps with the maximum variable rate at 24Mbps. Wonder what it is on this Lumix?

Can't wait for people to get their hands on this. Can't wait for pricing and availability?

Can't wait for some extensive reviews.

I'm a bit confused by the format choice of AVCHD and M-JPEG. I assume one will be better image quality than the other...Just have to wait and see.

Jon -- how does the PAL version work? Do you get 25p from 50i in the same way as some camcorders using "Segmented Progressive Frame" (SpF)?

Seems many of the stills features are carried over for video shooting. This could be a very serious contender.

Video Samples and Other Awesome Info
 

DMC-GH1 | PRODUCTS | LUMIX | Digital Camera | Panasonic Global

The video samples are teeny, but at least are something.

From what I can see, the rolling shutter seems pretty minimal. This is awesome news. Now I just want to see some full res footage!

-M

Here's a specifications chart
 

DMC-GH1 | PRODUCTS | LUMIX | Digital Camera | Panasonic Global

17 Mbps. Oh well:

"Full HD 1,920 x 1,080, 60i (sensor output is 24 fps) (FHD: 17 Mbps)"

I don't know much about four thirds cameras and lenses, but here are some of my initial thoughts:

1) Why don't they lock the exposure when shooting their demo footage? It's demo footage the world will judge your camera by, do it right for goodness sake.

2) It looks like they're giving you control over shutter speed and aperature so that's a plus right there.

3) The kit lens is only f4.0 to f5.8 so I'd hope you can get some faster lenses with this system.

4) Do the lenses have true manual focus rings? I'd hope so.

5) I don't like the highlight handling at all from that first clip I saw. I'll give it a pass since they mangled the thing by not locking exposure so I'll wait for better footage till I completely pass judgment.

6) Did nobody learn from Canon's brilliant marketing of the 5D MkII that great footage at the outset of a product launch generates buzz and leaves a lasting impression?

I'm sure there will be more thoughts as I keep my eye on this thing.

I think that should be OK. I would have preferred 24Mbps (I would have preferred it not be AVCHD)...

[QUOTE=Ethan Cooper;1021567]3) The kit lens is only f4.0 to f5.8 so I'd hope you can get some faster lenses with this system.
[quote]

Basically, you can mount any lens ever made to this camera. Well, exagerration, but there are Leica M mount converters out there, PL mount and Arri mount, C mount -- so all those movie lenses can be used. And converters for every 35mm Lens format in common use as well.

What do you mean by "true"? As in mechanically linked so it moves when the camera autofocuses? No. But you do have manual focus, you can turn AF off, and of course, you can use lots of manual focus lenses with adapters. (And the "fly by wire" focus of the G1 got good reviews.)

"The LUMIX DMC-GH1 concept goes much further than simply recording HD movies. Apart from the movie recording capability of conventional digital cameras, the DMC-GH1 also features a Creative Movie mode, which lets the user set the shutter speed and aperture manually to make even more impressive movies."

(Panasonic press release on dpreview)

seems someone has learned from Canon ;)

Things I do not understand:

Why did Panasonic do 24p into 60i pulldown? I understand the reasons for this when recording to TAPE, but when going to flash memory? That's just burning storage/recording time.

Disappointments:

Formats: Doesn't shoot 1920x1080i60 or 1920x1080p30.
I guess that's for next years models.

Bitrate: 17 Mbps instead of 24 Mbps, or higher, ala Canon 5D2
I guess that's for next years models.

Canon certainly demonstrated the bigger sensors+glass can put the bitrate to excellent use.

Now for someone, somewhere to post raw footage from this camera for evaluation.
It would be interesting to see how footage from this compares to Panny's own HMC-150.
That may be part of the reason it doesn't do a higher bitrate or a higher frame/field rate.
But that's pure speculation on my part.

I was kind of hoping Panasonic would screw up and have the Gh1 record at 24Mbps like the HMC150. I just don't think 17mbps is going to cut it for my needs. Now I am hoping that since Nikon dosen't have a professional video camera line to protect they will jump out from the pack with a high quality video codec camera.

I have the Canon 5d. I love its image making capability, but it would have been nice to have the fold out LCD this camera has.

Has anyone here groaning about 17 vs 24 bit even done a comparison before? The difference isn't that great, in fast action the extra bits help but it isn't day and night. Besides think of the price point and intended market. If it's video footage is at least as good as the D90 with less rolling shutter then at the price point it's already done it's job.

I have compared the two rates and I can see the difference in fast moving scenes which is what I shoot. I would have thought that at least one DSLR combo cam manufacturer would have tried to trump or meet the quality of the Canon 5D MarkII codec. The GH1 has a lot of great control features that the 5D does not, and is a definite improvement in that respect, but unless it can deliver a close or superior image to the 5d then I don't think it could be considered a professional piece of equipment. Combining the best features of the GH1 and 5D would be a real winner.

M-JPEG offers 720p30 which although less space efficient than AVCHD, is much easier to edit. The 1080i60 and 720p60 are going to need a minimum of a 2.66GHz QUAD core to playback smoothly.

Otherwise, you'll have to convert to an intermediate codec.

By the way, don't know how many AVCHD products support 720p60. Maybe none.

Removing 2-3 pulldown may not be supported by any AVCHD products. Of course, 60i can be edited even with 2-3 pulldown -- just not the best option.

PS: Also critical is what audio codec is used with M-JPEG. A lot of NLEs will not like M-JPEG with AC3. They want PCM. Bottom-line, with the ability set shutter-speed, 720p30 may be the best option. Of course, we still don't know the data-rate. I'll try to get sample on Weds.

Mark,

I wouldn't expect anyone to try and match the Canon 5D2 codec.
Reason? These are consumer market products, so expectations are going to be 24 Mbps, tops.

Canon, in pushing their codec to ~42 Mbps, is clearly playing in pro territory.

Because the camera puts out video over the HDMI port. So, I believe they do this so that they can send the same stream out the port as they are recording to flash. [/QUOTE]

I'm able to play back H.264 720/60p and 1080/60i on my 2.4Ghz Core2Duo. But maybe there are some dropped frames I'm not noticing.

As I understand it, the canons that shoot 24p record it as 60i as well, or some of them do. After conversion, you have the original 24p without loss of quality.

Well, 42Mbps MJPEG is probably about equal quality to 21Mbps H.264. So the 17MBps of this camera doesn't seem that much lower quality. (Am I right in thinking the 5D records video as MJPEG? Their site is vague.)

It's not considered a professional piece by anyone or even panasonic. Look at the marketing materials, look at the website. Who is this intended for? This thing is less than half the price. As it stands the 5DMK2 is barely a pro body in the first place, canon will be the first to tell you that, and it's video is largely a novelty feature, they haven't designed it for a proper production format or broadcast or what have you.

Remember these are the all among the first of their kind, none of these are supposed to be true hybrids yet. You might be expecting too much.

If I remember correctly -- the Canon uses M-JPEG. So 42Mbps isn't pushing the bit-rate at all. That's low for HD M-JPEG.

The Canon 5D Mark II uses 42 Mbps MPEG-4 in an Apple QuickTime MOV wrapper.

See here, second paragraph.

Canon Digital Learning Center - EOS 5D Mark II: Movie Mode Basics

So much for my memory. :)

But now I understand why there are reports of crashing while editing long clips. I don't know of any other device that pushes long GOP MPEG-4 to such high bit rates.

Of course, Canon has to use a super high bit rate because it seems they are using the now out of date MPEG-4 codec rather than the far more efficient h.264/AVC codec. Strange choice.

According to Apple, H.264 is MPEG-4 part 10. So H.264 is actually a subset of MPEG-4.
See here:

Apple - QuickTime - Technologies - MPEG-4

So it could very well be that what Canon is identifying as MPEG-4 is H.264.
Either way, I don't know anyone else who is pushing this codec to that high a data rate.

If you look at the properties of the clips from the 5D Mark II, you can clearly see that it’s H.264.

Oh that I could be so lucky ;-(

But getting back to the original topic of discussion...

What this confirms is that even if Canon didn't get all the bits and pieces fully baked for professional use, they certainly went for the gusto when it came to the codec+bitrate. All of which means these consumer oriented cams, at roughly a 1/3 of the price, are unlikely to measure up to the Canon 5D2 codec+bitrate. I would be VERY pleasantly surprised if they went over the 24 Mbps maximum specified for recording to tape. Of course, these don't record to tape, so why that is a concern/issue, I don't know, other than the raw processing power/silicon that it requires.

But it does provide a convenient stopping point for manufacturers targetting a consumer market.

What would be really cool would be for someone to run the HDMI output into something like the FlashXDR or the to-be NanoFlash and see what the results look like.

What I don't get is why Nikon doesn't come out swinging and make the perfect DSLR with video option. They don't have a video product line to protect and could make a killing if they'd do it right.

Lots of Canon owners are using Nikon glass anyway, why not sway them with a great camera?

Things they need to improve:

1) better codec or bitrate or both
2) little less skew please (faster read times)
3) full manual control over ISO, shutter, and aperture while in video mode
4) 1920 x 1080
5) 24p, 30p, 60i as options
6) mic input


Nikon is in perfect position to do this, Canon and Panny have to sell more expensive "proper" video cameras. I'll keep hoping.

The D300 have been out for a while so I suspect we shouldn’t have to wait long for a successor which should hopefully have an HD video mode.





http://nikonrumors.com/2009/02/04/ni...july-2009.aspx

Man, what a perfect way to say it. The other companies, sure, you can see why they keep the lid on the tech. But Nikon? No high end video products.

Perhaps they're simply doing the best they can wit what they have... or are waiting for the competition to wear themselves this year.

john

Japanese companies can be very aggressive, but also be very careful about the fights they pick.

In the early 1980's Yamaha Motor thought it would take on Honda in motorcycles. Honda responded by almost crushing Yamaha. My memory is that the head of Yamaha Motor was forced to apologize, personally, to Honda for his impudence, and then resigned. Not what you would call a proud moment. But once done, Honda relented, things went back to "normal" and Yamaha survived.

As things are now, Canon and Nikon are the two companies that are cleaning up in the camera/photography business, collectively commanding ~85% market share. Everybody else is fighting for scraps. I don't think Nikon is going to do anything that could and probably would trigger a market share war and hammer margins. Especially when the economy already stinks.

Of course if Nikon produces exactly what you want, I'll be very happy to be wrong.
But it is something to think about.

Thanks for the explanation Liza. I am sure you're right.

It's still annoying, because it means a good chunk of their 17 Mbps datastream is being wasted storing what are in fact redundant fields. Storage that could have been used for either higher quality at the same data rate or longer record times at the lower 'true' data rate.

Given that HDMI is an uncompressed output, I would have preferred in 24p mode they simply remembered to repeat properly the uncompressed fields they have already recently decoded and transmitted rather than baking the pulldown into the compressed datastream. Oh well.

By comparison, the Canon 5D2 can go straight for the codec+bitrate quality gusto because operating at 30p, it is doing precisely zero frame pulldown. So unless I'm missing something, this Panasonic ends up operating at an effective ~1/3 the bitrate of the Canon. How does everyone here think that will measure up and compare?

Actually doing a rough calculation, Both doing 1920x1080:
Canon 5D2, 42 Mbps, 30 frames/sec., so about 1.4 Mb/frame
Panny, after subtracting for pulldown, more like 14 Mbps, so 14 Mbps, 24 frames/sec., so about .583 Mb/frame.

If you don't like the numbers, tell me what I did wrong.

Just to be fair, another camera, doing 1920x1080i60 or 1920x1080p30
with 24 Mbps ends up with ~.8 Mbps / frame.

This should be close to where the Panasonic HMC150 and Canon Vixia HF S10 live.

What this comparison leaves out of course is the difference in lenses, sensor size, raw detail resolving power, depth of field characteristics, and low light sensitivity differences of the sensors. This is a comparison ONLY of what Panasonic has done with the codec.

On one webpage I saw quite a lot of adapters are already available to use a large range of lens types for the Micro four Thirds mount. I was surprised to see that even C-mount was included in the options. Now, I have several C-mount primes, so this is a very interesting possibility to explore. But I find it hard to believe that a C-mount designed for Super16mm can cover a Four Thirds sensors area? Is it really possible? I hope so...

The sensor size is listed as 18mm x 13.5mm.
I believe a Super16 frame is 12.5mm x 7.4mm frame size.
So using a Super16 lens may be like using a lens intended for an APS-C sensor on a Full Frame 35mm camera.

Sad but true...

Thanks Bill. It's complicated for me to know: some C-mounts are regular 16mm, having slightly less coverage than the Super16mm lenses. Then the camera itself has several aspect ratio options on the sensor, so exactly what size will the 16:9 video aspect ratio be? Hopefully, it will use the maximum sensor width and be cropped top/bottom. But strange that someone has made a C-mount adapter if it's not really usable (I can't remember what page I saw it on now -- I've recently been darting from different forums all over again, like I did when the D90 first came out, trying to nail down what my personal rig might be made up from if I got a G1H).

Well, I browsed a few photography forums and it seems some still photographers have already been using C-mount lenses on the Lumix G1, so this is very encouraging for us. This is what I learned:

The C-mount flange-to-film/sensor distance is 17.526mm, and for MFT it is 20mm. So any C-mount lens will have to intrude about 2.5mm into a MFT camera. Because EVF cameras have no mirror box this isn't such a problem. However, beware some C-mount lenses have extended optical elements beyond the lens threads, and this is a distance too far for the workings of the camera. Simplistically, if nothing extends past the lens thread, you will probably be ok.

This is not to say a particular lens will have a big enough lens circle (some older cine lenses have a very small diameter rear element). But since video is shot in the camera's 16:9 aspect ratio this gives the best chance of escaping corner vignetting. If you are framing for 1.85 or CinemaScope, you'll have even more cropping potential to clear a vignette from an otherwise useful lens.

There are so many different C-mount lenses out there, made over a long period of time, so personal recommendations about what works for MFT will be useful for people buying lenses unseen over the net. My usual C-mount advice is to be prepared for extra collimation costs for older lenses, and this may be even less forgiving when used on a densely packed camera sensor.

Sorry, forgot to include the links -- these were the two best sites I came across today (new to me) which you might find interesting:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/ (see the MFT section -- couldn't get direct link to work).

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=44

Another consideration I found out about C-mount/MFT adapters is that the designs include a stepped inner ring (to recess the C-mount lens). If the bottom barrel diameter of a C-mount lens is larger than the adapter ring, this will stop you being able to screw the lens fully home. In acknowledgement of this importance, the adapters often quote the diameter of the step ring (in the one's I have seen so far online, it's anything between 36.9mm to 37.2mm). So C-mount lens choice for the GH1 will be partly governed by this mechanical restriction (though some enthusiasts have already had a bit shaved off their lenses to solve this!). You have to physically measure the bottom barrel diameter of a lens because it's not usually something which will be quoted (doesn't normally matter), so this is another hurdle to be mindful of when buying.

So, if you can find a C-mount lens, that hopefully doesn't need expensive servicing, with a small enough barrel diameter to fit the adapter ring, without an overly extended rear optical element to plough into the internal buffering, which has a wide enough circle to cover 16:9 on the GH1 sensor without vignetting -- phew! -- then you should be good to go.

Sounds like a lot of hoops to jump through, but I'm encouraged that some of these still photographers have been surprised with the "character" of these older cine lenses. I thought the new Fujinon machine vision lenses for megapixel cameras might be a good bet (reasonable price, very sharp, no hunting around in the second hand market), but I think their lens barrel diameter might be too much for the current adapters for the reasons noted above. Perhaps someone could measure some? I'll shut up now...

The information I quoted is most of what I know about C-mount.
And the C standing for 'Cine'.

I ended up getting a nice mini-history of movie film formats.

Historic sub-35 mm Film Formats & Cameras

16 mm film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I thought it might be worth redoing these calculations given we now know the GH1 is NOT wrapping 24p inside a 60i container.

Actually doing a rough calculation, Both doing 1920x1080:
Canon 5D2, 42 Mbps, 30 frames/sec., so about 1.40 Mb/frame
Panny GH1, 17 Mbps, 24 frames/sec., so about .708 Mb/frame.
Canon Vixia HF S10, 24 Mbps, 30 frames/sec., so about .800 Mb/frame
Panasonic HMC150, , 24 Mbps, 30 frames/sec., so about .800 Mb/frame

So for Panny to crank the GH1 bitrate up, that will be next years model.
I still think u4/3rds would be a hell of a platform to build a real video camera around.
But that's probably just my imagination running wild.
On the other hand, this will be the first time I know of that a camera manufacturer specially designed a pair of lenses just for video work.